Harold Reynolds....this is why I like the NL game.... ? wtf

[blgridesagain]

Game 3/ top 2nd

KC had runners on 1st and 2nd no outs with the 7th place batter (Perez) up.
In the A.L. you figure maybe a SAC bunt but the game is at SF and no DH...the pitcher is due up this inning.

When it becomes obvious that Perez isn't bunting Harold Reynolds says something along the lines of:
"this is why I like the N.L. game, he (the pitcher) has a chance to get out of it"

I have news for Harold Reynolds - that is what I DISLIKE, alot, about the "N.L game".

I don't think it's exciting or "good baseball" watching a pitcher get out of a jam by getting out the opposing pitcher- ugh, nauseating,....and I also do NOT want to watch a guy (N.L. pitcher) come to bat WHO ISN'T PAID TO HIT..and the vast majority of the time, is a POOR HITTER.

Not only is he a very bad hitter, "he" usually strikes out about 40% of the time, isn't known as a speedy baserunner or base stealer, hardly ever hits a HR and his OBP is usually about the same as his BELOW .200 BA.

As Casey would say- you could look it up.
Year after year, the combined hitting numbers for pitchers comes in at approx:
.180 BA, .180 OBP - 40% strikeout rate...and this is with alot of SAC bunts.
lmao

Give me the DH any day, all day.
We don't need a pitcher in the lineup in order to see a SAC bunt. lol
I just hope the A.L. doesn't give in and do away with the DH....I doubt it...but they should really tell the N.L. to "stick it" !

 

[yankeesince59]

...when discussing the DH rule, I think most people are strongly on one side of the fence or the other.

...personally, I've never really liked the DH thing. Yeah it does provide more offense but at the same time it take a lot of the strategy out of the game too...just my 2 cents.

 

[blgridesagain]

My problem with the pitcher batting -

I really don't blame him....HE DOESN'T GET PAID TO "HIT".
He doesn't take alot of batting practice, nor do I think the teams would want any damage done to his hands,fingers,wrists taking BP...never mind that...lol

I don't need to see a lot of runs every game...I do want to see professional hitters or at least good at bats.
And don't discount baserunning. I know there will always be slow runners in lineups, but pitchers (vast majority) are notorious slugs on the bases and once again, I do not think teams benefit by or like to see their mult-million dollar pitchers running around and sliding on the base paths.


Here's a scenario - an ace pitcher (N.L.) gets his hand,finger or wrist broken by a pitch while he is at bat.
Not impossible - does this make sense? Remember, he doesn't earn his contract money with his bat.

Just my opinion. I realize there are fans who enjoy questioning whether or not to lift the pitcher for a pinch hitter and *double switches. I remember baseball before the DH.
I think it's counter-productive and usually is a *moot point.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Game 3/ top 2nd

KC had runners on 1st and 2nd no outs with the 7th place batter (Perez) up.
In the A.L. you figure maybe a SAC bunt but the game is at SF and no DH...the pitcher is due up this inning.

When it becomes obvious that Perez isn't bunting Harold Reynolds says something along the lines of:
"this is why I like the N.L. game, he (the pitcher) has a chance to get out of it"

I have news for Harold Reynolds - that is what I DISLIKE, alot, about the "N.L game".

I don't think it's exciting or "good baseball" watching a pitcher get out of a jam by getting out the opposing pitcher- ugh, nauseating,....and I also do NOT want to watch a guy (N.L. pitcher) come to bat WHO ISN'T PAID TO HIT..and the vast majority of the time, is a POOR HITTER.

Not only is he a very bad hitter, "he" usually strikes out about 40% of the time, isn't known as a speedy baserunner or base stealer, hardly ever hits a HR and his OBP is usually about the same as his BELOW .200 BA.

As Casey would say- you could look it up.
Year after year, the combined hitting numbers for pitchers comes in at approx:
.180 BA, 180 OBP - 40% strikeout rate...and this is with alot of SAC bunts.
lmao

Give me the DH any day, all day.
We don't need a pitcher in the lineup in order to see a SAC bunt. lol
I just hope the A.L. doesn't give in and do away with the DH....I doubt it...but they should really tell the N.L. to "stick it" !

I've always felt alot of Pitchers are often the best overall players on both sides of the field, prior to entering the Minor Lg systems of MLB Teams, where they don't continue to get quality time in the batters box.... Same all the way up to American Legion, some High Schools. Some of those Pitcher's go on to be pretty good hitters, who often help their cause with the bat and arm. Kershaw, Greinke (who insisted on being in the NL after his Brewer's stint).

Valenzuela and Hershiser were often Pinch Hitters on days they didn't pitch. Not a minus remark, ie, a lack of bench pinch hitters? Not at all. Fernando, Orel, even Juan Marichal, Drysdale, even Blue Moon Odom, loved to hit, long before the DH rule.


Here's a partial list of Pitchers who won Silver Sluggers:
most of these noted below earned multiple Silver Sluggers, thus there is hope, to put more emphasis on Pitchers not only re-fining the one dimension they earn their bread and butter with, ie, Pitching, refining a sniper accuracy. HOWEVER, the NL rule will never go away IMO. Not sure the AL DH will go bye bye either. Thus get those Young Guns in the batting cage, and "learn 'em sumfun- Boudreau"

F. Valenzuela
T. Glavine
O. Hershiser
S. Strasburg
C. Zambrano
L. Hernandez
M. Hampton
D. Robinson
B. Forsch (2nd largest beer gut for a Pitcher)
R. Rhoden (THE Largest gut of any Pitcher any era)



I do prefer the AL DH rules. Yet if I were to say both leagues need to adopt one or the other, I'd pick NL Pitcher's hit...! NO doubt, it makes for a complete game the way we were all taught....(and remember often the #1 SP was one of the best hitters)/

However I enjoy having double standards between leagues, as I love to see a Line UP of 9 Assasins in the AL.

IN the NL I like to see the pitcher come up, bunt or hit and run, some can do as much very adeptly. Or the strategy to use a Pinch Hitter, then choose a southpaw specialist reliever, if the Pinch hitter is a lefty, Less Ichiro and Matsui of course. Those two hit both Lefties and rightie pitchers equally. Just like a Pitcher should be adept in the batters box, and YES they do get paid to hit too. Otherwise they wouldn't be #9 in the batting order....

 

[blgridesagain]

Here are last year's (2013) combined "batting stats" for N.L. pitchers.
I choose N.L. pitchers because the N.L. insists THEY come to bat -
They are the pitchers who have to "hit". lol

.135 BA
.166 OBP
.174 SLG%

They had 4428 at bats and struck out 1868 times.
They stole a grand total of 8 bases.
In between those sac bunts and pinch hitters, there was alot of crap...alot.

We can look up this years totals, but I doubt it looks pretty.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Here are last year's (2013) combined "batting stats" for N.L. pitchers.
I choose N.L. pitchers because the N.L. insists THEY come to bat -
They are the pitchers who have to "hit". lol

.135 BA
.166 OBP
.174 SLG%

They had 4428 at bats and struck out 1868 times.
They stole a grand total of 8 bases.
In between those sac bunts and pinch hitters, there was alot of crap...alot.We can look up this years totals, but I doubt it looks pretty.

Walter Johnson 1925, at age 37 had the best hitting year of any pitcher IMO.
.433 B'Avg. 455/.557

Ferguson Jenkins had 6 HR's in 71. Zambrano tied Fergie's 6 HR single season record.

Don Larsen hit .306 with 4 HR's/ 13 RBI's and struck out only 9 times all year.

1921 Carl Mays hit .343 on the year. Carl Mays: .663 OPS, 5 HR, 110 RBI in 1199 PA

2011 Dontrelle Willis had a .387 B'Avg.

Jack Scott 1916-1929 had 4 years of batting .300 or higher

One of my favorite NL Pitcher HR's and Nolan Ryan hi-light film. When Nolan was batting in the Sweat-Dome, a high fastball came in chin high, with Ryan falling out of the batters box. His bat hit the ball, and out to the Left Field Pesky Pole, for the 2nd only HR in His Illustrious Career....!!!

 

[Rick2583]

IMO the only thing the DH has done has prolonged the aging players a chance to extend there careers.

 

[totus44]

...when discussing the DH rule, I think most people are strongly on one side of the fence or the other.

...personally, I've never really liked the DH thing. Yeah it does provide more offense but at the same time it take a lot of the strategy out of the game too...just my 2 cents.

It eliminates pitcher as batter strategy some of the time, elsewise pitcher removed for a PH which is equivalent to the DH. In the age of pitching specialist out of the pen, the strategic difference of DH or no-DH is essentiality mitigated. For those in Rio Linda...I'm saying that the so-called strategy of the NL game is over hyped.

 

[yankeesince59]

...nothing "so called" about it...it's factual. Part of the "strategy" in the NL is when and whether or not to remove a pitcher for a PHer in the first place.

 

[Hammerojustice]

Game 3/ top 2nd

KC had runners on 1st and 2nd no outs with the 7th place batter (Perez) up.
In the A.L. you figure maybe a SAC bunt but the game is at SF and no DH...the pitcher is due up this inning.

When it becomes obvious that Perez isn't bunting Harold Reynolds says something along the lines of:
"this is why I like the N.L. game, he (the pitcher) has a chance to get out of it"

I have news for Harold Reynolds - that is what I DISLIKE, alot, about the "N.L game".

I don't think it's exciting or "good baseball" watching a pitcher get out of a jam by getting out the opposing pitcher- ugh, nauseating,....and I also do NOT want to watch a guy (N.L. pitcher) come to bat WHO ISN'T PAID TO HIT..and the vast majority of the time, is a POOR HITTER.

Not only is he a very bad hitter, "he" usually strikes out about 40% of the time, isn't known as a speedy baserunner or base stealer, hardly ever hits a HR and his OBP is usually about the same as his BELOW .200 BA.

As Casey would say- you could look it up.
Year after year, the combined hitting numbers for pitchers comes in at approx:
.180 BA, .180 OBP - 40% strikeout rate...and this is with alot of SAC bunts.
lmao

Give me the DH any day, all day.
We don't need a pitcher in the lineup in order to see a SAC bunt. lol
I just hope the A.L. doesn't give in and do away with the DH....I doubt it...but they should really tell the N.L. to "stick it" !

...when discussing the DH rule, I think most people are strongly on one side of the fence or the other.

...personally, I've never really liked the DH thing. Yeah it does provide more offense but at the same time it take a lot of the strategy out of the game too...just my 2 cents.

I agree with both of you... I find that makes the game dreadfully boring & I agree most feel strongly one way or the other...

 

[blgridesagain]

Walter Johnson 1925, at age 37 had the best hitting year of any pitcher IMO.
.433 B'Avg. 455/.557

Ferguson Jenkins had 6 HR's in 71. Zambrano tied Fergie's 6 HR single season record.

Don Larsen hit .306 with 4 HR's/ 13 RBI's and struck out only 9 times all year.

1921 Carl Mays hit .343 on the year. Carl Mays: .663 OPS, 5 HR, 110 RBI in 1199 PA

2011 Dontrelle Willis had a .387 B'Avg.

Jack Scott 1916-1929 had 4 years of batting .300 or higher

One of my favorite NL Pitcher HR's and Nolan Ryan hi-light film. When Nolan was batting in the Sweat-Dome, a high fastball came in chin high, with Ryan falling out of the batters box. His bat hit the ball, and out to the Left Field Pesky Pole, for the 2nd only HR in His Illustrious Career....!!!

___________________________

These are isolated cases going back to the dead ball era.
Sure, there are pitchers who can "hit" and handle the bat.
Earl Wilson was another "good hitting pitcher".

There was thought of instituting a DH for the pitchers back in the 1920s
How about that old adage: he's a good hitter for a ptcher....that speaks for itself.

The Mets have two pitchers - Matt Harvey and Jacob deGrom who not only are terrific young pitchers, they can also hit some.
But I think over the long haul,day in and day out, the vast majority of the time, all we mostly see is an incompetent amatuer (doesn't earn his money with his bat OR glove and legs lol ) flailing away and making life easy for the opposing pitcher. lol

 

[Rick2583]

I've always liked the strategy of deciding late in the game of letting a pitcher hit or going to the bench BUT.........I've also enjoyed seeing some great aging players stick around a little longer because of the DH rule

 

[blgridesagain]

It's an interesting discussion - DH or no DH.
Some fans like the opportunity to question whether or not a pitcher should be lifted from the game for a PH, the potential to use more players off the bench during a game.
I would say most of the time (75%?) it's pretty much cut and dried for a MGR when to put a PH up there for the SP.
As I've said, I remember watching baseball when there wasn't a DH rule. lol

A.L. managers also have to make the "tough decision" when to pull the SP and go to the bullpen.
There is no PH situation making it an easy decision for HIM..and haven't we questioned Girardi and other A.L. MGRS at times for removing the SP? - especially when the reliever comes in and gives up costly hits? OF COURSE WE DO!
That's enough "strategy" for me regarding the SP. lol

Not to offend anyone, but I feel as if my intelligence is insulted watching these pitchers being mandated to bat when in FACT their gazillion dollar contracts aren't negotiated based on their BATTING,running or fielding skills.

It's an insult to the paying and viewing customer...it's a farce. IMO


And the DH isn't only for "aging players who can't do anything else"....it's a good tool to give your regular players a day off in the field while still having them in the lineup...it can also open up spots more often for a young players and/or MORE SPEED while one of your regulars is DH-ing.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

It's an interesting discussion - DH or no DH.
Some fans like the opportunity to question whether or not a pitcher should be lifted from the game for a PH, the potential to use more players off the bench during a game.
I would say most of the time (75%?) it's pretty much cut and dried for a MGR when to put a PH up there for the SP.
As I've said, I remember watching baseball when there wasn't a DH rule. lol

A.L. managers also have to make the "tough decision" when to pull the SP and go to the bullpen.
There is no PH situation making it an easy decision for HIM..and haven't we questioned Girardi and other A.L. MGRS at times for removing the SP? - especially when the reliever comes in and gives up costly hits? OF COURSE WE DO!
That's enough "strategy" for me regarding the SP. lol

Not to offend anyone, but I feel as if my intelligence is insulted watching these pitchers being mandated to bat when in FACT their gazillion dollar contracts aren't negotiated based on their BATTING,running or fielding skills.

It's an insult to the paying and viewing customer...it's a farce. IMO


And the DH isn't only for "aging players"....it's a good tool to give your regular players a day off in the field while still having them in the lineup...it can also open up a spot on the field and in the lineup more often for a young player while one of your regulars is DH-ing.

Actually, I got a thrill out of watching Greinke drive in the 1st Run in the PS. Then he scored the 2nd run. Not a bad game for a 3-2 game. Greinke, helped his own cause, the difference in the game.

BTW-Howya' gonna' rationalize Babe Ruth away.??? His re-assignment to RF is not rationalization. Had Ruth of been left on the mound, he'd still be a great hitter. Personally, I'd of left Ruth Pitching, and had him double duty in RF when he wasn't pitching. I can't help but think if anyone could of pulled it off in MLB, then it would be no doubt Ruth.

I know High School, even NCAA baseball is not MLB, yet, how many times have you seen a double switch: Pitcher comes off the mound, heads to a position, say RF, and plays the rest of the game out. It can be done with success. Perhaps not the wisest move, but it can and has been done.

 

[totus44]

...nothing "so called" about it...it's factual. Part of the "strategy" in the NL is when and whether or not to remove a pitcher for a PHer in the first place.

Strategically the numbers of possible moves that can be made during a game by either AL or NL mgr are the same. That's why I said "so-called" because people have the misperception that there are more possible moves in the NL. Black or White, both side of the chess board are equal, just one moves first.

Now what you guys are talking about are plausible moves....and there are he NL has the advantage. Case in point....your everyday 1B is DHing. Prior to the game beginning the guy playing 1B is injured and the mgr moves the DH to play in the field. That team have now lost the DH and plays with a P or PH in the DH slot. Thus total number of strategic moves are equivalent between AL and NL.

Just because their are strategic moves you don't often make, doesn't mean you should discount them.

 

[blgridesagain]

Strategically the numbers of possible moves that can be made during a game by either AL or NL mgr are the same. That's why I said "so-called" because people have the misperception that there are more possible moves in the NL. Black or White, both side of the chess board are equal, just one moves first.

Now what you guys are talking about are plausible moves....and there are he NL has the advantage. Case in point....your everyday 1B is DHing. Prior to the game beginning the guy playing 1B is injured and the mgr moves the DH to play in the field. That team have now lost the DH and plays with a P or PH in the DH slot. Thus total number of strategic moves are equivalent between AL and NL.

Just because their are strategic moves you don't often make, doesn't mean you should discount them.

______________________________

I believe the DH is also optional?

Anyway- speaking about the N.L. strategy (pitchers hitting or using a PH)....imo, from my vantage point, I think it's a bunch of overrated crap.. lol ..
...I can't believe I just said that. lol

How about your average basic 9th place batter in the A.L. (DH) lineups compared to the pitcher(NL)...
....want to guess which one is more adept and capable of making contact - having more speed and being able to put the ball in play during a hit-and-run play?
By the way...how often do you see N.L. managers put the runners in motion with the pitcher at bat? lmao.

 

[yankeesince59]

Case in point....your everyday 1B is DHing. Prior to the game beginning the guy playing 1B is injured and the mgr moves the DH to play in the field. That team have now lost the DH and plays with a P or PH in the DH slot.


... and how often does that really happen?...almost never...terrible example







.

...

 

[totus44]

...

OK now your just arguing for the sake of arguing. I said total possible moves vs plausible moves and demonstrated that the total possible moves are in fact equivalent. You're questioning plausible moves, which I did say are greater the way the NL plays.

But in terms of analysis of complete strategy...I'm right and you were not. Stop arguing and accept it. Posting more won't change the outcome.

You flip a coin 99 times and it keeps coming up heads. You may feel flip 100 should be tails, but the fact remains the outcome is still 50-50.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

___________________________

These are isolated cases going back to the dead ball era.
Sure, there are pitchers who can "hit" and handle the bat.
Earl Wilson was another "good hitting pitcher".

There was thought of instituting a DH for the pitchers back in the 1920s
How about that old adage: he's a good hitter for a ptcher....that speaks for itself.

The Mets have two pitchers - Matt Harvey and Jacob deGrom who not only are terrific young pitchers, they can also hit some.
But I think over the long haul,day in and day out, the vast majority of the time, all we mostly see is an incompetent amatuer (doesn't earn his money with his bat OR glove and legs lol ) flailing away and making life easy for the opposing pitcher. lol

I don't deny anything you said blg, not at all. The current states of Pitchers with horrible batting averages aren't a surprise.

As we were talking, often in Little Lg./ Pony Lg./ Babe Ruth Lg./ American Legion/ High School, Semi-Pro (AAU), even some Universities often have a pitcher who is often the Lg Leader in B'Avg. Less Unis, I see alot of Pitchers take up a position on the field, during their off pitching days. I did as much myself. Saw plenty of others do the same over my first two decades of enjoying playing ball.

These noted prior pitchers, are not from the dead ball era. Most of these guys noted, garnered more than 1 Silver Slugger award:


F.Jenkins
J. Marichal
D. Drysdale
O. Hershiser
F. Valenzuela
Kershaw
Greinke
D. Willis
F. Valenzuela
T. Glavine
S. Strasburg
C. Zambrano
L. Hernandez
M. Hampton
D. Robinson
B. Forsch (2nd largest beer gut for a Pitcher)
R. Rhoden (THE Largest gut of any Pitcher any era)

There are many others as well, just not as predominant compared to each position players avg B'Avgs.

IMO, alot of Pitchers being deprived batting time, or instruction, begins unecessarily in some H.S. and moreso in Unis-

I want the overall Ruthian Package.....I still believe in dreams too.... !

 

[3RA1N1AC]

madison bumgarner had 2 grand slams this year, hit 4 homeruns, and had an ops of .755 ops+ of 113

 

[3RA1N1AC]

makes you wonder why bochy is trotting juan perez out there as a pinch hitter lol

 

[blgridesagain]

post #19- Matt

As we were talking, often in Little Lg./ Pony Lg./ Babe Ruth Lg./ American Legion/ High School, Semi-Pro (AAU), even some Universities often have a pitcher who is often the Lg Leader in B'Avg. Less Unis, I see alot of Pitchers take up a position on the field, during their off pitching days.

______________________________

No doubt - at those levels, often pitchers are also good hitters.
Of course many of them are capable of holding their own with the bat if they continued to be everyday or semi regular players once they make it to the pro-level.
Then, guess what happens?
They become PROFESSIONAL PITCHERS who sign contracts as PITCHERS,
of course! (unless/until they develop arm trouble, or SUCK..ect).

Tho most often, I believe, it's the other way around where a position player in the minors converts for whatever reason to being a pitcher.

Anyway, once those young drafted pitchers become highly paid (signing bonuses ect) pro-pitchers, they are instructed, trained and carefully groomed to be pitchers- not everyday position players.
Their bread and butter, along with the team's bread and butter, comes from their pitching arms.
I know this isn't major news - but that's the way it is.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

post #19- Matt

As we were talking, often in Little Lg./ Pony Lg./ Babe Ruth Lg./ American Legion/ High School, Semi-Pro (AAU), even some Universities often have a pitcher who is often the Lg Leader in B'Avg. Less Unis, I see alot of Pitchers take up a position on the field, during their off pitching days.

______________________________

No doubt - at those levels, often pitchers are also good hitters.
Of course many of them are capable of holding their own with the bat if they continued to be everyday or semi regular players once they make it to the pro-level.
Then, guess what happens?
They become PROFESSIONAL PITCHERS who sign contracts as PITCHERS,
of course! (unless/until they develop arm trouble, or SUCK..ect).

Tho most often, I believe, it's the other way around where a position player in the minors converts for whatever reason to being a pitcher.

Anyway, once those young drafted pitchers become highly paid (signing bonuses ect) pro-pitchers, they are instructed, trained and carefully groomed to be pitchers- not everyday position players.
Their bread and butter, along with the team's bread and butter, comes from their pitching arms.
I know this isn't major news - but that's the way it is.

I understand such is so. Just saying IMO, more pitchers could improve their batting averages, a bit easier than we're giving them credit for.

Bumgarner's Grand Slam in Frisco this year, was the 1st grand slam in the Giants History in California. A Thing of beauty, but never the norm....

Then we get a Rick Ankiel....

 

[yankeesince59]

OK now your just arguing for the sake of arguing. I said total possible moves vs plausible moves and demonstrated that the total possible moves are in fact equivalent. You're questioning plausible moves, which I did say are greater the way the NL plays.

But in terms of analysis of complete strategy...I'm right and you were not. Stop arguing and accept it. Posting more won't change the outcome.

You flip a coin 99 times and it keeps coming up heads. You may feel flip 100 should be tails, but the fact remains the outcome is still 50-50.

......"I'm arguing just to argue"?

...and you're not?...since when did you become above reproach? You made a horrible comparison and I pointed it out...I asked a very simple question. "How often does your scenario actually happen?" ... Why no answer?

...and what exactly am I supposed to cave into and accept, your opinion?...forgive me if I don't also genuflect.


...the AL game vs the NL game are not even close to being the same...."50/50"?...sorry, but there's no way I'll buy into that. But yeah, you're right and I'm wrong...because, well, because you said so.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Strategically the numbers of possible moves that can be made during a game by either AL or NL mgr are the same. That's why I said "so-called" because people have the misperception that there are more possible moves in the NL. Black or White, both side of the chess board are equal, just one moves first.

Now what you guys are talking about are plausible moves....and there are he NL has the advantage. Case in point....your everyday 1B is DHing. Prior to the game beginning the guy playing 1B is injured and the mgr moves the DH to play in the field. That team have now lost the DH and plays with a P or PH in the DH slot. Thus total number of strategic moves are equivalent between AL and NL.

Just because their are strategic moves you don't often make, doesn't mean you should discount them.

Yin Yang, The Tao comes full circle.....variations to any point, from 360 degrees of approach, all in the presentation of comprehension. A ton more angles, to see a plethora of viewpoints, right down to one.


Life is like this-