Trade Hart/Winslow/Didi/Keon/pick or CJ/Norm/Nance/Roco?

[Wade Garrett]

The 3-0 start to the season is starting to become more epic than last years magical "4 game winning streak".

It's been a very fun 3 games, but lets see what the team looks like after 20 games before using these tiny size results to prove Cronins trades were good.

I currently stand by all my statements bashing Cronin's moves and the trades. If the Blazers are #1 in the West after 20 games I'll take it all back. Would love to be proven wrong.

Ahh...They will not be #1 after 20 games, pretty safe bet.
Shame that is your barometer, though.

 

[Wade Garrett]

I was there with ya Wade. Don't go solo fighting on your own now. Dalton was with ya all the way!

Right on, migo.

 

[blazerkor]

The 3-0 start to the season is starting to become more epic than last years magical "4 game winning streak".

It's been a very fun 3 games, but lets see what the team looks like after 20 games before using these tiny size results to prove Cronins trades were good.

I currently stand by all my statements bashing Cronin's moves and the trades. If the Blazers are #1 in the West after 20 games I'll take it all back. Would love to be proven wrong.

I still won't take back my position that the Clippers trade was and is a bad one. We sent out more talent than we brought back and we did so without getting any first round picks... we also did so way too early to be sure there weren't better trades out there for RoCo and Norm who obviously weren't a fit and should not have remained on the team. So regardless of how well we do unless Winslow on his own is out performing Norm and RoCo combined and he isn't, the trade was shitty and is still shitty.

The NOLA trade was salvaged with the move that brought us Jerami Grant and maybe that move was always guaranteed to happen.

I don't know if Cronin was solely to blame for the Clippers trade and it doesn't make me think that he'll shit the bed again by pulling the trigger way too soon on a bad trade but that is what happened and nothing that happens this season or going forward will change that.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

The only thing I would disagree with is Winslow. I like him better than Roco, and Nance. He is most definitely a rotation guy now that he is healthy. His BBIQ, defense, strength, and ballhandling for his position offset any lack of outside shooting IMO.
Love when he is on the floor.

If we are moving the ball, he is an asset for sure. However, last game I saw he and Dame passing the ball back and forth on the perimeter - they weren't really even guarding him.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Many posters here where making similar statements during the epic 4 game win streak last season, how the Blazers would be in the play in if not outright playoffs. Then the team finished with a historic amount of losses.

Umm...you're not really pointing to the results of blatant tanking as evidence opposing the addition-by-subtraction claim, are you?

 

[Pinwheel1]

So regardless of how well we do unless Winslow on his own is out performing Norm and RoCo combined and he isn't, the trade was shitty and is still shitty.

I would think that how well we do is the biggest factor.....assuming Winslow is in the rotation.

Small sample size but I watched two Clipper games so far and neither Norm nor Roco are currently fitting in. Again small sample size, but Norm was a -17 last night (lowest on the team) and Roco was 1-5 from the field.

 

[blazerkor]

I would think that how well we do is the biggest factor.....assuming Winslow is in the rotation.

Small sample size but I watched two Clipper games so far and neither Norm nor Roco are currently fitting in. Again small sample size, but Norm was a -17 last night (lowest on the team) and Roco was 1-5 from the field.

How well we do has a lot of variables that have nothing to do with the Clippers trade. Dame being the first. Grant being the second. Seems like Hart has a lot of value.

The fact remains that we gave up two players that have been highly productive during their careers for one player who is playing very productive ball for us now. Also, RoCo and Norm are giving the Clippers more minutes in their wins right now than Winslow and Keon are giving us in ours. We traded more talent for less talent and we didn't get back enough draft compensation to make up the difference. We did that before our hand was forced by the trade deadline. If people are not willing to admit that we made a bad trade even if we are better now because of other moving parts then they're fooling themselves.

 

[blazerfan11]

I still won't take back my position that the Clippers trade was and is a bad one. We sent out more talent than we brought back and we did so without getting any first round picks... we also did so way too early to be sure there weren't better trades out there for RoCo and Norm who obviously weren't a fit and should not have remained on the team. So regardless of how well we do unless Winslow on his own is out performing Norm and RoCo combined and he isn't, the trade was shitty and is still shitty.

The NOLA trade was salvaged with the move that brought us Jerami Grant and maybe that move was always guaranteed to happen.

I don't know if Cronin was solely to blame for the Clippers trade and it doesn't make me think that he'll shit the bed again by pulling the trigger way too soon on a bad trade but that is what happened and nothing that happens this season or going forward will change that.

Tell me what your opinion was (at the time) of Neil Olshey's trades for Normal Powell and Robert Covington.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

How well we do has a lot of variables that have nothing to do with the Clippers trade. Dame being the first. Grant being the second. Seems like Hart has a lot of value.

The fact remains that we gave up two players that have been highly productive during their careers for one player who is playing very productive ball for us now. Also, RoCo and Norm are giving the Clippers more minutes in their wins right now than Winslow and Keon are giving us in ours. We traded more talent for less talent and we didn't get back enough draft compensation to make up the difference. We did that before our hand was forced by the trade deadline. If people are not willing to admit that we made a bad trade even if we are better now because of other moving parts then they're fooling themselves.

If the players we gave up didn't fit as well with the players we have now, then it was a good trade. Period.
you are so caught up on little things. The talent level disparity you keep clinging to is obviously not what you think it is and the recent play and numbers prove it.
The roco we had was not valuable. At all. Cj has only as much value as someone is willing to pay. Find the player we could have had that would fit better than cj, that another team would have traded cj for, with comparable skills?
until you find that, your saying its a shitty trade is simply your opinion man.

Stop overthinking it and just get over it bro.

 

[HailBlazers]

RoCo and Norm are fools gold.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

How well we do has a lot of variables that have nothing to do with the Clippers trade. Dame being the first. Grant being the second. Seems like Hart has a lot of value.

The fact remains that we gave up two players that have been highly productive during their careers .

The fact remains we gave up two highly productive players during their careers. But are thier career numbers what they put up for us??
This argument is asinine. This is like saying we should have been able to trade melo for an all star because of his career production.
Their career production matters not. What matters is what they did with us, which was next to nothing.

 

[blazerkor]

Tell me what your opinion was (at the time) of Neil Olshey's trades for Normal Powell and Robert Covington.

I liked RoCo as an acquisition but thought that we overpaid (two firsts was too much it should have been one). I was also far more pissed when the Rockets flipped one of those picks and Ariza for Wood.

I was pissed about the Norm trade. I didn't understand why we would trade someone who had the size that we needed and was younger and trending up for an older guy who made us even smaller than we already were and we were already too small.

RoCo played well here, he just didn't play well for Chauncey. Norm was a bad fit from the beginning but just because players with a ton of talent and skill don't fit our system doesn't lower their value around the league where they could fit in.

 

[Pinwheel1]

How well we do has a lot of variables that have nothing to do with the Clippers trade. Dame being the first. Grant being the second. Seems like Hart has a lot of value.

The fact remains that we gave up two players that have been highly productive during their careers for one player who is playing very productive ball for us now. Also, RoCo and Norm are giving the Clippers more minutes in their wins right now than Winslow and Keon are giving us in ours. We traded more talent for less talent and we didn't get back enough draft compensation to make up the difference. We did that before our hand was forced by the trade deadline. If people are not willing to admit that we made a bad trade even if we are better now because of other moving parts then they're fooling themselves.

I guess combined, but last night Winslow gave us 25 minutes in our win, while Norm gave them 21 and Roco 14 in their loss.
And we still have players sitting on the bench that need minutes. (At the position that Norm would have played)

The bottom line is some embellished how bad the trade was, holding on to the fantasy that they would have gotten 1st round picks for them right before the deadline. I don't think they would have and we will never know for sure.

 

[blazerkor]

The fact remains we gave up two highly productive players during their careers. But are thier career numbers what they put up for us??
This argument is asinine. This is like saying we should have been able to trade melo for an all star because of his career production.
Their career production matters not. What matters is what they did with us, which was next to nothing.

Look at their stats while they were here and tell me they did next to nothing:
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2595516/norman-powell
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2490620/robert-covington

Now look at Winslow's stats during that same time frame:
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3135047/justise-winslow

Now whose argument looks asinine?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Look at their stats while they were here and tell me they did next to nothing:
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2595516/norman-powell
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2490620/robert-covington

Now look at Winslow's stats during that same time frame:
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3135047/justise-winslow

Now whose argument looks asinine?

Winslow is the only guy you are able to reference though?

you are looking at this in a vacuum instead of the big picture. Roco was a shell of himself and continues to be. Powell never fit and doesn't fit on his new team. The salary savings, etc

keep beating that drum if you want, but its pretty clear the trades have made us better and that equates to value.

 

[blazerkor]

I guess combined, but last night Winslow gave us 25 minutes in our win, while Norm gave them 21 and Roco 14 in their loss.
And we still have players sitting on the bench that need minutes. (At the position that Norm would have played)

The bottom line is some embellished how bad the trade was, holding on to the fantasy that they would have gotten 1st round picks for them right before the deadline. I don't think they would have and we will never know for sure.

We can't know for sure but we do know that the trade was made very early, so we can know that not all options were explored. Anything people want to say to justify this trade is revisionist bullshit in my opinion. We traded two guys that were very productive for us while they were here and we got back two guys that were hardly giving the Clippers anything. Just look at the stats previous to the trade. I'm not saying that RoCo and Norm should have stayed because they didn't fit well on the roster or in Chauncey's system, I'm just saying that if we were going to get back so little in return, it should have been right at the deadline after all other options had been exhausted.

 

[andalusian]

The fact remains that we gave up two players that have been highly productive during their careers for one player who is playing very productive ball for us now.

Let's be fair here, Roco was not a productive player for the Blazers, not really under Terry and especially not under Chauncy.

Also, RoCo and Norm are giving the Clippers more minutes in their wins right now than Winslow and Keon are giving us in ours.

Norm was excellent for the Clippers last year when there was no one really ahead of him in the rotation. His production so far this year (early) has been abysmal. They better hope he recovers because if he is not, they are better off not playing him. (He is shooting 25% from the field, 13% from 3, his PER is negative (that's rare).

Covington is marginally better than what he was in Portland under Terry, and they are paying $12m/year for that. So, if the question is: do you want to pay $30m a year for Covington and Powell or pay $5m a year for Winslow and Keon, that's a no question, the Winslow / Keon pair is a ton better. Even if we do not have the 6 times the salary production (assume they are all paid the same), the contributions of Winslow + Keon (nothing so far) for the Blazers this year are better than Covington (not as good as Winslow) and Powell (negative value, so far).

Now, I imagine that what we see from Winslow and Covington is not going to change much. I expect Powell to be better than what he is now, because what he is now makes Russel Westbrook (PER as of now of 8.6) seem like an efficiency god. Anything we get from Keon is a bonus this year, he has potential, but it will not be of importance this year unless we have horrible injuries. So, even if Norm goes back to his career efficiency (which is a little higher than what Winslow gives you now offensively and less than Winslow defensively) - even if it is twice the talent with Covington + Norm over Winslow, it is not worth 6 times the cost.

That trade was a fleecing of epic proportion in favor of Portland.

We traded more talent for less talent and we didn't get back enough draft compensation to make up the difference. We did that before our hand was forced by the trade deadline. If people are not willing to admit that we made a bad trade even if we are better now because of other moving parts then they're fooling themselves.

Even if that salary dump did not enable the trade for Jeremy Grant and resigning Ant + Nurk, you are wrong. A young Covington might have been very talented. The Covington of the last 3 years is not as good as Winslow is now and costs a lot more.

 

[blazerkor]

Winslow is the only guy you are able to reference though?

you are looking at this in a vacuum instead of the big picture. Roco was a shell of himself and continues to be. Powell never fit and doesn't fit on his new team. The salary savings, etc

keep beating that drum if you want, but its pretty clear the trades have made us better and that equates to value.

The Jerami Grant trade made us far far better. Combining that with the rest of what we did with NOLA did make us better. Norm and RoCo did not fit here, that's true... it's way too early to say how well they fit with the Clippers. Justise seems to be the kind of glue guy role player that fits in Chauncey's system very well but still it's a bit early to make that call solidly.

The fact remains that we gave up far more production than we got back... at the time especially but it remains the case right now. You can't do that in this league and still consider it a good trade unless you get draft compensation to make up the difference and we did not.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We can't know for sure but we do know that the trade was made very early, so we can know that not all options were explored. Anything people want to say to justify this trade is revisionist bullshit in my opinion. We traded two guys that were very productive for us while they were here and we got back two guys that were hardly giving the Clippers anything. Just look at the stats previous to the trade. I'm not saying that RoCo and Norm should have stayed because they didn't fit well on the roster or in Chauncey's system, I'm just saying that if we were going to get back so little in return, it should have been right at the deadline after all other options had been exhausted.

No, you don't know all options weren't explored. That is not a fact.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

The Jerami Grant trade made us far far better. Combining that with the rest of what we did with NOLA did make us better. Norm and RoCo did not fit here, that's true... it's way too early to say how well they fit with the Clippers. Justise seems to be the kind of glue guy role player that fits in Chauncey's system very well but still it's a bit early to make that call solidly.

The fact remains that we gave up far more production than we got back... at the time especially but it remains the case right now. You can't do that in this league and still consider it a good trade unless you get draft compensation to make up the difference and we did not.

We shall have to agree to disagree. But really. You should move on. Its done and over with. Beating this dead horse opinion isn't gonna change anything.

 

[blazerkor]

No, you don't know all options weren't explored. That is not a fact.

The fact that moves took place afterwards means that options changed... that's why good GMs are never the first to make trades because they know that the landscape changes the closer you get to the deadline.

It was Cronin's first move. We don't know the pressure or mandates that were coming from above him. I'm not trying to kill the guy for it. He pulled off the Grant trade which salvaged the NOLA trade. It's not like we're talking about trading all stars for scrubs. We just lost the trade and made that losing trade really early, so I think it sucked.

All of you guys can have your own opinions and base them off of what Dame, Jerami and Josh are doing more so than what Justise is doing compared to what Norm and RoCo are. To be honest it doesn't fucking matter because the trades have been made, we have what we have and I'm cool with what we have but that doesn't mean that we made a good trade with the Clippers.

 

[wizenheimer]

Well sure, just think if the team trades Dame right now for nothing, we could possibly be in a position to draft Wemba.

Or perhaps its a better strategy to maximize the return from outgoing players while simultaneously positioning a team to tank.

or perhaps it's better not be be dogmatically stubborn and unrealistic about the value of what the Blazers traded away (and yeah, that can cut both ways)

 

[blazerkor]

We shall have to agree to disagree. But really. You should move on. Its done and over with. Beating this dead horse opinion isn't gonna change anything.

The thing is that I am over it and then people have to start posting revisionist bullshit in here. Seriously, I'm cool with what we have opposed to what we had at this time last season but I think a healthy Dame has a helluva lot to do with that. So I don't care about those trades anymore. What's done is done.

I didn't bring this shit up and was just calling people out for acting like it was a good trade just because we're doing well. Us doing well does not make a trade we made good just like a team can make a great trade and still perform terribly because these things don't happen in a vacuum.

 

[Cugel]

I would like to see Keon out there for a bit, especially when Ant is struggling. I am a much bigger fan of Winslow than I ever was of Roco or Norm.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

I still won't take back my position that the Clippers trade was and is a bad one. We sent out more talent than we brought back and we did so without getting any first round picks... we also did so way too early to be sure there weren't better trades out there for RoCo and Norm who obviously weren't a fit and should not have remained on the team. So regardless of how well we do unless Winslow on his own is out performing Norm and RoCo combined and he isn't, the trade was shitty and is still shitty.

The NOLA trade was salvaged with the move that brought us Jerami Grant and maybe that move was always guaranteed to happen.

I don't know if Cronin was solely to blame for the Clippers trade and it doesn't make me think that he'll shit the bed again by pulling the trigger way too soon on a bad trade but that is what happened and nothing that happens this season or going forward will change that.

I disagree.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

How well we do has a lot of variables that have nothing to do with the Clippers trade. Dame being the first. Grant being the second. Seems like Hart has a lot of value.

The fact remains that we gave up two players that have been highly productive during their careers for one player who is playing very productive ball for us now. Also, RoCo and Norm are giving the Clippers more minutes in their wins right now than Winslow and Keon are giving us in ours. We traded more talent for less talent and we didn't get back enough draft compensation to make up the difference. We did that before our hand was forced by the trade deadline. If people are not willing to admit that we made a bad trade even if we are better now because of other moving parts then they're fooling themselves.

Not fooling myself. What kind of player do you think we could’ve gotten for Norm/RoCo? You act like we could’ve gotten KD and a FRP.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The problem with discussing these trades is that opponents and proponents are trying to evaluate using completely different criteria. One side is saying "Norm/Roco/CJ were productive enough here that they should have been able to return more; we got terrible value for them", while the other is saying "The players we received fit this team better than the players we sent out; the trade made the team better and that's all that matters". It's a classic process vs results paradigm clash where both sides can be wrong, both can be right, and they will never, never agree.

 

[andalusian]

I didn't bring this shit up and was just calling people out for acting like it was a good trade just because we're doing well. Us doing well does not make a trade we made good just like a team can make a great trade and still perform terribly because these things don't happen in a vacuum.

If a series of trades brings a team success, even if one of them on paper is not good (and on paper, given this year's performance and price, it was still good) - I say that the strategy had merit.

I am not going to critic a chef for choosing a less premium oil if he believed that oil will pair better with the meat. If the meal is good at the end, that's all that matters.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

We can't know for sure but we do know that the trade was made very early, so we can know that not all options were explored. Anything people want to say to justify this trade is revisionist bullshit in my opinion. We traded two guys that were very productive for us while they were here and we got back two guys that were hardly giving the Clippers anything. Just look at the stats previous to the trade. I'm not saying that RoCo and Norm should have stayed because they didn't fit well on the roster or in Chauncey's system, I'm just saying that if we were going to get back so little in return, it should have been right at the deadline after all other options had been exhausted.

We can't know for sure but we do know that the trade was made very early, so we can know that not all options were explored. Anything people want to say to justify this trade is revisionist bullshit in my opinion. We traded two guys that were very productive for us while they were here and we got back two guys that were hardly giving the Clippers anything. Just look at the stats previous to the trade. I'm not saying that RoCo and Norm should have stayed because they didn't fit well on the roster or in Chauncey's system, I'm just saying that if we were going to get back so little in return, it should have been right at the deadline after all other options had been exhausted.

How do you know all options had been exhausted? And how do you know there wasn’t competition for Winslow? Also if Billups said he wanted Winslow, why wait?

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

The thing is that I am over it and then people have to start posting revisionist bullshit in here. Seriously, I'm cool with what we have opposed to what we had at this time last season but I think a healthy Dame has a helluva lot to do with that. So I don't care about those trades anymore. What's done is done.

I didn't bring this shit up and was just calling people out for acting like it was a good trade just because we're doing well. Us doing well does not make a trade we made good just like a team can make a great trade and still perform terribly because these things don't happen in a vacuum.

Outcomes change perspectives. Regardless of you are stubborn or not.
Outcomes define value. Not projected futures. Not in this case anyhow.
The market set them at what they were at.
There is no revisionism going on. Just adjusted perspectives based on additional/recent information.