Haynes full of shit (no Nic 4 years, 46.5 Million) (confirmed)

[BrianFromWA]

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q64



Since we are releasing them before the season with their salary only partially guaranteed then only the salary that is guaranteed is counted against our cap.

Not so, as far as everything that you've given me to read on it. It seems there are 3 ways you're trying to get around the waiver thing:
1) By saying they'll just be waived/retired. We've already shown that any contract termination (other than ETO, which is not in place here) requires a waiver process and a 7-day period.
2) By saying it's a "buyout". The first step of a buyout involves a waiver process, then negotiation of player's payment.
3) By saying it's a "team option." But this more falls under the category of player salary protection, which is the only thing that applies that can be negotiated.

Some salaries are only partially guaranteed, and the guaranteed amount can change on specified dates. For example, $2.4 million of Lamar Odom's $8.2 million salary for 2012-13 was protected for lack of skill. Since the Los Angeles Clippers did not put him on waivers on or before June 29, 2012, Odom's compensation protection increased to full, meaning his entire $8.2 million salary became guaranteed.

In this view, originally the contract could've read "600k of Webster's 5.1M salary is protected for lack of skill. Since MIN did not put him on waivers on or before June 30, 2012, his compensation protection increased to full, ,and the entire 5.1M salary became guaranteed." Then there was a renegotiation in order to "facilitate trades." But according to Coon #60, you can't negotiate in a team option. You can negotiate the following:

To alter the amount of compensation protection -- i.e., the guarantee (see question number 62). This is commonly done as part of a buyout (see question number 65). [BFW note: a buyout requires a waiver process]
To eliminate an option or ETO (see question number 57). Note that eliminating an option does NOT constitute illegally shortening a contract, since an option year isn't considered part of the original term of a contract until it is invoked.[BFW Note: You can't create an option, only eliminate one]
To reduce the amount of a trade bonus (see question number 95), but only to the extent necessary to make a trade legal.[BFW Note: Not applicable here]
To waive set-off (see question number 64), which is commonly done in conjunction with a buyout (see question number 65).[BFW Note: Potentially applicable, but again, after the waiver process]
To alter the pay schedule (however, when a contract signed under the current CBA is terminated through the waiver process, the pay schedule is automatically "stretched" -- see question number 109).
To alter the window of time during which an option may be invoked (rare).[BFW Note: This is the clause that was used in this case to extend the non-guaranteed portion becoming guaranteed date]
To alter the list of outside activities in which the player is allowed to participate (rare).[BFW Note: N/a]
To change the section of the standard contract that permits the team to suspend the player if the player does not maintain sufficient physical condition.[BFW Note: N/a]

So there's a contract in place for 2012-2013 for both Webster and Miller. You can, up until the renegotiated date, place them on waivers and only have to pay the small guaranteed portion of their salary for 2012-13. This small portion will also be the cap hit, once they clear waivers.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Not so, as far as everything that you've given me to read on it. It seems there are 3 ways you're trying to get around the waiver thing:
1) By saying they'll just be waived/retired. We've already shown that any contract termination requires a waiver process and a 7-day period.
2) By saying it's a "buyout". The first step of a buyout involves a waiver process, then negotiation of player's payment.
3) By saying it's a "team option." But this more falls under the category of player salary protection, which is the only thing that applies that can be negotiated.
In this view, originally the contract could've read "600k of Webster's 5.1M salary is protected for lack of skill. Since MIN did not put him on waivers on or before June 30, 2012, his compensation protection increased to full, ,and the entire 5.1M salary became guaranteed." Then there was a renegotiation in order to "facilitate trades." But according to Coon #60, you can't negotiate in a team option.


So there's a contract in place for 2012-2013 for both Webster and Miller. You can, up until the renegotiated date, place them on waivers and only have to pay the small guaranteed portion of their salary for 2012-13. This small portion will also be the cap hit, once they clear waivers.

From what I've read, the team option has existed since the inception of the contract extension by the Blazers back in '08. The only thing that has been "negotiated" by the Wolves was the deadline date of exercising the option. It had been June 30th, and it was pushed back to (I assume) to July 31st.

 

[THE HCP]

Sly Poker Dog ‏@SlyPokerDog @jwquick Dwight @dwightjaynes has a source that says Kahn has handled this perfectly & is the greatest GM in the history of the NBA!

Nice one Dog! Like to of saw that myself........ but I refuse to follow any of the douchbags! (Canzano,Jaynes or Quick)

Funny thing is I know that Quick and Canzano both follow me for some reason..... maybe I'm one of their inside sources and don't even know it!

 

[Sinobas]

So the Kyle Korver deal is off?

 

[ironcrotch]

From Mike tokito

"By my math, TWolves at $43.4mil salary (haven't sign Roy yet). No reason they can't do Batum offer other than it's pointless. Am I wrong?

That's $43.4M by amnesty on Darko, but w/Webster, Miller still on books, and no Roy."

 

[BrianFromWA]

So other examples of contracts like this: Blazers' own Ryan Gomes.

The team has until 3 p.m. Tuesday to waive Gomes or pick up a team option, which would guarantee his contract through the 2010-13 season.

The Trail Blazers waived forward Ryan Gomes Tuesday afternoon, less than a week after they acquired him in a trade during the NBA draft.

I can't find one so far that says a team declined to pick up a team option with guaranteed salary and the player didn't go through the waiver process.

 

[MickZagger]

I'm not in the problem solving kind of mood. I've just been skimming this long thread. Can someone in a sentence, or two, explain how Kahn is shooting himself in the foot right now?

Is it because he's waiving players and creating cap room when the Blazers are going to match anyways?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So other examples of contracts like this: Blazers' own Ryan Gomes.



I can't find one so far that says a team declined to pick up a team option with guaranteed salary and the player didn't go through the waiver process.

Other examples of team options--the 3rd and 4th years of 1st round picks' rookie contracts. I don't recall hearing anything about the waiver process after Flynn and Thabeet's contracts ended. Is the "partial guarantee" the material difference here?

 

[BrianFromWA]

it's because he's trying to bluff with a big offer sheet that he physically can't offer until Web and Miller are waived and clear waivers 7 days later. And if he does waive two assets, and we match anyway, he'll look dumb.

 

[MickZagger]

it's because he's trying to bluff with a big offer sheet that he physically can't offer until Web and Miller are waived and clear waivers 7 days later. And if he does waive two assets, and we match anyway, he'll look dumb.

Gotcha.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Other examples of team options--the 3rd and 4th years of 1st round picks' rookie contracts. I don't recall hearing anything about the waiver process after Flynn and Thabeet's contracts ended. Is the "partial guarantee" the material difference here?

I think so. Recall, Blake's team option had no guarantee, and that's why the Clips just didn't pick it up after the Camby trade. But the partial guarantee requires a waiver process.

If you think about it, it's player protection. What if some team really did want to pay Webster the 5M remaining on his contract. Would the NBAPA allow a team to just cut a player without letting him see if he got a bite on the rest of his deal?

 

[blazedanugz]

it's because he's trying to bluff with a big offer sheet that he physically can't offer until Web and Miller are waived and clear waivers 7 days later. And if he does waive two assets, and we match anyway, he'll look dumb.

so he fucked up big time? does this mean we will be able to sign batum for cheaper in any way?

 

[Sedatedfork]

Gotcha.

Also there is one report that he has moved on to Courtney Lee since the Blazers won't accept his offer for S&T

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If you think about it, it's player protection. What if some team really did want to pay Webster the 5M remaining on his contract. Would the NBAPA allow a team to just cut a player without letting him see if he got a bite on the rest of his deal?

Not.

Swayed.

This same logic would apply to TOs on rookie contracts, but it doesn't.

Recall, Blake's team option had no guarantee, and that's why the Clips just didn't pick it up after the Camby trade. But the partial guarantee requires a waiver process.

I think this is the one point of contention, and something that would need to be answered by someone more knowledgeable than you or me (anyone know if Joe Cronin's on twitter?)

 

[BrianFromWA]

More on this: same year that Steve Blake had a team option with no guarantee, he didn't show up on the NBA transactions for the team option not being invoked, he just was signed by the L*kers on July 8. But Ryan Gomes (since he had partial guarantee money) had to be "waived" by the Blazers.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Not.

Swayed.

This same logic would apply to TOs on rookie contracts, but it doesn't.

b/c it's specifically called out to not do so.

I think this is the one point of contention, and something that would need to be answered by someone more knowledgeable than you or me (anyone know if Joe Cronin's on twitter?)

No idea.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

I understand all this...but what i cant wrap my head around is this "Bluff"

A bluff means that your opponent has no idea what it is you have, but this is not a Bluff because even guys like us can see right through Kahns plans, let alone Cronin (professionals). So i still dont understand their rationale. Are they THAT stupid?

 

[Ricky Business]

Like I quoted previously:

A player released July 1 to August 14 stays "on waivers" for seven days. A player released between August 15 and June 30 of the following year stays on waivers for 48 hours.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q63

I believe this may be part of the extension that they filed. Given Kahn's and Taylor's background and Taylor's position as the chairman the board of governors, there is no way that they overlooked anything that we could figure out.

 

[Ricky Business]

I understand all this...but what i cant wrap my head around is this "Bluff"

A bluff means that your opponent has no idea what it is you have, but this is not a Bluff because even guys like us can see right through Kahns plans, let alone Cronin (professionals). So i still dont understand their rationale. Are they THAT stupid?

They are not that stupid. We are overlooking something.

 

[Further]

Really, if all this is correct the person who screwed up the most is batums agent. He let his client ask out of a town to go to a team that promised to make a huge offer to him withou doing the research about Kahn or the timberwolves and their financial situation. During this time, he could have been fielding offers from honorable teams with money to spend. But now, the money has dried up and the blazers are in control unless batum wants to accept the QO.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I don't get what you mean. If they're waived before August 15, it takes 7 days. Are you saying that they're extending the date out to the 16th of August so that it only takes 48 hrs? Fine, but that doesn't help them get cap space to sign Nic until that time. They can't extend the "june 30" date from last year b/c that's a CBA violation. Just like they can't renegotiate to sign a contract during the moratorium. You can't contravene CBA rules.

 

[BrianFromWA]

They are not that stupid. We are overlooking something.

Then tell me what, Ricky. CBA spells things out pretty clearly, Coon expounds on it, and two deadlines from Kahn have come and gone and there's still no offer sheet to Nic submitted to the league. Did he just forget to send in the signed offer sheet?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Nice one Dog! Like to of saw that myself........ but I refuse to follow any of the douchbags! (Canzano,Jaynes or Quick)

Funny thing is I know that Quick and Canzano both follow me for some reason..... maybe I'm one of their inside sources and don't even know it!

LOL! Thanks HCP, that's high praise coming from you. Hard to believe but Quick has been the voice of reason in all of this on Twitter. Jaynes has made an absolute fool of himself during the Batum saga and unfortunately so has Chris Haynes who I was starting to like before this.

Hey, do me a favor. I was trading tweets with @sarahhechtNBA last night. She's never seen The Wire and isn't sure if it's any good. Tweet her and tell her to watch it.

 

[john2jer]

it's because he's trying to bluff with a big offer sheet that he physically can't offer until Web and Miller are waived and clear waivers 7 days later. And if he does waive two assets, and we match anyway, he'll look dumb.

I think some of you guys are making a bigger deal of Miller/Webster as "assets". They're assets because they can be cut to create cap space. As far as the Wolves are concerned, they were bigger assets before July 1st. Now what is an asset is the cap space they can create. Doesn't matter if that's cap space for the Wolves to absorb salary or for a receiving team to become cap space.

I'm shocked the Wolves didn't trade them on draft day for an established player already on a contract. Since they didn't, they should have just cut them. Teams would rather have straight cap space than a guy they have to cut.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

One more thing that everyone is forgetting about is Batum said he won't scrimmage or play games with Team France until he has a contract. The longer this drags out the more it's going to hurt him for the Olympics this summer. He's waiting for Kahn to summit the offer more than anyone else is.

 

[blazedanugz]

Jerry Zgoda ‏@JerryZgoda

Latest from T.C.: Looks like Thurs will come & go with no offer sheet sent to Blazers and no S-T, although there was lots of talk about both

 

[THE HCP]

Sarah is vanilla ice cream! I know her well and The Wire is not her style. The most gangster she would get would be Carlton from The Fresh Prince......

 

[THE HCP]

Jerry Zgoda ‏@JerryZgoda

Latest from T.C.: Looks like Thurs will come & go with no offer sheet sent to Blazers and no S-T, although there was lots of talk about both

Thanks for the tweet....... but what is T.C.?

 

[Rhal]

I think some of you guys are making a bigger deal of Miller/Webster as "assets". They're assets because they can be cut to create cap space. As far as the Wolves are concerned, they were bigger assets before July 1st. Now what is an asset is the cap space they can create. Doesn't matter if that's cap space for the Wolves to absorb salary or for a receiving team to become cap space.

I'm shocked the Wolves didn't trade them on draft day for an established player already on a contract. Since they didn't, they should have just cut them. Teams would rather have straight cap space than a guy they have to cut.

There has to be something no one is seeing that has to do with them. At the moment it looks like its a 7 day waiting period for the capspace waiving them will create, I'm sure most teams would rather have a
TE then a guy they can cut for salary.
As much as we make fun of Khan he can't be as stupid as were making him out to be.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Sarah is vanilla ice cream! I know her well and The Wire is not her style. The most gangster she would get would be Carlton from The Fresh Prince......

Hahahahaha!

Well if she likes Carlton she'll love Brother Mouzone!