OT Healthcare

[Orion Bailey]

You're comparing a triage situation with a typical healthcare situation.
These are not the same. But yes, in an emergency triage situation (meaning not enough care for both) if you have to choose between giving a heart transplant to a 600 lb person and a 180 lb person you would give it to the 180 lb person.

Completely agree. The operation has a far higher chance of success.

Just like the unvaccinated are currently CAUSING the shortage of healthcare, choosing to disregard the advice and pleas of healthcare workers, so every person who is following medical advice to limit the shortage should be given a bed, even if that means denying a bed to a person who chose to disregard medical advise until they were on their death bed.

Absolutely. I'm glad we agree on these points.

but its still a personal choice to try to be healthy or not. I do not believe others should be held accountable for those who do not CHOSE to live a healthy life.
In a country continually trying to make things easier for ourselves to avoid physical exertion, to me this should absolutely be a factor as to who should be a priority to get health car and who should pay for it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

What exactly are you referring to here?

sorry. Meant to quote @julius on that comment.
Going too fast on my phone and messing up.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It's possible your employer and their provider have that agreement. I've never taken a survey that included a question about smoking for healthcare, so I assume my company doesn't do that. Or maybe I just don't pay attention since I don't smoke? So I guess I could be misremembering on the smoking point.

But again, that is somebody choosing to put a known poison into their body. Totally different than somebody with diabetes or who eats unhealthy food that the government subsidizes to make more affordable for the masses (like your potato chip example).

And again, under my proposal, every American would be paying the same as they are currently paying or less (there would be no premiums).

maybe sometime when shit opens up more, if you are interested, ill take you to a game and we can arrive early and talk more in person about all of this. Its sometimes hard to keep up im this forum with multiple convos.
I do respect your opinions Nd ideas, even if i may not agree with them but then some of my disagreements may also be misunderstandings of ones opinion aNd vice versa.
If your down, id love to do that.

 

[Phatguysrule]

but its still a personal choice to try to be healthy or not. I do not believe others should be held accountable for those who do not CHOSE to live a healthy life.
In a country continually trying to make things easier for ourselves to avoid physical exertion, to me this should absolutely be a factor as to who should be a priority to get health car and who should pay for it.

It's expensive to be healthy. Our government subsidizes unhealthy foods. Our cities are not walkable, our commutes are long. There a hundreds of things that cause our population to have an unhealthy weight. There is no way to know if somebody has an unhealthy weight because of a mental condition, and we don't yet understand how this is impacted by the microbiome in our gut.

Many people try to be healthy yet cannot get it done because they work long hours and have children which, take a lot of time. Which can result in not having time to prepare healthy meals. Then at the end of the day don't have the energy to exercise. Or they become injured and can't be as active, and don't have insurance or the ability to take time off to get treatment.

If there were a free shot that took 30 minutes to get and would keep you at a healthy weight for a year, then your comparison to the covid-19 vaccine or smoking would be legitimate. Nobody has to buy cigarettes. You have to buy food.

You can't account for the reasons or control the weight of your population. This is a far too complicated and private issue.

You can only try to make public policy which encourages healthy behaviors. Ironically, this is far easier to do in a country with universal healthcare.

 

[Phatguysrule]

maybe sometime when shit opens up more, if you are interested, ill take you to a game and we can arrive early and talk more in person about all of this. Its sometimes hard to keep up im this forum with multiple convos.
I do respect your opinions Nd ideas, even if i may not agree with them but then some of my disagreements may also be misunderstandings of ones opinion aNd vice versa.
If your down, id love to do that.

It sounds fun, though I rarely have time to attend games during basketball season. I've been to 1 game in the last 6 years. I have 3 kids playing basketball, am usually coaching at least one of their teams, and as such have no spare time.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It's expensive to be healthy. Our government subsidizes unhealthy foods. Our cities are not walkable, our commutes are long. There a hundreds of things that cause our population to have an unhealthy weight. There is no way to know if somebody has an unhealthy weight because of a mental condition, and we don't yet understand how this is impacted by the microbiome in our gut.

Many people try to be healthy yet cannot get it done because they work long hours and have children which, take a lot of time. Which can result in not having time to prepare healthy meals. Then at the end of the day don't have the energy to exercise. Or they become injured and can't be as active, and don't have insurance or the ability to take time off to get treatment.

If there were a free shot that took 30 minutes to get and would keep you at a healthy weight for a year, then your comparison to the covid-19 vaccine or smoking would be legitimate. Nobody has to buy cigarettes. You have to buy food.

You can't account for the reasons or control the weight of your population. This is a far too complicated and private issue.

You can only try to make public policy which encourages healthy behaviors. Ironically, this is far easier to do in a country with universal healthcare.

Mthe one main argument or point of contention i have is o think better, more long term planning should go into having more than one child.
Meaning many peolple with multiple children couldnt afford thing prior to having a third, fourth , or fifth child. Where is the societal morality regarding that?

China has had a child max limit. Not saying we have to have that but it certainly should be a topic of discussion when discussing what families can and cant afford.

It sounds fun, though I rarely have time to attend games during basketball season. I've been to 1 game in the last 6 years. I have 3 kids playing basketball, am usually coaching at least one of their teams, and as such have no spare time.

well we will just have to figure it out! Bring one of the games down as a post game game played at the moda!

have those here connect with the Blazers make it happen!

In all seriousness a game would be great but doesn't have to be a game.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Mthe one main argument or point of contention i have is o think better, more long term planning should go into having more than one child.
Meaning many peolple with multiple children couldnt afford thing prior to having a third, fourth , or fifth child. Where is the societal morality regarding that?

China has had a child max limit. Not saying we have to have that but it certainly should be a topic of discussion when discussing what families can and cant afford.

The policies I've advocated for result in fewer children by encouraging more responsible and healthier behavior.

Secure, educated people don't tend to have as many children.

Universal Healthcare specifically reduces teen birth rates and results in less abortion

 

[Orion Bailey]

The policies I've advocated for result in fewer children by encouraging more responsible and healthier behavior.

Secure, educated people don't tend to have as many children.

Universal Healthcare specifically reduces teen birth rates and results in less abortion

ohh i agree with this and am glad to see links(i havent opened yet) supporting this.
In the end i don't think universal health care is the first step. First step is a healthier lifestyle. Get that on track first and then were onto something. Maybe the links say this as well. Ill read up on them tonight.

 

[Phatguysrule]

ohh i agree with this and am glad to see links(i havent opened yet) supporting this.
In the end i don't think universal health care is the first step. First step is a healthier lifestyle. Get that on track first and then were onto something. Maybe the links say this as well. Ill read up on them tonight.

Waiting for every person to do what you want before enacting logical public policy is just an excuse to continue with harmful public policy. It'll never happen.

So what's the benefit of waiting?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Vaccines are free.

But many people don't want to take the vaccines. Hence we fall back to healthcare and the healthcare system. And the education system which has failed us enough to put us in this situation.

And politics for that matter.

 

[Chris Craig]

good find. I would have thought they eat healthier. When i e traveled over the border fast food venues seemed harder to find.
With that said. You hit on my point. Canadians pay more in taxes. So regardless the per person cost they still pay more in taxes. So it costs more. And they are able to pY more taxes for that because they dont have to be taxed to pay for a military because we basically take care of them for them. Like many counties who have more universal type health care, their taxes will be more to pay for it.

and that's been my point of contention. How do we provide health care for all without raising the taxes. Do that and im all for it. But i havent seen anything conclusive that it can be done without cutting funding dramatically in other areas.
Now thats certainly a good topic of discussion there, but without it, i don't see it as a realistic possibility.



And then again. Making one person pay for another persons lack of caring for themselves is not right in my opinion. Only if the person is physically or mentally unable to do so, should others step up.

The healthcare system the US uses is far more costly than the universal healthcare system in Canada and other countries that use it.

Universal healthcare would provide equitable access. Emergency rooms are inundated with people daily. Patients without insurance are treated differently than those with it. The level of care differs to a point that those without insurance often return again and again because they dont recieve adequate treatment.

For people without insurance, doctors are far less likely to do more expensive tests. With Universal Healthcare, everyone would get the same level of treatment. Imagine the millions of returning patients not returning because they received the right treatment the first time. How much money would that save? How much more space would hospitals have? The cost of returners is immense, far greater than the cost of UH. And you and I and everyone are paying for that already.

Universal healthcare also would provide a greater focus on preventative care. This too would cut the numbers of the sick dramatically.

Countries with universal healthcare are healthier for the most part. If you look at European countries with universal healthcare or Japan, they have longer life expectancies. That health isn't just about diet, it's about stress. People under universal healthcare are far less stressed. Stress is a big factor in people getting sick. They have healthier workforces because they dont have to worry about medical debt or how they will pay for a medical issue if it should happen.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/mark...urity/government/health/universal-health-care

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7692272/#:~:text=Universal healthcare in the U.S., which may or may not,economic costs associated with said

The cost is a good question. The easy answer is tax the rich.

We could also use taxes from cigarettes, alcohol, and the burgeoning Marijuana market as funding for UH.

Maybe a junk food tax. It's nickels and dimes but it will add up.

How about a piece of the lottery profits?

These are a few ideas. There are other methods securing funding through social contribution.

Many are so willing to donate to healthcare costs of others via go fund me. Why not a go med me on a greater scale?

 

[julius]

It's funny to me that people don't want to "subsidize" others for their health status (etc), but we're perfectly fine having the vaccine subsidized by the government.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

People who have had covid are going to have more health problems and greater healthcare costs as a group vs people who haven't had covid.

We need to immediately raise their health insurance rates.

 

[Chris Craig]

Lets put it another way. Most of you who disagree with my opinion would consider the following to be perfectly fine.
An unvaccinated person should not get help before a vaccinated person if they get covid and meed health care.

How can this same thought process not be equated to other health risks?

a person who eats potato chips all day shouldn't get help before someone who eats fruits and vegetables. Or they should pay more.


If one doesn't agree with that them there is a serious double standard going on.
Ill just leave it at that.

They should get the same help.

If two people come in with covid and one took the vaccine and the other did not they should still both get the same help.

If two people come in terribly sick with covid, like on the edge of death and there is only one bed and one ventilator and you can only save one, you are going to save the one most likely to survive. vaccinated vs non vaccinated may play a part in that. It might not. The vaccinated person might be far worse off, closer to death, and the non vaccinated person could get the ventilator because they have a better chance to survive. Or vice versa. A vaccinated person in that condition though likely has better odds than the non vaccinated.

Potato chips vs not potato chips isn't a great apology to pair with that though I see where you were going.

I will say a potato chip eater should get the same help as a health nut.

That's one of the problems with our healthcare system. An unequitable service of care. The level of healthcare a person gets should not be dependent on financial status.

Don't even get me started on the price of prescription medicines which highlights the other big elephant in the room of our healthcare system. It focuses on maintenance not cures because there is no money in cures. The money is in keeping people sick and and need of more and more medications.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Waiting for every person to do what you want before enacting logical public policy is just an excuse to continue with harmful public policy. It'll never happen.

So what's the benefit of waiting?

Is it waiting? or transitioning the focus on healthy lifestyle first health care second instead of the opposite?

 

[Orion Bailey]

They should get the same help.

If two people come in with covid and one took the vaccine and the other did not they should still both get the same help.

If two people come in terribly sick with covid, like on the edge of death and there is only one bed and one ventilator and you can only save one, you are going to save the one most likely to survive. vaccinated vs non vaccinated may play a part in that. It might not. The vaccinated person might be far worse off, closer to death, and the non vaccinated person could get the ventilator because they have a better chance to survive. Or vice versa. A vaccinated person in that condition though likely has better odds than the non vaccinated.

Potato chips vs not potato chips isn't a great apology to pair with that though I see where you were going.

I will say a potato chip eater should get the same help as a health nut.

That's one of the problems with our healthcare system. An unequitable service of care. The level of healthcare a person gets should not be dependent on financial status.

Don't even get me started on the price of prescription medicines which highlights the other big elephant in the room of our healthcare system. It focuses on maintenance not cures because there is no money in cures. The money is in keeping people sick and and need of more and more medications.

Our pharmacudical system needs major updates no doubt.

i also agree the potTo chip eater and health nut should get the same care. But the potato chip should have to pay more into the system than the health nut.

Its not fair to ask the health nuts to pick up the extra financial burden the potato chip will innevitably cause.

 

[noknobs]

People who have had covid are going to have more health problems and greater healthcare costs as a group vs people who haven't had covid.

We need to immediately raise their health insurance rates.

Yeah suck on that, Orion Bailey.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think people keep mixing up choice.
Some health issues are not based on s personal choice. Those are not part of my equation.
Im speaking of innately healthy people that choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Please note the distinguishment im calling out here.
I see some posts not taking this into count.

 

[Chris Craig]

Our pharmacudical system needs major updates no doubt.

i also agree the potTo chip eater and health nut should get the same care. But the potato chip should have to pay more into the system than the health nut.

Its not fair to ask the health nuts to pick up the extra financial burden the potato chip will innevitably cause.

Like I said, implement a junk food tax. I would gladly pay 5 or ten cents extra on that bag of chips or cookies if I knew it was going to universal healthcare

 

[Orion Bailey]

Yeah suck on that, Orion Bailey.

im fully vaxxed and was long before i tested postive. So suck on that!

 

[Orion Bailey]

Like I said, implement a junk food tax. I would gladly pay 5 or ten cents extra on that bag of chips or cookies if I knew it was going to universal healthcare

There ya go. See? So the people who choose to take risks pay more. Thats all ive been saying….

 

[noknobs]

im fully vaxxed and was long before i tested postive. So suck on that!

Doesn't matter, you got it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Doesn't matter, you got it.

if it doesnt matter the. Neither does the post you wuoted be suse it isnt what i said… at all


Geez man.
What do peolle not understand about chosen risks im lifestyles?


How hard is it to differentiate someone born with diabetes over someone who likes to sit all day and eat shit food?


I know some of you are capable of differentiating so some of these posts are just ridiculous.

 

[noknobs]

I think people keep mixing up choice.
Some health issues are not based on s personal choice. Those are not part of my equation.
Im speaking of innately healthy people that choose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Please nite the distinguishment im calling out here.
I see some posts not taking this into count.

Julius literally asked you, "so should someone who was born with diabetes, did nothing to cause it and their only behavior that created the situation was simply being born, be forced to pay for?"

You replied, "yes. Its unfortunate but its reality."

 

[Orion Bailey]

Ill say it again.
Im not for paying into a system that doesn't hold people accountable for the chosen risks they take without there being some sort of sliding scale or risk tax that only goes towards those choosing that risk. this has nothing to do with born illnesses, etc.

hopecully that is clear enough for some of you

 

[Orion Bailey]

Julius literally asked you, "so should someone who was born with diabetes, did nothing to cause it and their only behavior that created the situation was simply being born, be forced to pay for?"

You replied, "yes. Its unfortunate but its reality."

i thought that is what the current system is. And i said yes its unfortunate but that reality.
I didn't say thats my plan.

and i made about five more posts clarifying this….

 

[noknobs]

i thought that is what the current system is. And i said yes its unfortunate but that reality.
I didn't say thats my plan.

His question clearly has the word "should". It was asking your opinion on the matter, not what the current system is.

Shocker you had reading comprehension problems. That's never happened before.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Since all of us are concerned about our health and healthcare let me give you a GIANT PRO TIP that I discovered on my own due to my own obsessiveness.

Before you go in for your annual physical call your doctor and ask for him to send in the request for lab work.

Then go in and get your lab work down a few weeks BEFORE you see your doctor.

All too often you see your doctor and during that visit he orders labs.

He gets the results but doesn't really discuss them with you unless there is something bad.

By having the results available to your doctor BEFORE you see him you can have better discussions about the results. How diet and/or exercise can make small improvements. How adjustments to medications or supplements like vitamins can help or prevent future problems.

It means 2 trips to your doctor but the knowledge about your health will be more complete during the short amount of time you are seeing your doctor.

 

[riverman]

were all entitled to our own opinions.
Mine being i dont want to pay for other peoples unhealthy habits is by far not isolated and is indeed a widespread consensus among many.
I could also say that anyones stance that tbinks i should have to pay for someone else who wants to eat potato chips and ice ream all day is complete bullshit too.
Who actually thinks they have the right or is in the dight demanding one person to lay for another persons consequences when making open conscious decisions that hinder their health?

thats complete bullshit to think i should have to do that.

OB it's more than just obesity or smoking...tobacco taxes are really high for smokers as it is but taxes pay for wheelchair accessibility and toilet stalls...where do you stop contributing to things that help disabled with your tax dollars regarless of how they got that way...or mental illness which leads to obesity in some cases..I don't think it's humane to exclude anyone from public health and I think it's no big deal for those with the ways and means to contribute to do so...tax dollars are spent on many less important things that you nor I benefit from as it is...America is one of the few countries in the world where you can eat yourself to death...those you pay for almost inevitably have shorter life spans than non smoking or healthier citizens..it works out anyway for the collective benefit of humanity

 

[Chris Craig]

OB it's more than just obesity or smoking...tobacco taxes are really high for smokers as it is but taxes pay for wheelchair accessibility and toilet stalls...where do you stop contributing to things that help disabled with your tax dollars regarless of how they got that way...or mental illness which leads to obesity in some cases..I don't think it's humane to exclude anyone from public health and I think it's no big deal for those with the ways and means to contribute to do so...tax dollars are spent on many less important things that you nor I benefit from as it is...America is one of the few countries in the world where you can eat yourself to death...those you pay for almost inevitably have shorter life spans than non smoking or healthier citizens..it works out anyway for the collective benefit of humanity

Well that is just it, it's all based on risk factors rather than on people being human beings. We've already all lost.