OT Healthcare

[Phatguysrule]

I covered Western Canada for nearly 35 years and most Canadians I knew (many) were not all that pleased with Gov provided health care, primarily long wait times and not able to select own doc. I knew numerous folks that traveled here to have serious operations performed because they could afford it, but couldn't afford to wait.

Americans are 10 times more likely (1.83% of the population) to seek healthcare outside the their country than Canadians (0.17% of their population).

Americans (0.4% of the population) are more than twice as likely as Canadians to leave their country seeking healthcare (0.17% of the population).

"In 2016, an estimated 63,459 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment outside Canada" (0.17% of the population)
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/leaving-canada-for-medical-care-2017.pdf

"We estimate some 1,400,000 Americans will travel outside the US for medical care this year (2017)." (0.4% of the population)
https://patientsbeyondborders.com/medical-tourism-statistics-facts

1.4 million versus 345,000. That is a ratio of over 4:1; that is to say, 4x more people leave the United States for care than come to the United States for care.

And this statistic of 1.4 million is counting only the Americans that physically left the country and went to another for healthcare. Millions of additional Americans take advantage of other countries' healthcare systems in additional ways. For example, as Fred Hansen continues,

"5.4 million Americans purchased drugs from other countries over the Internet last year."

And millions of Americans do this each year despite the fact that it isn't even legal!

So including medication, 1.83% of Americans seek healthcare from outside the US, as opposed to 0.17% of Canadians.

And most Americans can't pick their doctor either. And our wait times are long as well. In my experience Canadians who live in America prefer Canada's healthcare system. As most first world transplants prefer the healthcare system they came from.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Insurance is not the right method to provide healthcare.

Insurance works for automobiles and homes but healthcare?

Insurance was never designed as something you file claims on multiple times a year.

Imagine if we used our car insurance like we used our health insurance. We'd have to file claims for gas, tires, oil changes, maintenance, mechanical repairs. "I have a $2000 gas deductible then I'll only have a $20 co-pay at the pump!"

What about homeowners insurance? "Gotta get the pre-authorization before I can get paint at Home Depot."

Again, insurance is not the right way to provide healthcare.

 

[Chris Craig]

@Orion Bailey has asked for a separate thread for discussing healthcare.

I moved all the posts to their own thread already

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I moved all the posts to their own thread already

Makes sure you tax everyone who had a posted moved.

 

[Chris Craig]

Makes sure you tax everyone who had a posted moved.

They will definitely pay more

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

I’m late to the discussion but my understanding is that OB does not want government subsidized healthcare because he, as a tax payer does not want to pay for the consequences of other people’s unhealthy lifestyles. I agree 100%. However, anyone (including employers) who is paying for any kind of heath insurance whatsoever is already paying for the unhealthy lifestyles of others and always have. It’s one of the major reasons insurance premiums are so high. Seems like six of one, half dozen of another to me. The only real difference is that the individual has the choice of paying the premiums or going without under the current conditions. They don’t have a choice with “government healthcare”. Other than that, same shit, different roads……

And if this has already been pointed out……oops.

 

[julius]

I’m late to the discussion but my understanding is that OB does not want government subsidized healthcare because he, as a tax payer does not want to pay for the consequences of other people’s unhealthy lifestyles. I agree 100%. However, anyone (including employers) who is paying for any kind of heath insurance whatsoever is already paying for the unhealthy lifestyles of others and always have. It’s one of the major reasons insurance premiums are so high. Seems like six of one, half dozen of another to me. The only real difference is that the individual has the choice of paying the premiums or going without under the current conditions. They don’t have a choice with “government healthcare”. Other than that, same shit, different roads……

And if this has already been pointed out……oops.

There are far worse things we're paying for, as tax payers, than someone elses health care.

I don't have children, but my taxes go to schools. I don't believe in wars, but my taxes go to paying for them.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Insurance is not the right method to provide healthcare.

Insurance works for automobiles and homes but healthcare?

Insurance was never designed as something you file claims on multiple times a year.

Imagine if we used our car insurance like we used our health insurance. We'd have to file claims for gas, tires, oil changes, maintenance, mechanical repairs. "I have a $2000 gas deductible then I'll only have a $20 co-pay at the pump!"

What about homeowners insurance? "Gotta get the pre-authorization before I can get paint at Home Depot."

Again, insurance is not the right way to provide healthcare.

I had a part-time job at Sacred Heart hospital when I was going to U of O. One of the benefits they offered was dental.

Their dental coverage was unique.

They started off paying 50% of costs. If you went to the dentists every 6 mos the 2nd year they paid 60%. Every 6 mos, the 3 rd year 70%. 4th, 80%, all the way to 100%.

If you missed a 6 mos appointment you dropped back to 50%.

Now I think this was a very easy way to incentivize good dental care by the patient. It's also a good way to cut down on dental costs by the employer. Because if you're going to the dentist every 6 mos by the time you reach 100% coverage your dental needs are going to be much less vs a person who doesn't regularly see the dentist. Fewer root canals, crowns, etc. You're catching problems sooner and fixing them for cheaper.

 

[bigbailes]

Americans are 10 times more likely (1.83% of the population) to seek healthcare outside the their country than Canadians (0.17% of their population).

Americans (0.4% of the population) are more than twice as likely as Canadians to leave their country seeking healthcare (0.17% of the population).

"In 2016, an estimated 63,459 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment outside Canada" (0.17% of the population)
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/leaving-canada-for-medical-care-2017.pdf

"We estimate some 1,400,000 Americans will travel outside the US for medical care this year (2017)." (0.4% of the population)
https://patientsbeyondborders.com/medical-tourism-statistics-facts

1.4 million versus 345,000. That is a ratio of over 4:1; that is to say, 4x more people leave the United States for care than come to the United States for care.

And this statistic of 1.4 million is counting only the Americans that physically left the country and went to another for healthcare. Millions of additional Americans take advantage of other countries' healthcare systems in additional ways. For example, as Fred Hansen continues,

"5.4 million Americans purchased drugs from other countries over the Internet last year."

And millions of Americans do this each year despite the fact that it isn't even legal!

So including medication, 1.83% of Americans seek healthcare from outside the US, as opposed to 0.17% of Canadians.

And most Americans can't pick their doctor either. And our wait times are long as well. In my experience Canadians who live in America prefer Canada's healthcare system. As most first world transplants prefer the healthcare system they came from.

Interesting numbers, I can tell you living on the US/Mexico border that a lot of people head south for all kinds of medical treatments and prescriptions because the cost is FAR less!

 

[Phatguysrule]

Interesting numbers, I can tell you living on the US/Mexico border that a lot of people head south for all kinds of medical treatments and prescriptions because the cost is FAR less!

Bingo. My grandparents take vacation to Arizona every year just to go across the border and get dental work, glasses, and hearing aids. They come out so far ahead that it pays for another full vacation. Every year.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Interesting numbers, I can tell you living on the US/Mexico border that a lot of people head south for all kinds of medical treatments and prescriptions because the cost is FAR less!

The Tijuana Special!

 

[Orion Bailey]

You are already paying for people's "bad habits". You don't want to do that? Move out of society.
Instead, you are actively advocating for dystopian systems so you can control people who aren't like yourself and remove their freedom.

Who determines what bad habits are? Yikes.

What about the health care costs of people getting hit by cars out of the cross walk? So we don't care about offsetting that with risky behavior anymore? Why are we only worried about people who get caught? Wouldn't the weekly health questionnaire catch those that engage in this type of behavior?

because like everything else, we are proven innocent until found guilty. I never mentioned a weekly health questionnaire. Not sure where that came from.
Of course, with anything in life there will be outliers.
Its illegal to speed, but some do it and get caught. Some don't. But if your caught your insurance premiums go up.

its called freedom of choice. One has a choice to jaywalk and possibly get caught.
One has a choice to eat poorly and has a possibility of getting caught.
I just think it would be easier to simply tax unhealthy things vs set cameras up everywhere to monitor behavior. And less invasive.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You are already paying for people's "bad habits". You don't want to do that? Move out of society.
Instead, you are actively advocating for dystopian systems so you can control people who aren't like yourself and remove their freedom.

Who determines what bad habits are? Yikes.

why do i have to move out of society? I cant i push for legislature to hold those more accountable?

science determines bad habits. Medicine and science.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

I had a part-time job at Sacred Heart hospital when I was going to U of O. One of the benefits they offered was dental.

Their dental coverage was unique.

They started off paying 50% of costs. If you went to the dentists every 6 mos the 2nd year they paid 60%. Every 6 mos, the 3 rd year 70%. 4th, 80%, all the way to 100%.

If you missed a 6 mos appointment you dropped back to 50%.

Now I think this was a very easy way to incentivize good dental care by the patient. It's also a good way to cut down on dental costs by the employer. Because if you're going to the dentist every 6 mos by the time you reach 100% coverage your dental needs are going to be much less vs a person who doesn't regularly see the dentist. Fewer root canals, crowns, etc. You're catching problems sooner and fixing them for cheaper.

This has been pretty much the deal with every dental plan I have been on the past 45 years. They pay 70% of the cleaning the first year, 80% the second and so on. And yeah, it goes back to 70% when you miss a year. I took horrible care of my teeth in my younger years, but being “forced” to go to the dentist annually has paid huge dividends and saved me a lot of money. Too bad I had to be so stupid for so many years…….

 

[Phatguysrule]

because like everything else, we are proven innocent until found guilty. I never mentioned a weekly health questionnaire. Not sure where that came from.
Of course, with anything in life there will be outliers.
Its illegal to speed, but some do it and get caught. Some don't. But if your caught your insurance premiums go up.

its called freedom of choice. One has a choice to jaywalk and possibly get caught.
One has a choice to eat poorly and has a possibility of getting caught.
I just think it would be easier to simply tax unhealthy things vs set cameras up everywhere to monitor behavior. And less invasive.

So a tax on beef? Pork? How about bread? Who decides what is unhealthy?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

So a tax on beef? Pork? How about bread? Who decides what is unhealthy?

We really need one of those essential oils idiots in this discussion.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I’m late to the discussion but my understanding is that OB does not want government subsidized healthcare because he, as a tax payer does not want to pay for the consequences of other people’s unhealthy lifestyles. I agree 100%. However, anyone (including employers) who is paying for any kind of heath insurance whatsoever is already paying for the unhealthy lifestyles of others and always have. It’s one of the major reasons insurance premiums are so high. Seems like six of one, half dozen of another to me. The only real difference is that the individual has the choice of paying the premiums or going without under the current conditions. They don’t have a choice with “government healthcare”. Other than that, same shit, different roads……

And if this has already been pointed out……oops.

and this is why im not for a change in funding first. Bad habits will remain. We need education on how to live healthier.
On e we get people wanting to healthier we can then truly determine the costs of those without a choice to develop a better plan to help them.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

We really need one of those essential oils idiots in this discussion.

BULLET PROOF COFFEE, BRO

 

[Orion Bailey]

So a tax on beef? Pork? How about bread? Who decides what is unhealthy?

science and medicine. The same faith we put towards the vaccine?

 

[Phatguysrule]

why do i have to move out of society? I cant i push for legislature to hold those more accountable?

science determines bad habits. Medicine and science.

I didn't say you have to. I suggested it, since that's the only way to make sure you don't pay for people to do things you don't like.

In society you have to deal with people making choices you don't agree with. There is no removing that. Regardless of any dystopian legislation we try to pass people will still do things you don't agreed with. And you'll still have to pay for it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I showed you their healthcare budget compared to ours. This is not controversial. If you want to challenge that data bring some evidence with you. Honestly, get serious or exit the conversation.

Come on man. First of all. I made a comment and you quoted me on it and we have been discussing from there.
Second im on my phone at work. Im not gonna see everything when every comment i make has three or four replies from people.

but whatevsman. Was trying to be serious.

 

[Phatguysrule]

science and medicine. The same faith we put towards the vaccine?

Right, but based on what? Nothing we eat is dangerous in moderation.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I didn't say you have to. I suggested it, since that's the only way to make sure you don't pay for people to do things you don't like.

In society you have to deal with people making choices you don't agree with. There is no removing that. Regardless of any dystopian legislation we try to pass people will still do things you don't agreed with. And you'll still have to pay for it.

So we should just toss out hands in the air and let it go rampant? Or continue to minimize bad choices of individuals for the good of all?

You may give up. Im not gonna.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Right, but based on what? Nothing we eat is dangerous in moderation.

buy one bag of chips a month no tax. Buy 19 bags a tax. Buy 30 bags? A higher tax. It would be really easier to implement a tracking system on spending.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Come on man. First of all. I made a comment and you quoted me on it and we have been discussing from there.
Second im on my phone at work. Im not gonna see everything when every comment i make has three or four replies from people.

but whatevsman. Was trying to be serious.

If you want to be taken seriously then you might not dismiss the evidence I've provided several times as inaccurate.

Get the counter evidence if you want to have that conversation. You've had several days to do so.

 

[Phatguysrule]

So we should just toss out hands in the air and let it go rampant? Or continue to minimize bad choices of individuals for the good of all?

You may give up. Im not gonna.

No, other countries do this very well. That's what I've been saying.

Get Universal Healthcare. Stop subsidizing corn syrup. Improve access to education. Make our communities more walkable.

This is what the happiest and healthiest countries in the world do, and you don't like that. Instead you want to punish people who don't do things you don't like.

In fact, arguing for taxes that evidence shows we don't even need, and in fact don't work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...05cf44-fa5f-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

No, other countries do this very well. That's what I've been saying.

Get Universal Healthcare. Stop subsidizing corn syrup. Improve access to education. Make our communities more walkable.

This is what the happiest and healthiest countries in the world do, and you don't like that. Instead you want to punish people who don't do things you don't like.

In fact, arguing for taxes that evidence shows we don't even need, and in fact don't work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...05cf44-fa5f-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html

The happiest and healthiest countries are generally low population and non-diverse (mostly whites or asians usually).

Generally agree. Universal Healthcare would be good. Less processed foods would be good.

 

[barfo]

buy one bag of chips a month no tax. Buy 19 bags a tax. Buy 30 bags? A higher tax. It would be really easier to implement a tracking system on spending.

Yes, that would be very easy, technically. And would cause every single 'freedumb' person's head to explode. The government is tracking my every move?

We aren't even allowed to track purchases of firearms due to freedumb, what do you think the odds of tracking every purchase of every item are?

Your proposal has zero chance of ever being implemented in this country.

barfo

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

There should be a fried chicken tax.

 

[Shaboid]

There should be a fried chicken tax.

You trying to make a thigh and a wing cost a leg and an arm?!