How low will California fall?

[MARIS61]

Why shouldn't the students get the lower tuition rates?

Ask the Mexican government, since they're Mexicans. Maybe it's because they're not in Mexico?

A more relevant question would be why haven't we deported them yet since we've known for years they are ILLEGAL.

As long as certain state governments continue to ignore and circumvent Federal Immigration laws they should lose ALL federal funding of any kind for anything. I'm tired of carrying them financially when their debt is self-inflicted through treasonous arrogance.

 

[MARIS61]

Sure it does. They pay state income tax.

That's retarded thinking. Break our laws and receive amnesty AND $$$$$$!

I pay state income tax, so I guess you'd be for giving me amnesty if I murder someone.

 

[MARIS61]

More statistics in this article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/15/MNGRMJEGM81.DTL&type=politics

Selling illegal immigrants the American dream

Their immigration status did not prevent them from buying a home. It is legal for undocumented people to purchase property in the United States.

The problem has been borrowing the money to pay for it. Ramiro and Marisol have stable jobs, but many undocumented people have spotty or nonexistent credit histories. Often, they've worked off the books. That's two big strikes against getting a mortgage.

Another issue used to be an absolute deal breaker when undocumented people applied for home loans: Until recently, people had to have a Social Security number to qualify for a mortgage.

Now, a handful of banks, including some major institutions, have begun offering home-mortgage loans to people who don't have Social Security accounts. Instead, borrowers can use individual taxpayer identification numbers, or ITINs, which are used to file income tax returns. These lending programs also allow borrowers to use unconventional ways to demonstrate their creditworthiness.

The Internal Revenue Service issues taxpayer IDs to both resident and nonresident aliens so they can pay taxes. A significant number of the 8.6 million holders of individual taxpayer IDs are illegal immigrants, according to the Government Accounting Office.

Even as a heated debate swirls around the 12 million unauthorized immigrants in the United States, they are increasingly participating in the country's financial system, from paying taxes to opening bank accounts. And, for many undocumented people, just as for many citizens, the ultimate financial goal is to be a homeowner.

That's a 5-year-old article. And it's very misleading, but in hindsight demonstrates the horrific economic consequences of enabling illegal aliens. While illegal aliens can buy homes here (ostensibly as a vacation home), they cannot legally reside in them as permanent residents. During the housing loan-fraud boom they simply lied about their illlegal staus and mortgage brokers turned a blind eye. But now they would have to prove they were permanent legal US residents, or pay cash. Most of those homes have been foreclosed on by now, and illegals will find it nearly impossible to buy a home here now that financing regulations and enforcement have revisited saneness. The states with the highest rate of illegal aliens are the same states hit hardest with foreclosures. States devoid of illegals fared the best through the housing crash. No lender in this day and age is going to give money to a border-hopper who's entire life is based on lies and deceit. The only loan they might get would be for a vacation home if they apply as a foreigner.

 

[MARIS61]

I advocate people who work paying taxes. At least she went out of her way to pay them. It shouldn't be so hard for her and others like her to pay income taxes.

If the laws weren't stacked against them, they'd have to get ID and be paid minimum wage and have withholding taken out, whether they had immigration papers or not.

No, they would be deported and Americans would have jobs rather than being on unemployment. And Mexico would have the benefit of their labor and tax contributions and they could afford to fight the cartels and make it a nice place to live.

Everything about illegal aliens from Mexico ultimately damages both countries economically, socially, and morally.

 

[andalusian]

I read somewhere along the line that the Chevy Volt takes $1.47 worth of electricity a night to charge. While it does get you 25 miles or less. It's really the equivalent of ~$3/gallon gas in a car that gets 50MPG (or 40MPG if the Volt gets 20 miles/charge)

I read it too - it was based on NY's really high KW/h prices and the harsh winters that limit the range. If you actually look at the national average price of electricity and compare the volt to cars of the same size (which do not get 50MPG), especially in places with better weather - the price difference is much higher in favor of the electric cars. Of course, if you are going to look at cars that get 40MPG or 50MPG - you should really look at smaller more economical electric vehicles like the Nissan Leaf or the Mitsubishi MiEV.

Add the fact that the internal-combustion engine is basically a 19th century technology while electric engines for transportation uses are pretty much at a very early stage of development - and it is pretty clear that you are going to see much bigger advances in the electric vehicles once they reach critical mass.

Add the fact that moving to an electric grid infrastructure removes the dependence on foreign oil, electricity can be created using natural resources, coal (where we have more than a century of untapped reserves) - and might actually lead the US to invest again in much cheaper Nuclear power-plants - and it is pretty clear that electricity is the wave of the future when it comes to transportation uses.

You are either going to keep sticking your head in the sand and cluck your tongue hoping it will not happen - or realize that it's better to do it when you have a chance to be a leader and not find yourself playing catch-up.

More realistically, the Volt will be using its gas engine, and it gets 37 MPG (combined city/highway).

Actually, the average American drives 33.4 Miles per day - which is going to be covered by the Volt in many places, only in really harsh conditions the car will not be able to cover this range. Again - if you go to the smaller, more efficient cars like the Leaf/MiEV - you are certainly going to do most of your driving on electric charge.

 

[andalusian]

Yeah smart as long as its government subsidized.

As if gasoline is not subsidized by the government in the form of "police action" in the middle east...

Apples to apples - every time a soccer mom drives her gasoline car - it is government subsidized as well.

Might as well use this subsidy for projects that happen in this country than in Katar or Yemen...

 

[MARIS61]

Quite frankly, the state can't afford not do it. Skilled workforce is required to attract businesses that provide employment and tax-income. One of the things holding the metro Portland area down is the lack of high-quality higher education.



This has nothing to do with being able to compete - it has anything to do with promoting better education for a more skilled workforce and population.



This is a rather short-sighted look at it. The people that live near Stanford and UCLA have seen their property values sky-rocket because of all the businesses that were created because of research and education from these institutes, and the same is right for most areas where the better schools are at. (and btw, I am aware that Stanford is not a public school). The same is true for Boston and MIT and Zurich and the university of Zurich and Haifa and the Technion and just about every place where good schools are around the world.

There are a lot of benefits to helping educate the population - they are not necessarily direct and easy to tabulate - but they are better than the alternative.

Since illegal aliens comprise the largest group of illiterates in our nation, simply deporting them and spending the same amount to educate legal, English-speaking citizens would put us in the #1 spot worldwide for most highly-skilled best educated workforce. Wasting our scarce money educating Mexico's citizens instead of our own will only downgrade our workforce.

If you want a bushel of perfectly ripened apples you don't pick up the rotten ones lying under the tree.

 

[MARIS61]

As if gasoline is not subsidized by the government in the form of "police action" in the middle east...

Apples to apples - every time a soccer mom drives her gasoline car - it is government subsidized as well.

...

True, but it will be 20 years before an all-electric car has the 1-charge range needed to sell widely. By then electricity will be so scarce it will be nearly unaffordable to most people.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Re: Re: How low will California fall?

As if gasoline is not subsidized by the government in the form of "police action" in the middle east...

Apples to apples - every time a soccer mom drives her gasoline car - it is government subsidized as well.

Might as well use this subsidy for projects that happen in this country than in Katar or Yemen...

There is actually a demand for gas. Electrics demand are imaginary.

X

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

After playing a role in running California into the ground is this the end of Arnold's political career?

 

[andalusian]

There is actually a demand for gas. Electrics demand are imaginary.

110 years ago there was actual demand for horses - but demand for automobiles was imaginary as well.

 

[Denny Crane]

110 years ago there was actual demand for horses - but demand for automobiles was imaginary as well.

110 years ago, there was electricity, too.

 

[andalusian]

110 years ago, there was electricity, too.

But the technology and the infrastructure was not good enough to be used, for transportation purposes.

It is today...

I love IC engines - but they are a dead-end when you look at issues such as global demand/supply of the energy source and reliance on foreign sources.

 

[Denny Crane]

But the technology and the infrastructure was not good enough to be used, for transportation purposes.

It is today...

I love IC engines - but they are a dead-end when you look at issues such as global demand/supply of the energy source and reliance on foreign sources.

We may not have enough power plants to generate electricity for electric (only) cars if we were to put millions of them on the road in a short time.

California imports about 1/3 of its electricity, and 1/3 of the power plants in the state are 40+ years old.

Too bad we blew about $4T (if you include TARP, stimulus, and fed easing) in the past two years or we could have used the money to build some nuclear power plants. Something I would have supported.

GM's electric car is enormously expensive and only attainable by people with upper middle class due to govt. subsidy. As near as I can tell, the Prius is superior technology and will use incrementally more gasoline than the Volt. I've not looked at the major auto companies' other electric cars (Nissan Leaf, for one), so I can't speak to those.

Tessla Motors makes $100K and $50K priced models that get 300 miles to a charge. They actually look like reasonable alternatives to gasoline powered cars. Too bad Daimler and Toyota are the major auto makers with the clue to invest in the company. GM probably should have bought the company a few years ago.

Anyhow, you can't get rid of gasoline powered vehicles completely, and probably not reaully as close as you'd like. You can't haul fruits and vegetables from California to Chicago (way more than 300 miles) in some sort of electric semi truck. A 300 mile range isn't sufficient for a lot of people who spend a good chunk of their lives in their car/truck (travelling salespeople, repairmen, etc.).

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^So if you amortize the cost of building new power plants across all the electric cars sold, plus the subsidies, it's a pretty huge money loser.

 

[andalusian]

We may not have enough power plants to generate electricity for electric (only) cars if we were to put millions of them on the road in a short time.

I am not stupid enough to think it will be in a short time. It is going to take a long time to do it.

GM's electric car is enormously expensive and only attainable by people with upper middle class due to govt. subsidy. As near as I can tell, the Prius is superior technology and will use incrementally more gasoline than the Volt. I've not looked at the major auto companies' other electric cars (Nissan Leaf, for one), so I can't speak to those.

The Prius is a much more complicated design - as it uses two drive-trains and combines them, the Volt should be simpler as the gasoline engine should not be providing power directly to the wheels, just to recharge the batteries. Early designs are always expensive - but they are a required step...

Anyhow, you can't get rid of gasoline powered vehicles completely, and probably not reaully as close as you'd like. You can't haul fruits and vegetables from California to Chicago (way more than 300 miles) in some sort of electric semi truck. A 300 mile range isn't sufficient for a lot of people who spend a good chunk of their lives in their car/truck (travelling salespeople, repairmen, etc.).

Of course not, the right tool for the right job - but for the vast majority of Americans that do not drive over 40 miles a day - a gasoline IC engine is a dead-end.

 

[andalusian]

^^^So if you amortize the cost of building new power plants across all the electric cars sold, plus the subsidies, it's a pretty huge money loser.

Why do we need to amortize the cost across electric cars sold? It's not as if the current California electric grid is working at a real surplus with no real growth projected even without electric cars.

All I am saying is that moving the investment in the sand dunes of the middle-east to guard oil-fields to investment in infrastructure and jobs in the US for electric grid and the like - seems like a good idea... unless you are Saudi royalty, that is...

 

[andalusian]

California imports about 1/3 of its electricity, and 1/3 of the power plants in the state are 40+ years old.

Last I heard Nevada and the South-western states are sort of a part of the same country. Sure, California imports electricity from them - but it sure is better than importing oil from foreign countries helping (indirectly via commodity prices) the coffers of Venezuela and the middle-east, no?

 

[Denny Crane]

The prius costs $25,000 without subsidies and requires no new infrastructure.

FWIW, I ride a bicycle to and from work every day.

 

[Denny Crane]

Last I heard Nevada and the South-western states are sort of a part of the same country. Sure, California imports electricity from them - but it sure is better than importing oil from foreign countries helping (indirectly via commodity prices) the coffers of Venezuela and the middle-east, no?

Yeah, but California doesn't produce what it needs and it would need a LOT more if there were a million electric cars plugged in every night.

Only 1/2 of oil is converted to gasoline, the rest is mostly used to make electricity (and heat homes and make plastics, etc.). Get rid of the oil burning plants (nuclear!) and you save as much as if every car were electric.

 

[andalusian]

Yeah, but California doesn't produce what it needs and it would need a LOT more if there were a million electric cars plugged in every night.

Only 1/2 of oil is converted to gasoline, the rest is mostly used to make electricity (and heat homes and make plastics, etc.). Get rid of the oil burning plants (nuclear!) and you save as much as if every car were electric.

Oil is only used for relief power-plants (the ones that the utilities keep around for peak use). Most of the electricity in this country is generated from coal. If memory serves, only 6% of the oil we use goes to electricity and residential use...

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, you make the point that to plug in a car, some coal elsewhere is being burned to make the electricity. It's no free lunch.

There's also a limit to the amount of Lithium (used in batteries for electric cars) there is in the world.

http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/

 

[andalusian]

Well, you make the point that to plug in a car, some coal elsewhere is being burned to make the electricity. It's no free lunch.

Who said it was? All I said was that it was a good deal for this country because:

1. We have lots of coal.
2. Electricity can be created from multiple sources, nuclear, natural etc...
3. We move the investment we make into our borders for our own infrastructure and mostly our own population.

We already make the investment. Let's make it in a place that makes sense for us to benefit most from it...

There's also a limit to the amount of Lithium (used in batteries for electric cars) there is in the world.

Yes, there is, but Lithium is not the end-all of electricity storage technology, it is just the most common modern method used today.

 

[Denny Crane]

If we were allowed to burn all the coal we want to make electricity, it'd be really cheap. But the trend is away from coal burning plants.

We have a lot of natural gas. If we made cars that burned that, we'd accomplish your goal - bring it all within our borders, etc.

The cost of the infrastructure would be HUGE.

Maybe I'm no financial genius, but when you continuously spend money on losing propositions, you'll eventually run out. Like we are now.

 

[andalusian]

If we were allowed to burn all the coal we want to make electricity, it'd be really cheap. But the trend is away from coal burning plants.

Nuclear power-plants will be even cheaper than that...

The technology is there, but for some reason, politically it's not OK to build them but it's OK to send people to fight in Iraq...

We have a lot of natural gas. If we made cars that burned that, we'd accomplish your goal - bring it all within our borders, etc.

The cost of the infrastructure would be HUGE.

Are you talking about the cost of the infrastructure for electricity or natural gas?

Maybe I'm no financial genius, but when you continuously spend money on losing propositions, you'll eventually run out. Like we are now.

And there you made my argument for me. We already spend tons of money on a losing proposition with the foreign oil dependency. It only makes sense to transition to something else and move that investment where it will build our infrastructure, create jobs and investment in-house and develop technology that can later be exported...

 

[Denny Crane]

A nuclear power plant costs a lot to build in the USA. Perhaps $20B these days.

The cost of Iraq and Afghanistan combined might have built 50 nuclear reactors over 10 years. Hardly the number we'd need.

The cost of infrastructure for natural gas. I don't see many filling stations that have tanks of it to fill up from.

The problem with your last statement is that burning oil (and coal) is hugely economical compared to the alternatives. Otherwise the alternatives would have already won. We're talking maybe 50x more economical.

 

[MARIS61]

I am not stupid enough to think it will be in a short time. It is going to take a long time to do it.



The Prius is a much more complicated design - as it uses two drive-trains and combines them, the Volt should be simpler as the gasoline engine should not be providing power directly to the wheels, just to recharge the batteries. Early designs are always expensive - but they are a required step...



Of course not, the right tool for the right job - but for the vast majority of Americans that do not drive over 40 miles a day - a gasoline IC engine is a dead-end.

Vast majority? LOL.

 

[MARIS61]

Why do we need to amortize the cost across electric cars sold? It's not as if the current California electric grid is working at a real surplus with no real growth projected even without electric cars.

All I am saying is that moving the investment in the sand dunes of the middle-east to guard oil-fields to investment in infrastructure and jobs in the US for electric grid and the like - seems like a good idea... unless you are Saudi royalty, that is...

...or the military industrial complex that runs our country and profits insanely from the status quo.

Never gonna happen.

 

[MARIS61]

Last I heard Nevada and the South-western states are sort of a part of the same country. Sure, California imports electricity from them - but it sure is better than importing oil from foreign countries helping (indirectly via commodity prices) the coffers of Venezuela and the middle-east, no?

So, you're an isolationist that opposes free trade between countries?

I'd much rather have oil wells being drilled in the Venezuela than more dams and nuke plants built in America.

 

[MARIS61]

Who said it was? All I said was that it was a good deal for this country because:

1. We have lots of coal.

Not very green of you.

Most sane people would like to see the filthy practice of burning it banned, which will eventually happen. Proposing to increase the burning of coal by tenfold or whatever absurd number would be required to run America's cars is naive at best.