How low will California fall?

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I do understand. It's "do as I say, not as I do".

You persuaded me. I own vintage Alfa Romeos. Clearly, since I do, I should now suggest everyone does so to solve our energy problems. Brilliant.

In other news - astronomers should not talk about space before they go there otherwise it is "do as I say, not as I do".

That was a a bullshit statement and I suspect you know it...
 
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We say France is the model and you dig up a few incidents from any country but.

I linked to the wiki article listing 10 (2nd worst) accidents. Several of them spilled directly into rivers.

If France is the model, the end of humanity is near.
 
Sorry, Maris, but those are chicken little links. The sky is falling!

One says, "global warming is out of control!" (is it snowing near you?)

One says, "we can cut CO2 by not using energy." LOL at that one.

Maybe you might read your own links and use them to back something you "know" as fact.
 
boeing laying off 900 in Long Beach at their cargo plane plant. Shutdown of that factory imminent.
 
boeing laying off 900 in Long Beach at their cargo plane plant. Shutdown of that factory imminent.

To be expected, I suppose. The Military is not buying them that often at this point - and the UK has got their feel.

This has very little to do with California specifically, however.
 
other than a lot of manufacturing jobs will be gone. As will be their suppliers and other related businesses.

Aerospace is getting out of California. Norhrup Gruman did last year to go back east. Boeing looking to get out too. The ship is sinking.
 
other than a lot of manufacturing jobs will be gone. As will be their suppliers and other related businesses.

Aerospace is getting out of California. Norhrup Gruman did last year to go back east. Boeing looking to get out too. The ship is sinking.

Are you going to go down with the ship, Cap'n?

barfo
 
Absolutely. Actually looking to buy in Vegas, maybe move out there. we'll see.
 
You persuaded me. I own vintage Alfa Romeos. Clearly, since I do, I should now suggest everyone does so to solve our energy problems. Brilliant.

In other news - astronomers should not talk about space before they go there otherwise it is "do as I say, not as I do".

That was a a bullshit statement and I suspect you know it...

I didn't intend to pursuade you. You were on the pulpit about the Volt, yet collect gas guzzling Italian sports cars. If you don't see the disconnect, I can't help you. As for your analogy, astronomers make a concrete commitment to space by making it their vocation. If you tell me you're an electric car engineer, I'll apologize for my comments.
 
Absolutely. Actually looking to buy in Vegas, maybe move out there. we'll see.

It would be a nice time to buy for a long-term hold. Values won't come back in the next five years, but hold a property for a decade and you'll make out well.
 
I didn't intend to pursuade you. You were on the pulpit about the Volt, yet collect gas guzzling Italian sports cars. If you don't see the disconnect, I can't help you. As for your analogy, astronomers make a concrete commitment to space by making it their vocation. If you tell me you're an electric car engineer, I'll apologize for my comments.

There is absolutely no disconnect because there is no comparison between rarely used collector cars and commuters. I do maybe 1000 miles a year on the race track with them - which has nothing to do at all with electric vehicles. As I told you - I do not commute, but if I were, I would definitely consider an electric vehicle. If you want to bust me up for suggesting that race cars should go electric - you can try to do that, but I did not say that.

It was a stupid comment before and I still stand by it - it is a stupid comment. Berating someone that does not commute for not commuting in an electric vehicle and thus having a wrong opinion on the proper way to change our commuting habits is just silly.

The math does not lie - this country has less than 5% of the population of the world but it consumes a little more than 50% of the oil produced in the world. This can not continue - no matter how you try to justify it. China's oil usage is going up steadily, you can add India to the list of countries that will continue to grow their oil consumption rather rapidly. If the transportation infrastructure of this country is going to continue to be oil based - the economy is never going to recover. Given that - there are two options - go to an alternative energy source of adopt the lemmings mantra of "it's a big cliff, it must be fun to fall of it". Every person in this country consumes more than 100 times the oil that a person in China consumes, but 10 years ago - there were less than 10 million cars in China - by the end of this year there will be more than 75 million and China will have the 2nd largest car fleet on the earth - you can see where this going... oil prices are going to jump like crazy.

Last I have looked - price per barrel has gone up to around $90 - which is close to what we were paying before the recession hit (it was $126 at the peak, but the average price in 2008 was $98). Honestly - there is no other alternative but to convert from oil-based transportation energy to alternative methods.
 
There is absolutely no disconnect because there is no comparison between rarely used collector cars and commuters. I do maybe 1000 miles a year on the race track with them - which has nothing to do at all with electric vehicles. As I told you - I do not commute, but if I were, I would definitely consider an electric vehicle. If you want to bust me up for suggesting that race cars should go electric - you can try to do that, but I did not say that.

It was a stupid comment before and I still stand by it - it is a stupid comment. Berating someone that does not commute for not commuting in an electric vehicle and thus having a wrong opinion on the proper way to change our commuting habits is just silly.

The math does not lie - this country has less than 5% of the population of the world but it consumes a little more than 50% of the oil produced in the world. This can not continue - no matter how you try to justify it. China's oil usage is going up steadily, you can add India to the list of countries that will continue to grow their oil consumption rather rapidly. If the transportation infrastructure of this country is going to continue to be oil based - the economy is never going to recover. Given that - there are two options - go to an alternative energy source of adopt the lemmings mantra of "it's a big cliff, it must be fun to fall of it". Every person in this country consumes more than 100 times the oil that a person in China consumes, but 10 years ago - there were less than 10 million cars in China - by the end of this year there will be more than 75 million and China will have the 2nd largest car fleet on the earth - you can see where this going... oil prices are going to jump like crazy.

Last I have looked - price per barrel has gone up to around $90 - which is close to what we were paying before the recession hit (it was $126 at the peak, but the average price in 2008 was $98). Honestly - there is no other alternative but to convert from oil-based transportation energy to alternative methods.

A thousand miles is still a thousand miles. If you're going to lead, lead by example. Until then, you're Al Gore.
 
A thousand miles is still a thousand miles. If you're going to lead, lead by example. Until then, you're Al Gore.

You could say that I am leading by example. I am not commuting... I spend close to zero on commuting chores. But I am also smart enough to know that this does not work for most people...

I am also smart enough to see that you are trying to move the discussion from the important and correct point I am making to something else - my personal situation, which is not relevant. This might work in politics, but it really does not make any difference in this situation because I am not trying to gain anything for myself.

The facts are that me owning an electric vehicle at this point is irrelevant, especially because I am not a commuter. But, if you are asking me if I am paying attention to gas usage, I most certainly am. I never owned a giant gas guzzler, my family was never moved in a giant SUV or minivan, always in a small sedan or wagon - and when the time comes to replace my family's current mover (a small Subaru Impreza wagon) - I will most certainly look at a more efficient vehicle - and I am glad that there is investment in infrastructure to move the country to more efficient means of energy use - short of a magical oil-well in every back-yard - the way for this country to move forward is to look at an alternative energy source - and the electric grid is the most reasonable one - so California investing in it and in alternative energy - is a smart thing.

Change is never easy - and that's why there is so much resistance to it - but it is inevitable. There is no way the current way we live continues if we continue doing what we are doing because it is easy - but if we do not want to find ourselves in the shit in a decade or two - we need to work to fix it - even if the steps getting there are not easy.
 
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You could say that I am leading by example. I am not commuting... I spend close to zero on commuting chores. But I am also smart enough to know that this does not work for most people...

I am also smart enough to see that you are trying to move the discussion from the important and correct point I am making to something else - my personal situation, which is not relevant. This might work in politics, but it really does not make any difference in this situation because I am not trying to gain anything for myself.

The facts are that me owning an electric vehicle at this point is irrelevant, especially because I am not a commuter. But, if you are asking me if I am paying attention to gas usage, I most certainly am. I never owned a giant gas guzzler, my family was never moved in a giant SUV or minivan, always in a small sedan or wagon - and when the time comes to replace my family's current mover (a small Subaru Impreza wagon) - I will most certainly look at a more efficient vehicle - and I am glad that there is investment in infrastructure to move the country to more efficient means of energy use - short of a magical oil-well in every back-yard - the way for this country to move forward is to look at an alternative energy source - and the electric grid is the most reasonable one - so California investing in it and in alternative energy - is a smart thing.

Change is never easy - and that's why there is so much resistance to it - but it is inevitable. There is no way the current way we live continues if we continue doing what we are doing because it is easy - but if we do not want to find ourselves in the shit in a decade or two - we need to work to fix it - even if the steps getting there are not easy.

Coal. Nuclear. Shale oil and tar sands. Offshore drilling. ANWAR. Done.
 
Coal. Nuclear.

That's the electric grid, so it's the same as what I was saying.

Shale oil and tar sands.

The moment these are viable financially - you know you are screwed, because it means that petroleum is super-expensive.

Offshore drilling. ANWAR.

I am all for it. But it is just a temporary solution. It just moves the boiling point 25 years further down the line (which is not a bad thing) - as long as it is done while also developing the switch to the electric grid, that's great. If it is done instead of - you are just moving the problem to your kids, unfortunately.

At the end of the day, I just do not see any other reasonable solution other than investing in the electric-grid and electric transportation. It just makes sense.

The energy industry is the next "gold mine" of the economy. We have done the agricultural thing, done the industrial thing, we have done the computing/networking thing and they are all great and they are good and still need them - but down the line - that's where America can change the game again to it's benefit. It would be stupid not to tackle it.
 
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That's the electric grid, so it's the same as what I was saying.



The moment these are viable financially - you know you are screwed, because it means that petroleum is super-expensive.



I am all for it. But it is just a temporary solution. It just moves the boiling point 25 years further down the line (which is not a bad thing) - as long as it is done while also developing the switch to the electric grid, that's great. If it is done instead of - you are just moving the problem to your kids, unfortunately.

At the end of the day, I just do not see any other reasonable solution other than investing in the electric-grid and electric transportation. It just makes sense.

The energy industry is the next "gold mine" of the economy. We have done the agricultural thing, done the industrial thing, we have done the computing/networking thing and they are all great and they are good and still need them - but down the line - that's where America can change the game again to it's benefit. It would be stupid not to tackle it.

Yet we're doing none of the things I wrote, all in favor of trying to force new, unproven and expensive technologies down our throat. It's like saying in the late 1800s we're deforesting the country, so no more burning wood for heat and light because Thomas Edison invested the light bulb and we found oil in Pennsylvania. Let it come on its own. Enterprising people will find solutions without the assistance of governmental subsidies, and for damn sure we don't need them to pick winners and losers.
 
Yet we're doing none of the things I wrote, all in favor of trying to force new, unproven and expensive technologies down our throat.

Who is forcing what? The biggest energy thing that California did was deregulation in 1998 - and that made the utilities there a mess.

The subsidies to develop electric vehicles in this country are a drop in the bucket compared to the Corn subsidies, I am not saying that off-shore drilling is bad, I do think that Alaska is not properly used, but I also think that we need to an awful lot more to make the transition to electric vehicles.

What expensive unproven technologies are there in electric vehicles? We have thousands of hybrids on the road for over 5 years now showing you that we have the battery technology - so there is nothing unproven there. The beauty of something like the Volt is that it is all proven technology. Electric motors, batteries with an optimized IC engine to keep it charged once you go over the range. There is absolutely nothing unproven about it. It is expensive because it is at an early development stage - and it moves the thinking about the way cars are built and how to distribute energy to them - but the technology is far from unproven.

As for Nuclear power-plants, Obama actually is starting to move that thing after many years that these power-plants were not built in this country - in Feb. of 2010 - he added loan guarantees for building new nuclear power-plants - which is more than any president has done in this country since the 70s - it might not be fast, but it is a start. There is an awful lot that this administration mucked - but if they have done one thing somewhat right - is put proper attention to energy reuse, efficiency and development. It is far from done - but it is much better than was done in a long, long time.

At the end of the day, the idea that enterprising people will find solution without the assistance of government subsidies is nice in a Utopian world, but when it comes to massive infrastructure changes - countries that do not have these strategic decisions prove to be in problem - I find absolutely no problems with energy infrastructure investment - because it is proper investment that will build the hot-bed that enterprising people can thrive in. There are tons of enterprising people in Africa - but they are not developing much of anything because the infrastructure is not there. The place where governments involvement makes sense is in infrastructure investments - so I have no problems with incentives to build and consume these game changing technologies.

The farm subsidies made sense in the 30s and the 40s, the investment in the highway system in the 50s made sense - and likewise, the investment in new-age energy technologies these days make sense. This is exactly where government needs to step in and provide the investment and long-term burden. It was true when DARPA developed networking in the 60s and 70s and the space investment of the 50s to 70s did wonders for the industrial success of this country. This is the place for government investment. The places where enterprising people will not be able to lift it by themselves because the investment is high and it will take a while to see the benefits.

Heck, in a financial system where publicly owned private enterprise via the stock market is built on quarterly results - it is the only way to get these things done...
 
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Who is forcing what? The biggest energy thing that California did was deregulation in 1998 - and that made the utilities there a mess.

The subsidies to develop electric vehicles in this country are a drop in the bucket compared to the Corn subsidies, I am not saying that off-shore drilling is bad, I do think that Alaska is not properly used, but I also think that we need to an awful lot more to make the transition to electric vehicles.

What expensive unproven technologies are there in electric vehicles? We have thousands of hybrids on the road for over 5 years now showing you that we have the battery technology - so there is nothing unproven there. The beauty of something like the Volt is that it is all proven technology. Electric motors, batteries with an optimized IC engine to keep it charged once you go over the range. There is absolutely nothing unproven about it. It is expensive because it is at an early development stage - and it moves the thinking about the way cars are built and how to distribute energy to them - but the technology is far from unproven.

As for Nuclear power-plants, Obama actually is starting to move that thing after many years that these power-plants were not built in this country - in Feb. of 2010 - he added loan guarantees for building new nuclear power-plants - which is more than any president has done in this country since the 70s - it might not be fast, but it is a start. There is an awful lot that this administration mucked - but if they have done one thing somewhat right - is put proper attention to energy reuse, efficiency and development. It is far from done - but it is much better than was done in a long, long time.

At the end of the day, the idea that enterprising people will find solution without the assistance of government subsidies is nice in a Utopian world, but when it comes to massive infrastructure changes - countries that do not have these strategic decisions prove to be in problem - I find absolutely no problems with energy infrastructure investment - because it is proper investment that will build the hot-bed that enterprising people can thrive in. There are tons of enterprising people in Africa - but they are not developing much of anything because the infrastructure is not there. The place where governments involvement makes sense is in infrastructure investments - so I have no problems with incentives to build and consume these game changing technologies.

The farm subsidies made sense in the 30s and the 40s, the investment in the highway system in the 50s made sense - and likewise, the investment in new-age energy technologies these days make sense. This is exactly where government needs to step in and provide the investment and long-term burden. It was true when DARPA developed networking in the 60s and 70s and the space investment of the 50s to 70s did wonders for the industrial success of this country. This is the place for government investment. The places where enterprising people will not be able to lift it by themselves because the investment is high and it will take a while to see the benefits.

Heck, in a financial system where publicly owned private enterprise via the stock market is built on quarterly results - it is the only way to get these things done...

Government picks winners and losers. It's crony capitalism and leads to excesses like we've seen on Wall Street where gains are privitized and losses are socialized. I say let the best technology win, with no subsidies. If it's coal, I'm fine with it. Not only is crony capitalism corrupt, but it's suboptimal. Bureaucrats have demonstrated over and over that they're really bad at picking winners and losers. They run into Hayek's Knowledge Problem, and that's why the market will generally make the best choice. Jonas Salk once said that if the government was the sole provider of polio research we would have had the world's most advanced iron lung, but no vaccine.

As for nuclear, "moving toward" is not the same as "beginning construction". There's so much useless regulation surrounding these plants, it's impossible to build them in this country.

The truth is, we're awash in oil and more is being discovered every day. Oil is expensive because it's priced by a cartel. Break the cartel or avoid it altogether. Peak oil has been predicted time and time again, and always turns out to be false. Let energy costs rise or fall to their real levels and people will act accordingly. We have plenty of domestic sources of petroleum to satisfy our needs for decades, in which time we can develop technologies privately to replace them.
 
It's going to take about a 1/4 century for LV's real estate market to break even.

Not looking for an investment, just a house to own. They are cheap houses, you can buy a 3k square foot house in cash for what a downpayment is in LA. I figure I have at least 4-5 years until the prices even creep up a little if at all.
 
Vegas blows. IMO, it's only cool to visit for a few days.

If I had to live there I'd pick 'burb of Henderson. If it's the climate that's appealing I'd look to Scottsdale, AZ before the Vegas metro.
 
Government picks winners and losers. It's crony capitalism and leads to excesses like we've seen on Wall Street where gains are privitized and losses are socialized. I say let the best technology win, with no subsidies.

This is true to a point. But, when you need the infrastructure - you make an educated guess, invest in it, and let it go from there. The Utopian dream of "do nothing, the market will figure it out" has shown itself to be just as bad as over-regulation - either by the creation of troll bridges protected by interested parties or by not having enough long-term investment to bring you to a place where you can stand on the shoulders of giants to continue and invent.

In this case, it is pretty clear that oil is a resource that is unlikely to get cheaper. So you have to invest in alternative options and let them, within reason based on acceptable infrastructure, fight it out. The cool thing is that if for some reason we find ways to get oil cheaply in the future - the electric grid can be powered by oil, just as it can be powered by coal, nuclear, geo-thermal, wind, solar, bacteria, wave technology and god knows what else.

Investing in electric grid powered transportation infrastructure opens you up to this free-market competition down the line. If coal proves to be the smart way forward, it works, if it's nuclear, still so, if oil is magically plentiful and cheap - again, nothing lost.

Add the fact that technologically it is pretty inefficient to produce the energy on board as is currently done with the internal combustion engine - especially when it is tied directly to the drive-train - using scale for the energy production in a power-plant is usually more efficient (and cleaner) - It is cheaper to buy goods created in bulk than to make all our own goods, the same will be true of energy where we will replace on board conversion (via the IC engine) with storage and use from a mass-production facility.

Bureaucrats have demonstrated over and over that they're really bad at picking winners and losers.

The beauty of using the electric grid as the transportation energy source is that they are picking winners and losers only in one specific area - distribution of the energy, and quite frankly, I think it is pretty clear that the electric grid is a more efficient way of distributing energy than the fleets of fuel tankers that supply the gas stations all around the country... - other than that - the way we create that electricity is open for the free market to optimize.

As for nuclear, "moving toward" is not the same as "beginning construction". There's so much useless regulation surrounding these plants, it's impossible to build them in this country.

You can not make loops with a Boeing 747, you do not run slaloms with an 18 wheeler. Your moves are deliberate and need to be started in advance. This is where we are with regard to nuclear energy in this country - but for the first time in 40 years, we are actually starting to make these moves. It's a start.

The truth is, we're awash in oil and more is being discovered every day. Oil is expensive because it's priced by a cartel. Break the cartel or avoid it altogether. Peak oil has been predicted time and time again, and always turns out to be false. Let energy costs rise or fall to their real levels and people will act accordingly. We have plenty of domestic sources of petroleum to satisfy our needs for decades, in which time we can develop technologies privately to replace them.

How are you going to break the oil-producing countries cartel? With war? Good luck with that...

BTW - the off-shore drilling/Alaska drilling is just as big a tanker to move as the nuclear one is in this country. But the reality is that by making the distribution a commodity via the electric grid - you do more to break the cartel's stronghold when you tell them - if you price us too high, we will use coal or nuclear or whatever else. Moving to the electric grid basically does some of what you want to do with regards to the oil cartels...
 
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http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFN0129249720110202

woot!

A San Francisco judge has tentatively ruled that California did not adequately consider alternatives to creating a carbon market, a decision which clouds the premier U.S. climate change program's outlook.

California's so-called cap-and-trade plan is seen as the vanguard of U.S. climate change policy after the U.S. Congress failed to pass a federal system, and the plan's fate is being watched globally by environmentalists and industry.

An attorney representing the challenge on Tuesday said the ruling, if finalized, could potentially delay implementation of the cap-and-trade carbon market due to start next year.

However, both sides can still file objections to the tentative ruling, which does not say precisely what happens to the cap-and-trade program, and can also be appealed, she said.

"It is really exciting but it is still very tentative," said Alegria De La Cruz, whose clients believe the health effects of the plan have not been studied adequately and could backfire in some regions of the state.

The cap and trade plan establishes state-wide limits on emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases but lets power plants and industry trade rights to emit, which could lead to different emissions in different regions.
 

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