I Love Unions!

[MickZagger]

Like the air traffic controllers? I have no beef with the rank and file, I just think unions are more about their own survival than benefiting their members. They create perverse incentives for corporations that lower their productivity. Bottom line, they're an externality that hurts the company's competitive position.

Of course unions have to make a little cash. Who's going to pay for the company appointed lawyers, union representatives salaries and maintenance of the local union hall. I would hardly say that they are scheming to make absurd profits off the union worker.

Take away Unions and people aren't as eager to work the blue collar jobs that need to be done. My dad's a retired union employee and it treated him very well. Profit sharing, 401K, a great pension plan. Retirement is great.

Again, the only people that have a beef with unions are those who aren't a part of one.

 

[barfo]

So how many of you non-union workers would be able to miss up to 8 months of work, get paid 60% of your wages, have that good of health care coverage and can walk right back to your job and pick up where you left off like you never missed a day?

I would guess very few.

Yeah, but who gives a fuck about you? The company would be slightly more profitable if it could just kick you to the curb, and corporate profits are our sole and only mission here in America.

barfo

 

[MickZagger]

Yeah, but who gives a fuck about you? The company would be slightly more profitable if it could just kick you to the curb, and corporate profits are our sole and only mission.

barfo

The company doesn't need to be slightly more profitable. And your right, they could give a fuck about me, I'm just a number. I like it that way.

They had 45.3 billion in revenue last year. As long as I get my peice of the pie, I'm cool.

Its also cool that my union allows me to get away with everything.

 

[maxiep]

Yeah, but who gives a fuck about you? The company would be slightly more profitable if it could just kick you to the curb, and corporate profits are our sole and only mission here in America.

barfo

Profitable companies create jobs because they invest and expand. Besides, who owns most corporations? People who have 401k's.

The Steelworkers of America and the UAW killed their golden geese. US auto companies can't compete when they're putting their companies $2,400-$2,600 in the hole before the the steel is stamped.

 

[barfo]

Profitable companies create jobs because they invest and expand. Besides, who owns most corporations? People who have 401k's.

Who is more likely to have a 401(k)? A union member, or a non-union member?

The Steelworkers of America and the UAW killed their golden geese. US auto companies can't compete when they're putting their companies $2,400-$2,600 in the hole before the the steel is stamped.

That's not the problem with the auto industry. The lack of imagination and adaptation in the 70s and 80s is what killed it. An extra $2500 could be absorbed if they actually had a better product to sell. Or even an equivalent product to sell.

The problem is they didn't. They had shit. [Although they've been coming around the past few years].

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Check the video

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/chrysler-auto-workers-busted_20100923_dk

 

[barfo]

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I disagree with the %2Fdpp%2 part.

barfo

 

[MickZagger]

Check the video

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/chrysler-auto-workers-busted_20100923_dk

 

[barfo]

Check the video

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/chrysler-auto-workers-busted_20100923_dk

Wow, that sort of thing never happens in non-union shops. Sure.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Who is more likely to have a 401(k)? A union member, or a non-union member?

Both have them in large numbers.

That's not the problem with the auto industry. The lack of imagination and adaptation in the 70s and 80s is what killed it. An extra $2500 could be absorbed if they actually had a better product to sell. Or even an equivalent product to sell.

The problem is they didn't. They had shit. [Although they've been coming around the past few years].

barfo

The auto company's reaction after the oil shocks of the 70s is one factor. Poor quality is a direct result of union workers that don't care. Those extra costs from unionization are made up in quality of materials, which is why US cars feels so cheap. That extra money represents a 5%-10% hit to the total cost of the vehicle. When margins are only 7%-8%, that's a killer.

 

[maxiep]

Wow, that sort of thing never happens in non-union shops. Sure.

barfo

It happens. And those people are fired. In union jobs, they get an annual raise.

 

[barfo]

It happens. And those people are fired. In union jobs, they get an annual raise.

I guess you didn't get to the end of the story.

barfo

 

[barfo]

The auto company's reaction after the oil shocks of the 70s is one factor.

One extremely large factor. If the US had been making Civics instead of Pintos, things would have been much different.

Poor quality is a direct result of union workers that don't care.

And management that doesn't care.

Those extra costs from unionization are made up in quality of materials, which is why US cars feels so cheap. That extra money represents a 5%-10% hit to the total cost of the vehicle. When margins are only 7%-8%, that's a killer.

Well, again, those extra costs are their own damn fault, as is paying for the extra costs by using cheap material instead of accepting a smaller profit. No one forced them to do any of that. The union didn't literally have a gun to their heads.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Both have them in large numbers.

That's a meaningless statement.

And as far as 401k's go, their days are numbered after most of American seniors had their retirement either postponed or cancelled entirely due to their 401k's becoming nearly worthless overnight under Bush/Cheney's "watch". People will not be leaving large sums in them in the future.

 

[MARIS61]

Union or not, American autoworkers are currently underpaid compared to Japanese autoworkers, or German autoworkers, or Swedish autoworkers...

 

[blazerboy30]

Its also cool that my union allows me to get away with everything.

Exactly.

Many people, those who oppose unions, don't try to "get away with everything". They actually have pride in themselves and their work, and respect and expect the same from their co-workers.

 

[BrianFromWA]

So how many of you non-union workers would be able to miss up to 8 months of work, get paid 60% of your wages, have that good of health care coverage and can walk right back to your job and pick up where you left off like you never missed a day?

I would guess very few.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but isn't that covered by my long-term disability insurance? That's a $5 add-on to my health plan?

 

[BlazerWookee]

Yeah, but who gives a fuck about you? The company would be slightly more profitable if it could just kick you to the curb, and corporate profits are our sole and only mission here in America.

barfo

Hyperconclusionarianism is fun!

 

[44Thrilla]

I've been a union member for 10 years and I still don't understand what they do besides provide representation for all the shitty workers the company suspends/tries to terminate. If you're a hard worker, a company is going to take care of you whether you're in a union or not. All a union does is hold back the good workers by preventing the company from promoting them ahead of less qualified workers who have more time... and keeping the company from rewarding people with raises/bonuses based on their performance. Basically, the union turns everybody into equally shitty workers because they're going to make the same no matter how productive/unproductive they are. But to me, the worst thing about unions is that they make it almost impossible for a struggling company to dig itself out of the gutter. All the rules they have in place regarding lay-offs all but guarantee that the company is going to die completely once they start to fail.

 

[MickZagger]

Exactly.

Many people, those who oppose unions, don't try to "get away with everything". They actually have pride in themselves and their work, and respect and expect the same from their co-workers.

Get away with everything in the sense that I can't get fired for frivilous things.

 

[MickZagger]

I've been a union member for 10 years and I still don't understand what they do besides provide representation for all the shitty workers the company suspends/tries to terminate. If you're a hard worker, a company is going to take care of you whether you're in a union or not. All a union does is hold back the good workers by preventing the company from promoting them ahead of less qualified workers who have more time... and keeping the company from rewarding people with raises/bonuses based on their performance. Basically, the union turns everybody into equally shitty workers because they're going to make the same no matter how productive/unproductive they are. But to me, the worst thing about unions is that they make it almost impossible for a struggling company to dig itself out of the gutter. All the rules they have in place regarding lay-offs all but guarantee that the company is going to die completely once they start to fail.

I'm a hard worker that was trying to be taken advantage of by my non-union supervisors. It took 1 grievance and a couple hours worth of time and half pay to straighten that out. Unfair work practice without my union and I would have had to just let it roll. Non-union management will try any way, ethical or not to get the best numbers so they can get their bonuses at the end of the year.

Of course there's pro's and con's about a union, but if you do your job competently you should have no worries and the union should have your back. I work at such a big place I could care-less who's lazy and who's not. Overall enough people work their tail off to get out of there the same time every night.

 

[MickZagger]

Funny how in this thread the people who always take a Neo-con stance are against unions and those with a liberal mindset are for Unions.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Union or not, American autoworkers are currently underpaid compared to Japanese autoworkers, or German autoworkers, or Swedish autoworkers...

Wow! So my boss's brother who makes over $100/hr at his UAW checking to see is certain bolts & nuts are properly tight on autos is underpaid? Don't tell him that.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Funny how in this thread the people who always take a Neo-con stance are against unions and those with a liberal mindset are for Unions.

That is how it works around here. Split on part lines.

You rarely see people thinking for themselves anymore, be it here or anywhere.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

That is how it works around here. Split on part lines.

You rarely see people thinking for themselves anymore, be it here or anywhere.

[sigh] I know. I feel like I'm a dying breed.

 

[barfo]

You rarely see people thinking for themselves anymore, be it here or anywhere.

Do you like to see blind people with Parkinson's drive race cars?

Be careful what you wish for.

barfo

 

[julius]

Do you like to see blind people with Parkinson's drive race cars?

Be careful what you wish for.

barfo

I see you've met my grandfather.

 

[Denny Crane]

Funny how in this thread the people who always take a Neo-con stance are against unions and those with a liberal mindset are for Unions.

What's your take on my opinion, which is:

I'm pro union to a large extent. As I see it, the 1st amendment gives people the right to free association, and a union is a sort of free association.

I am quite convinced that unions provide a great number of benefits to their members, and your getting assistance during seriously rough times (for anyone) is a perfect example.

My gripes with unions are just a few. First, it's not truly a free association. If your workplace is unionized, you should have the option to not participate in the union. Second, unions do socialize a company's profits - which isn't unreasonable as long as it's what the employees want. However, they do not socialize a company's liabilities or losses and that is a huge flaw.

 

[barfo]

Second, unions do socialize a company's profits - which isn't unreasonable as long as it's what the employees want. However, they do not socialize a company's liabilities or losses and that is a huge flaw.

Not sure I understand your point here. If unions socialize profits, don't non-union wages also socialize profits?

When times are bad, don't union contracts up for renewal tend to take a hit? Isn't that "socializing" liabilities and losses?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Not sure I understand your point here. If unions socialize profits, don't non-union wages also socialize profits?

When times are bad, don't union contracts up for renewal tend to take a hit? Isn't that "socializing" liabilities and losses?

barfo

Non-union wages do not socialize profits. There are no contractual obligations to pay non-union employees any certain wage based upon tenure, etc.

In no way do union contracts socialize losses.