I Love Unions!

[barfo]

Non-union wages do not socialize profits. There are no contractual obligations to pay non-union employees any certain wage based upon tenure, etc.

In no way do union contracts socialize losses.

I'm still not getting it. How does having a contract socialize profits? The contract is (usually, I assume) for a fixed wage. If the company makes a lot of profit, or a little profit, or makes a huge loss, the wages are unchanged. So how are the profits being socialized?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm still not getting it. How does having a contract socialize profits? The contract is (usually, I assume) for a fixed wage. If the company makes a lot of profit, or a little profit, or makes a huge loss, the wages are unchanged. So how are the profits being socialized?

barfo

You just showed how the profits are socialized.

If the company lost money and the union members were docked to cover the loss, the losses would be socialized, too.

 

[barfo]

You just showed how the profits are socialized.

No. I showed how they aren't socialized.

If GM makes a contract with a parts supplier for steering columns, is that also "socializing profits"? If not, why is a contract for labor "socializing"?

You haven't explained why you think a union contract socializes profits. Maybe we need to define "socialize"? It seems to me you are using to to mean "something I don't approve of".

barfo

 

[barfo]

If the company lost money and the union members were docked to cover the loss, the losses would be socialized, too.

You really aren't making sense. I agree the union members aren't docked for losses, and therefore losses aren't socialized.
However, the flip side is, they don't get more money if profits are higher, so the profits aren't socialized either.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You're clearly confused.

What is the compensation in union contracts based upon? Profits. The unions demand X% of the profits.

And they do demand more money if the profits are higher, and frequently demand profit sharing clauses in the contracts.

 

[barfo]

You're clearly confused.

What is the compensation in union contracts based upon? Profits. The unions demand X% of the profits.

And they do demand more money if the profits are higher, and frequently demand profit sharing clauses in the contracts.

I see. So you are assuming that union contracts are basically profit-sharing plans. I do not believe that is correct, although I am no expert.
I think some - definitely not all, probably not most - union contracts include a profit-sharing component, but I believe in most cases this is a very small amount compared to the fixed hourly wages. If you have evidence to the contrary, though, I'd be delighted to see it.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I see. So you are assuming that union contracts are basically profit-sharing plans. I do not believe that is correct, although I am no expert.
I think some - definitely not all, probably not most - union contracts include a profit-sharing component, but I believe in most cases this is a very small amount compared to the fixed hourly wages. If you have evidence to the contrary, though, I'd be delighted to see it.

barfo

What are the fixed hourly wages based on? Think about it.

 

[barfo]

What are the fixed hourly wages based on? Think about it.

Again, you aren't making sense. What are the fixed hourly wages for a non-union employee based on?

The answer in both cases is, the going rate, and what the individual/union was able to negotiate, and what the company thinks it can afford.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Again, you aren't making sense. What are the fixed hourly wages for a non-union employee based on?

The answer in both cases is, the going rate, and what the individual/union was able to negotiate, and what the company thinks it can afford.

barfo

It's not the going rate.

It's a % of the profits.

 

[barfo]

It's not the going rate.

It's a % of the profits.

Nonsense. If that were true, people would have to work for free at unprofitable companies, and would be massively compensated at highly profitable companies. That doesn't happen, except marginally.

barfo

 

[44Thrilla]

Funny how in this thread the people who always take a Neo-con stance are against unions and those with a liberal mindset are for Unions.

I'm actually a liberal, believe it or not. Love the idea on unions, but hate dealing with the negatives of them day in and day out.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nonsense. If that were true, people would have to work for free at unprofitable companies, and would be massively compensated at highly profitable companies. That doesn't happen, except marginally.

barfo

Or there'd be fewer auto workers working a lot of overtime for less pay so the company's profits would be much higher. Seems like union members ARE massively compensated at high revenue companies.

Unprofitable companies are doomed to fail, unless they're some sort of startup. In the latter case, they're not likely union shops and people tend to work for equity.

 

[MARIS61]

I'm not trying to be snarky, but isn't that covered by my long-term disability insurance? That's a $5 add-on to my health plan?

Uh, no.

No healthcare insurance plan can guarantee your employer will hold your job for you for 8 months. Or even 1 day.

 

[MARIS61]

Wow! So my boss's brother who makes over $100/hr at his UAW checking to see is certain bolts & nuts are properly tight on autos is underpaid? Don't tell him that.

I won't tell him how you mock him and ridicule his job either.

A loose nut can destroy an engine or kill a couple families. I don't want an illegal alien checking mine, and I doubt Ford Motors wants to take that risk either. To me, he's worth more per hour than a doctor or a lawyer or a policeman or a teacher or an oil baron or a Navy Admiral...

My guess is he does a lot more for his employer and their customers than you have ever done for yours.

 

[MARIS61]

Do you like to see blind people with Parkinson's drive race cars?

barfo

I would so pay to see that!

 

[MARIS61]

Non-union wages do not socialize profits. There are no contractual obligations to pay non-union employees any certain wage based upon tenure, etc.

Often there are.

At 2 of my hirings I negotiated guaranteed yearly raises based solely on my future tenure. One was a small business, the other a National chain.

 

[MARIS61]

You're clearly confused.

What is the compensation in union contracts based upon? Profits. The unions demand X% of the profits.

And they do demand more money if the profits are higher, and frequently demand profit sharing clauses in the contracts.

Some unions do that, as do some non-union employees.

Many unions work for non-profit entities where this would of course not be the case.

I have actually had a profit-sharing plan only at my non-union jobs, 4 of them to be exact.

At neither of the 2 unions I worked in did we ever have a profit-sharing plan.

 

[MARIS61]

It's not the going rate.

It's a % of the profits.

You are obviously wrong, and Barfo is pummeling you with basic economic facts known to anyone who took Bus-101.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Uh, no.

No healthcare insurance plan can guarantee your employer will hold your job for you for 8 months. Or even 1 day.

Gotcha. I was talking about the 60% salary for long-term disability.

 

[MickZagger]

You are obviously wrong, and Barfo is pummeling you with basic economic facts known to anyone who took Bus-101.

Somebody give Maris butter, cause he's on a roll.

 

[Denny Crane]

You are obviously wrong, and Barfo is pummeling you with basic economic facts known to anyone who took Bus-101.

Business 101. You need to take it.

Profit = Income - Expenses

Expenses are the employee salaries and everything else, so:

Profit = Income - (Salaries + Everything else)

Which translates to:

Profit = Income - Salaries - Everything else

Profit + Salaries = Income - Everything else

So figure out why if Salaries is 0 why profits are significantly higher. And why if Profit is $100 and Salaries is $100, the workers have taken 50% of the take.

And that IS how the unions figure what their take should be.

The profits are in fact socialized. If one worker paints 10 widgets and hour and another paints 5 widgets an hour, the first guy is worth 2x the pay of the other, but he's getting the same. In fact, it's an incentive for the really good widget painter to slack off and only paint 5 an hour.

 

[barfo]

Business 101. You need to take it.

Profit = Income - Expenses

Expenses are the employee salaries and everything else, so:

Profit = Income - (Salaries + Everything else)

Which translates to:

Profit = Income - Salaries - Everything else

Profit + Salaries = Income - Everything else

So figure out why if Salaries is 0 why profits are significantly higher. And why if Profit is $100 and Salaries is $100, the workers have taken 50% of the take.

Ooh, equations. Can I play?

Profit = Income - Expenses

Expenses are the raw materials costs and everything else, so:

Profit = Income - (Raw Materials + Everything else)

Which translates to:

Profit = Income - Raw Materials - Everything else

Profit + Raw Materials = Income - Everything else

So figure out why if Raw Materials is 0 why profits are significantly higher. And why if Profit is $100 and Raw Materials is $100, the suppliers have taken 50% of the take.


And then ask yourself if that is socialism.

And that IS how the unions figure what their take should be.

The ability of the company to pay, when well understood, should of course be a factor in wage negotiations. I certainly use that information, and I'm not in a union. Why shouldn't the union use whatever knowledge they have?

The profits are in fact socialized. If one worker paints 10 widgets and hour and another paints 5 widgets an hour, the first guy is worth 2x the pay of the other, but he's getting the same. In fact, it's an incentive for the really good widget painter to slack off and only paint 5 an hour.

And that sort of thing happens plenty in non-union shops too. So I guess they are also socialized?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Ooh, equations. Can I play?

Profit = Income - Expenses

Expenses are the raw materials costs and everything else, so:

Profit = Income - (Raw Materials + Everything else)

Which translates to:

Profit = Income - Raw Materials - Everything else

Profit + Raw Materials = Income - Everything else

So figure out why if Raw Materials is 0 why profits are significantly higher. And why if Profit is $100 and Raw Materials is $100, the suppliers have taken 50% of the take.


And then ask yourself if that is socialism.



The ability of the company to pay, when well understood, should of course be a factor in wage negotiations. I certainly use that information, and I'm not in a union. Why shouldn't the union use whatever knowledge they have?



And that sort of thing happens plenty in non-union shops too. So I guess they are also socialized?

barfo

Yes, it's part of the plan to minimize the other expenses. Like they replace workers with robots, close a factor if the rest can handle the load, or buy Japanese steel instead of the american union made overpriced kind. And that is something the unions should consider - if they're pricing products they make out of reach of the intended consumer.

I'm sure you've read plenty of corporate financials to know that almost all of the P&L statements have salaries as the highest expense, and by a longshot.

How easy is it to fire a less productive union employee? Non union workers, especially in At Will states like California, can be fired with ease. Non union workplaces don't have to pay the least productive employees as much as anyone else; they have the freedom to pay the guy who paints 10 widgets an hour a higher rate.

 

[barfo]

Yes, it's part of the plan to minimize the other expenses. Like they replace workers with robots, close a factor if the rest can handle the load, or buy Japanese steel instead of the american union made overpriced kind. And that is something the unions should consider - if they're pricing products they make out of reach of the intended consumer.

Disagree. That's not for the unions to consider. Unions don't price products. Companies price products. Unions price labor.

I'm sure you've read plenty of corporate financials to know that almost all of the P&L statements have salaries as the highest expense, and by a longshot.

And I'm sure you haven't read plenty of corporate financials if you believe that. It depends very much on the industry.

How easy is it to fire a less productive union employee?

Not very easy, but contrary to rumor it can be done.

Non union workers, especially in At Will states like California, can be fired with ease.

Actually California has the least employer-friendly employment laws in the country.

Non union workplaces don't have to pay the least productive employees as much as anyone else; they have the freedom to pay the guy who paints 10 widgets an hour a higher rate.

Ok, there's something, at last, that we can agree about. They do have the ability to do that if they so choose.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

If one worker paints 10 widgets and hour and another paints 5 widgets an hour, the first guy is worth 2x the pay of the other, but he's getting the same. In fact, it's an incentive for the really good widget painter to slack off and only paint 5 an hour.

Nonsense.

When I buy widgets I skip right over the sloppily painted ones that the methhead cranked out (pun intended) and select one of the meticulously decorated and trimmed ones the serious artisan spent ample time on to get it right.

Quality is what you get from unions.

Quantity is what you get from China.

 

[Denny Crane]

Disagree. That's not for the unions to consider. Unions don't price products. Companies price products. Unions price labor.

Take a look at the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement. What is BRI? Get back to me.

And I'm sure you haven't read plenty of corporate financials if you believe that. It depends very much on the industry.

That deserves a big LOL.

Not very easy, but contrary to rumor it can be done.

Actually California has the least employer-friendly employment laws in the country.


Ok, there's something, at last, that we can agree about. They do have the ability to do that if they so choose.

barfo

So you agree the profits are socialized by unions. That's a start.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nonsense.

When I buy widgets I skip right over the sloppily painted ones that the methhead cranked out (pun intended) and select one of the meticulously decorated and trimmed ones the serious artisan spent ample time on to get it right.

Quality is what you get from unions.

Quantity is what you get from China.

You assume the widgets are painted with differing quality.

I'll give you a different example, perhaps a bit closer to home. How about the oyster shuckers at Oregon Oyster Farms Inc. One shucks 10 oysters a minute and another 5 oysters a minute.

Now tell me you sift through shucked oysters and can tell the difference in who shucked which ones.

 

[barfo]

Take a look at the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement. What is BRI? Get back to me.

Yes, the NBPA is an excellent example of the typical union. Good point!

That deserves a big LOL.

Good comeback!

So you agree the profits are socialized by unions. That's a start.

I agree to nothing of the sort. Seems like you are out of arguments?

barfo

 

[hasoos]

Unions meant something when there was no global economy. Now that there is a global economy, and big companies can just ship their manufacturing to some overseas plant where the workers are treated like slave labor in order to circumvent unions, unions really don't have much power.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, the NBPA is an excellent example of the typical union. Good point!



Good comeback!



I agree to nothing of the sort. Seems like you are out of arguments?

barfo

The NBPA is an excellent example of a union. Or are you suggesting they're not a union, like you recently suggested they could make automobiles without steel?