I Love Unions!

[Denny Crane]

Unions meant something when there was no global economy. Now that there is a global economy, and big companies can just ship their manufacturing to some overseas plant where the workers are treated like slave labor in order to circumvent unions, unions really don't have much power.

Why aren't the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers actually International?

 

[barfo]

The NBPA is an excellent example of a union. Or are you suggesting they're not a union, like you recently suggested they could make automobiles without steel?

It's a highly atypical example of a union, for obvious reasons. And WTF about making autos without steel? Of course that is possible (aluminum and fiberglass) but I don't remember saying anything like that. Remind me?

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

You assume the widgets are painted with differing quality.

Having worked years in both union and non-union jobs, I know it for a fact. Union employees, and most well-compensated employees take deep pride in their craftsmanship. Poorly compensated employees and those paid by the piece take every shortcut they can and screw their employer over out of spite.

I'll give you a different example, perhaps a bit closer to home. How about the oyster shuckers at Oregon Oyster Farms Inc. One shucks 10 oysters a minute and another 5 oysters a minute.

Now tell me you sift through shucked oysters and can tell the difference in who shucked which ones.

Oysters disgust me. I never eat them. But I fail to see what point you're trying to make here. If you are suggesting union workers are slower or less efficient than non-union workers you've obviously never done manual labor for a living.

...

 

[MARIS61]

Unions meant something when there was no global economy. Now that there is a global economy, and big companies can just ship their manufacturing to some overseas plant where the workers are treated like slave labor in order to circumvent unions, unions really don't have much power.

True, and because we encourage them to do so by buying their products America no longer stands for Freedom and Justice.

 

[Denny Crane]

It's a highly atypical example of a union, for obvious reasons. And WTF about making autos without steel? Of course that is possible (aluminum and fiberglass) but I don't remember saying anything like that. Remind me?

barfo

http://sportstwo.com/threads/167767-I-Love-Unions!?p=2428141&viewfull=1#post2428141

If "Everything else" is 0, then they're not paying for steel or aluminum or fiberglass, are they?

The NBPA is a typical union.

Read this:

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-how-labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy

 

[Denny Crane]

Having worked years in both union and non-union jobs, I know it for a fact. Union employees, and most well-compensated employees take deep pride in their craftsmanship. Poorly compensated employees and those paid by the piece take every shortcut they can and screw their employer over out of spite.

Oysters disgust me. I never eat them. But I fail to see what point you're trying to make here. If you are suggesting union workers are slower or less efficient than non-union workers you've obviously never done manual labor for a living.

I'm talking about two union workers who shuck oysters at different rates for the same pay. That's socializing the profits, and the guy who shucks 10/minute is doing the work of two other union workers (at the same pay) who shuck 5/minute each.

 

[barfo]

http://sportstwo.com/threads/167767-I-Love-Unions!?p=2428141&viewfull=1#post2428141

If "Everything else" is 0, then they're not paying for steel or aluminum or fiberglass, are they?

Wow. I think maybe you should adjust your medication. Do you realize you are making fun of your own argument?

The NBPA is a typical union.

Ok, I get it. You are pulling my leg. Very good. Your "crazy Denny" impression is really good. You had me going there for a bit, but you went too far with this one.

Read this:

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-how-labor-unions-affect-jobs-and-the-economy

I'm not taking your recommendations. You are either insane or a prankster or an insane prankster.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Wow. I think maybe you should adjust your medication. Do you realize you are making fun of your own argument?



Ok, I get it. You are pulling my leg. Very good. Your "crazy Denny" impression is really good. You had me going there for a bit, but you went too far with this one.



I'm not taking your recommendations. You are either insane or a prankster or an insane prankster.

barfo

When the law is on your side, argue the law. When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, make an ad hominem attack.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I have worked at both union and non union jobs. I have actually worked at both a union and non union proffession as well (HVAC when I was in college). Unions, for the most part, are great for union employees. You get outstanding benefits, ridiculous job security, a nice retirement, and the ability to be the worst employee in a company, and still get the best job based on seniority. I am all for people earning as much as they can, but should unskilled laborers in warehouses, without HS degrees, and sometimes criminal records be paid $25-$27 an hour with $3-$4 an hour additionally going into a pention fund for them? I don't think so. Should a shitty teacher be able to keep their job simply because they have tenure? I don't think so.

 

[MARIS61]

I'm talking about two union workers who shuck oysters at different rates for the same pay. That's socializing the profits, and the guy who shucks 10/minute is doing the work of two other union workers (at the same pay) who shuck 5/minute each.

The thing is, that situation pretty much never exists when people are properly compensated for their labor.

In the rare instances that it arises people get replaced, even in unions.

Your problem is you believe the hype about unions that the right-wing throws around as if it is true, which it is not.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The thing is, that situation pretty much never exists when people are properly compensated for their labor.

In the rare instances that it arises people get replaced, even in unions.

Your problem is you believe the hype about unions that the right-wing throws around as if it is true, which it is not.

I'm sorry, but that exists all the time in production type union jobs. If the standars set by the company is 5 oysters shucked, then a union employee has absolutely no reason to shuck more. I have several friends that work for a grocery warehouse, and all brag that they pride themselves on never picking more than 100% of their standards. So in that environment, unions promote laziness.

 

[Denny Crane]

The thing is, that situation pretty much never exists when people are properly compensated for their labor.

In the rare instances that it arises people get replaced, even in unions.

Your problem is you believe the hype about unions that the right-wing throws around as if it is true, which it is not.

The problem, Maris, is that some people are just better at doing something than others. Like the realtor who kicks your ass and outsells you, or the one you outsell. They have the same profit/pay motives.

 

[barfo]

When the law is on your side, argue the law. When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, make an ad hominem attack.

Sorry if I offended. But you are just typing random shit rather than trying to make a coherent argument.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Sorry if I offended. But you are just typing random shit rather than trying to make a coherent argument.

barfo

I typed nothing random.

The points you haven't come close to refuting:

1) Unions socialize companies' profits
2) Unions don't socialize failure

And you really should read the link, like I read the ones you post.

 

[barfo]

I typed nothing random.

The points you haven't come close to refuting:

1) Unions socialize companies' profits
2) Unions don't socialize failure

You have yet to make those points, you have merely asserted such. Besides, I agree with #2 so there is no reason to debate that.

And you really should read the link, like I read the ones you post.

I think I can state without any chance of being wrong that the number of links you post that I read is far more than the total number of links I post.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

You have yet to make those points, you have merely asserted such. Besides, I agree with #2 so there is no reason to debate that.



I think I can state without any chance of being wrong that the number of links you post that I read is far more than the total number of links I post.

barfo

I've made the 1st point repeatedly. Two union workers make the same money but don't have the same work performance.

 

[barfo]

I've made the 1st point repeatedly. Two union workers make the same money but don't have the same work performance.

And I've repeatedly pointed out that that happens all the time in non-union shops.
And that isn't socialism anyway.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

And I've repeatedly pointed out that that happens all the time in non-union shops.
And that isn't socialism anyway.

barfo

It is socialism when the UNION owns a share of the profit/take and divides it up among its members as it sees fit.

It's completely different from a non-union shop, because there is no collective bargaining. As I've repeatedly pointed out, employees of a non-union shop who are deemed not competent enough are trivially fired.

 

[barfo]

It is socialism when the UNION owns a share of the profit/take and divides it up among its members as it sees fit.

Which doesn't happen, since every union contract is a contract signed by both company and union. You act like unions have unilateral powers. They don't. You act like compensation is tightly tied to profit. It isn't, except in very rare cases.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Which doesn't happen, since every union contract is a contract signed by both company and union. You act like unions have unilateral powers. They don't. You act like compensation is tightly tied to profit. It isn't, except in very rare cases.

barfo

Unions have quite a bit of power that non-union workers do not have. Like the ability to strike and collective bargain.

Compensation is tightly tied to profit which I demonstrated with the math and you haven't at all come close to showing that it's otherwise.

You can't make it out so the basic rule (profit/loss = income - expenses) isn't applied.

If you'd have read the link I posted, you'd maybe understand why union salary raises can't be fully passed on to the consumer, so some portion of those raises must be coming from profits. Even if they could be fully passed on, it'd still be reducing or taking from the company's profits. If the raises do, then so dos the entire sum of the salaries paid out.

And surely if a company far exceeds profit expectations, the union is going to demand a huge salary increase or other compensation (like pension fund contributions or other benefits). Why? Because they want their "fair share" of the profits.

It has to be a deal between the union and the company that's at least somewhat reasonable or you end up with GM going broke. Profit is not the same thing as cash flow - the company has to be able to pay out dividends as promised to shareholders (oops, GM shows unions take those shareholders to the cleaners, too). Expenses like buying new machines for the factory are capital expenses and are paid for from the profits as well.

It's not like the unions want to strangle the golden goose, but they absolutely have their hands wrapped around its neck really tight.

All this is coming from a guy who likes unions (me).

 

[Denny Crane]

The relevant information about extra protections and powers that unions have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action

United States labor law also draws a distinction, in the case of private sector employers covered by the National Labor Relations Act, between "economic" and "unfair labor practice" strikes. An employer may not fire, but may permanently replace, workers who engage in a strike over economic issues. On the other hand, employers who commit unfair labor practices (ULPs) may not replace employees who strike over ULPs, and must fire any strikebreakers they have hired as replacements in order to reinstate the striking workers.