If you could only chose one to keep; Dame or Ant

[1 Eye Jack]

The drama Ant has created!!! Im outraged!!! As sly would say

funny part is this is exactly what you hope for as one star reaches his peak you add another one to the roster, that’s exactly how you avoid being Sacremento/Detroit. We are extremely lucky to be having this type of dilemma

 

[blazerfan11]

If the franchise trades Dame in my view they send a msg to the rest of the league that loyalty and greatness don't mean much in Portland ....to me it's a chump move on every level....Dame is the key to contending in this era......throw that away and you are risking maybe never finding a guy like him again. If the Blazers went that direction I'd certainly be more than a little disappointed. I don't care if it gets you another allstar...it won't give you a Dame quality leader....count me out of any scenario that includes trading Dame....not a fan....Dame is at the perfect age to have a 3-5 year window to win it all. Ant didn't carry us to a win last night against the Bulls....and he hasn't withstood the physical banging that Dame has for 10 years....not sure how Ant will handle that sort of attention...he's a really skinny kid. Dame is special, loves the Blazers and has put his stamp on this team for the eras.....this is where he gets to compete for a chip.

How exactly would it be a chump move to send Lillard to a team that regularly gets out of the first round, and is competing for a championship and is a bigger market than Portland? Let’s face it, Lillard has a much better chance of winning a championship on such a team, and more people would get to watch him.

 

[Tince]

I was referring to the team results, not him as an individual. And who knows if Ant turns them into a contender. But that hasn't happened so far, so not sure what the contrast is. Also, you would be trying (again) to get to contender status with the assets Dame would bring along with Ant's contract of perhaps around $20M vs Dame's $42.5M next year. That is Ant + assets + a $22M player. Again, it's not a pro trade Dame thing. But the reality of the results and the financial situation/cap management can not be dismissed.

I agree that Ant's next contract will be of a lower dollar amount than Dame, but his production is likely to be less as well. Ant is 2 contracts away from having the experience and body to be an elite all-NBA players. This means, not only would he need to improve that much, but he would have to resign sign with us twice, and in that case, his 2nd contract is likely to be in the same cap % as Dame's. So we'd be taking on all that risk, to hopefully end up in the same position.

If Ant is highly likely to be as good as Dame, you keep both of them and figure it out from there. Starting with two all-time Top 75 players is a much better position of strength than one.

 

[blazerkor]

I have no problem at all in sticking with Dame, in fact I hope that’s the plan. A rebuild comes with no more guarantee of success than a reboot around Dame. That said, whatever the choice is, it has to be done with an objective in mind. Keeping Dame, but failing to put enough talent around him to have a chance to compete does a disservice to Dame, his teammates and the fans. If moves can’t be found that really move the meter towards that objective, it would be irresponsible not to get the best value for Dame while helping him win a title elsewhere. Cronin seems like a smart guy. I think he can figure it out.

I hope you're right about Cronin but I honestly don't see why Cronin couldn't get two big time players to go with Dame. I've put these trades out there a bit too much but trading RoCo to the Bulls for our pick back to us and DJJ going to the Sixers along with CJ and as many future draft assets as it takes to get Simmons seems like a very easy trade to make since it has been widely reported that Morey offered Simmons for CJ, three future firsts and future swaps. You would have to think with DJJ added and that reportedly being Morey's offer that Cronin could bring that number of draft assets down considerably but shouldn't die on that hill because overpaying for last years runner up DPOY and an all nba guy with the talent and skills of Simmons shouldn't be a problem. We don't have to win that deal, we just have to set our team up to win.

I also think that the Celtics are very unhappy with the performance they're getting out of their team and think they are ready to shake things up. I don't think Brad Stevens could turn down Ant, Norm and Larry for Jaylen Brown and whatever player(s) Stevens wanted to throw in to make roster numbers work.

I do think having Simmons would mean trading Nurk but I would think that could be done too for a better fitting big like Christian Wood. I know those are a lot of moves and I know that makes people think that they are unlikely but why would they be when each one of them individually is pretty much a move the other teams' front offices would view as a must have.

A core starting next season of Dame, Nas, Brown, Simmons and Wood is an instant contender, probably even a title favorite. We just have to hope that Cronin is willing to be ambitious, that he isn't attached to the players currently around Dame and that he doesn't care about overpaying if it means putting this team in a position to win titles. Winning individual exchanges with other teams in terms of personnel and draft capital means nothing if it doesn't translate into playoff/finals wins, just like losing moves when trading with other GMs can be a good thing if it equals winning a championship.

 

[Natebishop3]

What are the odds Ant or a couple lottery picks turn into a top 75 player in the NBA who decides to ride out 2 contracts before deciding to stay in Portland in his prime?

I'm assuming those odds are less than keeping a top 75 player in his prime who is already in Portland.

Is Dame still playing at a top 75 level? And if he is, how much longer will he be playing at that level?

 

[blazerkor]

How exactly would it be a chump move to send Lillard to a team that regularly gets out of the first round, and is competing for a championship and is a bigger market than Portland? Let’s face it, Lillard has a much better chance of winning a championship on such a team, and more people would get to watch him.

Yeah, I don't think that trading Dame to a good place is a "chump move" but it better be a trade that we couldn't afford to turn down as well as a trade that puts Dame in a good spot. That means we would have to get all nba talent back for Dame because Dame is an all nba talent and that getting that talent back for Dame wouldn't strip the team we're sending Dame to of the ability to win big. I think that's a harder ask than getting big value in a deal that includes Ant.

 

[Tince]

Is Dame still playing at a top 75 level? And if he is, how much longer will he be playing at that level?

I bet Dame has more games at a top 75 level left in him than Ant will have in his entire career (and I don't hate Ant at all). I'm not a doctor, but if Dame can come back healthy, he probably has a couple years at all-nba level left him in. What do you think?

 

[Tince]

I was referring to the team results, not him as an individual. And who knows if Ant turns them into a contender. But that hasn't happened so far, so not sure what the contrast is. Also, you would be trying (again) to get to contender status with the assets Dame would bring along with Ant's contract of perhaps around $20M vs Dame's $42.5M next year. That is Ant + assets + a $22M player. Again, it's not a pro trade Dame thing. But the reality of the results and the financial situation/cap management can not be dismissed.

I agree that Ant's next contract will be of lower value than Dame, but his production is likely to be less as well. Ant is 2 contracts away from having the experience and body to be an elite all-NBA players. This means, not only would he need to improve that much, but he would have to resign sign with us twice, and in that case, his 2nd contract is likely to be in the same cap % as Dame's. So we'd be taking on all that risk, to hopefully end up in the same position.

If Ant is highly likely to be as good as Dame, you keep both of them and figure it out from there. Starting with two all-time Top 75 players is a much better position of strength than one.

 

[Natebishop3]

I bet Dame has more games at a top 75 level left in him than Ant will have in his entire career (and I don't hate Ant at all). I'm not a doctor, but if Dame can come back healthy, he probably has a couple years at all-nba level left him in. What do you think?

I agree, however you have to ask what would have a better chance at a championship in the long run, Dame and some rejects (per the usual) or Ant and whatever awesome package we could get for Dame?

 

[Tince]

I agree, however you have to ask what would have a better chance at a championship in the long run, Dame and some rejects (per the usual) or Ant and whatever awesome package we could get for Dame?

I reject the idea that just because Olshey decided Dame and some rejects was the only path, that it is the only path. I think it would be MUCH easier to find a GM who would try to add non-rejects next to Dame as it would be to fine another Top 75 player after getting rid of Dame.

If we could find a GM who is like the 33% of people here, then we should be able to get as much or more value for Ant because he could be as good, will make less money, etc. If Ant can net us a legit perennial all-star I'd do that deal 7 days a week. As we know all too well, it only takes one smart GM to isolate the stupid GM. If Ant can't even get us an all-star, that shows you the league doesn't think his potential is nearly as high as the people wearing the red/black glasses.

 

[blazerkor]

I bet Dame has more games at a top 75 level left in him than Ant will have in his entire career (and I don't hate Ant at all). I'm not a doctor, but if Dame can come back healthy, he probably has a couple years at all-nba level left him in. What do you think?

I think he has three more seasons playing at the level he was at last season... possibly playing at an even higher level if you believe what his surgeon said about how much his movement will improve compared to the last four years. Then after those three seasons, I think much like Chris Paul or LeBron and some other guys who are fanatical about taking care of themselves, Dame will have a slow digression over those following four or five seasons where he goes from an all star level to a very high quality role playing starter level. I think Dame could be very good until he's 39 or 40.

 

[calvin natt]

Keeping Lillard so long will come back to bite them in the ass.

 

[Tince]

Keeping Lillard so long will come back to bite them in the ass.

How so? What would doing the opposite do?

If you say keeping Dame will end up in us not getting to the finals in the next 5 years, I'd probably agree.

If you said trading Dame would get us to the finals in the next 5 years, I'd strongly disagree.

 

[TBpup]

I agree that Ant's next contract will be of lower value than Dame, but his production is likely to be less as well. Ant is 2 contracts away from having the experience and body to be an elite all-NBA players. This means, not only would he need to improve that much, but he would have to resign sign with us twice, and in that case, his 2nd contract is likely to be in the same cap % as Dame's. So we'd be taking on all that risk, to hopefully end up in the same position.

If Ant is highly likely to be as good as Dame, you keep both of them and figure it out from there. Starting with two all-time Top 75 players is a much better position of strength than one.

Agreed, Ant will have lower production. But with the $22+ million dollar difference, can you make up for that difference, or even surpass it? Will it open a bigger, longer window? And that doesn't count the assets, players and draft picks Dame would bring back? Typically, you don't have a player that will plug into the position of the star leaving and be even 50% of what has left. I think we at least have that with Ant. When Clyde left, we had nothing to replace him. Same with Roy. We have a much better option with Ant.

Add in the addition cap space and assets we would get back, and who knows how good that could be? Likely no worse than the often swept playoff series we have had, and we re-set the window from getting close to closing, to just opening up.

 

[GDiama]

Agreed, Ant will have lower production. But with the $22+ million dollar difference, can you make up for that difference, or even surpass it? Will it open a bigger, longer window? And that doesn't count the assets, players and draft picks Dame would bring back? Typically, you don't have a player that will plug into the position of the star leaving and be even 50% of what has left. I think we at least have that with Ant. When Clyde left, we had nothing to replace him. Same with Roy. We have a much better option with Ant.

Add in the addition cap space and assets we would get back, and who knows how good that could be? Likely no worse than the often swept playoff series we have had, and we re-set the window from getting close to closing, to just opening up.

Ι don't trust at all the Blazers with cap space. We never really use that correctly. And it's a real possibility that removing 22M would just ease the tax and won't mean more cap space really.

 

[Lanny]

What say you?

This is a particularly ignorant question.

 

[Lanny]

I have always been super strong Don't trade Lillard. And a couple months ago I was pretty down on Anf. (Do you see why I have been married four times?)
The changes in Anf's game have affected me in two ways. Of course it's improved my opinion of what Anf can do but it's also made me wonder if Lillard can ever really change and become what Billups wants. I think Anf is a better fit with Billups. And I think if Billups was able to improve Anf's playmaking so much, he can also improve his defense.

Anfernee did not change over night.

 

[Tince]

Agreed, Ant will have lower production. But with the $22+ million dollar difference, can you make up for that difference, or even surpass it? Will it open a bigger, longer window? And that doesn't count the assets, players and draft picks Dame would bring back? Typically, you don't have a player that will plug into the position of the star leaving and be even 50% of what has left. I think we at least have that with Ant. When Clyde left, we had nothing to replace him. Same with Roy. We have a much better option with Ant.

Add in the addition cap space and assets we would get back, and who knows how good that could be? Likely no worse than the often swept playoff series we have had, and we re-set the window from getting close to closing, to just opening up.

I get where you're going with this, but some big assumptions have to happen for all this to work out. Why not trade Ant and the contract you see as far more valuable for someone better than Dame to combine with Dame? If you see Ant + Contract being more valuable than Dame + Contract, then it seems to be the safest and best move would be to trade Ant, not Dame. Now I don't actually think the league will value Ant + Contract more for the same reasons I wouldn't get rid of Dame in order to get Ant the keys.

 

[Tince]

Ι don't trust at all the Blazers with cap space. We never really use that correctly. And it's a real possibility that removing 22M would just ease the tax and won't mean more cap space really.

Both excellent points. What the salary savings actually meants in terms of cap room and Portland's ability to land a top free agent, which we haven't done in decades is a big ask.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

This is a particularly ignorant question.

At the least, 18 members of this forum disagree with you.

 

[TBpup]

I get where you're going with this, but some big assumptions have to happen for all this to work out. Why not trade Ant and the contract you see as far more valuable for someone better than Dame to combine with Dame? If you see Ant + Contract being more valuable than Dame + Contract, then it seems to be the safest and best move would be to trade Ant, not Dame. Now I don't actually think the league will value Ant + Contract more for the same reasons I wouldn't get rid of Dame in order to get Ant the keys.

But we don't have Ant + contract to trade. The 'contract' is only available IF management were to make better use of the salary cap and take advantage of the cap space they would have with Dame (and CJ) gone. That is over $70,000,000 in salaries off the books with Ant's going from $3.9 to say ~$20M. That is a $50M difference with which to take advantage of. Plus the picks, and any other assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room, but not nearly so much for just 2 players....who have shown that together, they don't produce very good team results.

 

[wizenheimer]

I agree, however you have to ask what would have a better chance at a championship in the long run, Dame and some rejects (per the usual) or Ant and whatever awesome package we could get for Dame?

LOL...could you be any more obvious?

your two choices are Dame + rejects vs Ant + awesome. Nope, no agenda evident there!

if Ant is so good, why couldn't trading him yield awesome? Then it would be Dame + Awesome. I'll take door #3

 

[Tince]

But we don't have Ant + contract to trade. The 'contract' is only available IF management were to make better use of the salary cap and take advantage of the cap space they would have with Dame (and CJ) gone. That is over $70,000,000 in salaries off the books with Ant's going from $3.9 to say ~$20M. That is a $50M difference with which to take advantage of. Plus the picks, and any other assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room, but not nearly so much for just 2 players....who have shown that together, they don't produce very good team results.

So you're suggesting we trade Dame/CJ for expiring contracts and basically let them walk for nothing outside of cap space and picks?

This is making less sense to me now.

 

[TBpup]

So you're suggesting we trade Dame/CJ for expiring contracts and basically let them walk for nothing outside of cap space and picks?

This is making less sense to me now.

Didn't suggest that at all. In fact, it specifically reference "assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room."

 

[Tince]

Didn't suggest that at all. In fact, it specifically reference "assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room."

Ok. So it wouldn't be a $50m savings as you wrote? How much do you really think it would be?

Trying to get a picture of how much cap room we would have. What type of player we could bring in for that cap space.

 

[illmatic99]

But we don't have Ant + contract to trade. The 'contract' is only available IF management were to make better use of the salary cap and take advantage of the cap space they would have with Dame (and CJ) gone. That is over $70,000,000 in salaries off the books with Ant's going from $3.9 to say ~$20M. That is a $50M difference with which to take advantage of. Plus the picks, and any other assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room, but not nearly so much for just 2 players....who have shown that together, they don't produce very good team results.

Dafuq. You want to dump dame for picks?

 

[calvin natt]

How so? What would doing the opposite do?

If you say keeping Dame will end up in us not getting to the finals in the next 5 years, I'd probably agree.

If you said trading Dame would get us to the finals in the next 5 years, I'd strongly disagree.

I’ve said repeatedly that I do not see a path to the finals with this roster and keeping Dame. Not enough capital in the other 13 or whatever guys to be able to obtain talent to overtake the teams ahead of them. Let’s say they get Simmons for CJ etc. They would have Dame and Ben and whoever is left. Not enough. And not enough leftovers to go get another guys. I just don’t see it. What I can see is getting enough assets back from Lillard and CJ etc to have a really nice start to a rebuild. Rebuild while the Warriors age.

 

[TBpup]

Ok. So it wouldn't be a $50m savings as you wrote? How much do you really think it would be?

Trying to get a picture of how much cap room we would have. What type of player we could bring in for that cap space.

If you could event get 3 quality players into those slots of the 2 salary amounts totaling $70,000,000, and then add in Ant's $20,000,000, it would seem like we would have a much more balance roster without so much duplicity. It's not that CJ (or certainly Dame) are bad players. But they eat up so much of the cap, it limits what other moves can be made. And for the types of players they are, you can't have multiples of those on your roster. (Neil...talking to you)

John Collins - $25M
Mikal Bridges - $22M
Jeremi Grant - $20M
OG Anunoby - $18M
Jonathan Isaac - $17.4 (if he can ever stay healthy)
Christian Wood - $13.6M
Jae Crowder - $9.7M

Those are all types of players on non-rookie contracts that I'd like to slot into $70,000,000 worth of cap space. And every player (just like those on our roster) can be nit picked. But they would give us more size, length, defense and non are nearly as ball dominant as Dame/CJ. More ball movement, more spread out shot dispersal.....equals a happier team.

 

[TBpup]

Dafuq. You want to dump dame for picks?

Good grief.....another response from a poster who apparently isn't taking the time to read and shoots off a "Dafuq" response. Seriously?

What part of, "Plus the picks, and any other assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room" implies dumping Dame for picks? This is like the 4th time in the last couple days peole are attributing stuff to me that I didn't say, or completely missing something that is obviously right in the post. Some posters I get, but you're better than that.

 

[illmatic99]

Good grief.....another response from a poster who apparently isn't taking the time to read and shoots off a "Dafuq" response. Seriously?

What part of, "Plus the picks, and any other assets coming back....which would of course take up some of that cap room" implies dumping Dame for picks? This is like the 4th time in the last couple days peole are attributing stuff to me that I didn't say, or completely missing something that is obviously right in the post. Some posters I get, but you're better than that.

so you want to dump dame. got it.