I'm convinced Sergio has dirt on Nate

[Wizard Mentor]

Too bad grasping a concept is not the same as performing the task. Of course, Sergio has a better understanding of Nate's defensive schemes. This is his third season playing for Nate. But, when it comes to defensive execution, Sergio still stinks - and always will. He thoroughly understands the concept at this point, but still can't execute worth shit on the defensive end.

Bayless is a rookie. He's still learning the system. He's bound to make mistakes. It's part of learning the game at the NBA level. But, at least he has the athleticism and desire to play good defense. I'll take his hustle and effort over Sergio's conceptual grasp of team defense any day. The more Bayless plays, the more he'll learn and the better he will get.

BNM

I read an interesting article a week or two ago (hoopsworld? not sure where) that said that as opposed to
conventional wisdom where young players need PT, what actually happens is that young players earn PT
during practice.

When Bayless shows during practice that he's comfortable running the point, no doubt Bayless will start. However, it's not surprising that a PG coach gives the pure PG the benefit of the doubt when assigning PT.

(This is another reason we should have made a trade. Clearing up the logjam at PG would have IMPROVED team chemistry. But, perhaps I shouldn't get started on that again....)

 

[B-Roy]

Thank you pinwheel...you hit the nail on the head! Maybe the coaches know more than the " experts " on here. .. and off point a lil is this if you watched Steve Blake play defense last night and still think he is a good defender...oh my!

Blake played good defense yesterday, if you were actually watching. I was pleasantly surprised. He was fighting through screens and challenging shots.

 

[bigbailes]

Blake played good defense yesterday, if you were actually watching. I was pleasantly surprised. He was fighting through screens and challenging shots.

i was at the game and spent a good portion just watching blakes d and wasn't pleased but thats ok because he hasn't been good all year. each of our PG's have their strengths and each has glaring weaknesses, they are what they are for the season.

 

[bigbailes]

Are you watching games in some parallel dimension guy? Bayless is an outstanding finisher! He's athletic enough on defense that when he's in the game, our perimeter defense is not nearly as embarassing, with the opposing PG being able to penetrate at will, or pull up for wide open mid-range jump shots. He's also active in the passing lane and will come up with steals.

he's not a good finisher at this point, what he does is make the amazing (or outstanding) finish but he doesn't finish consistantly.

 

[bigbailes]

i agree nic, he's got 28 games to show the staff what he can do. if he stuggles i'll be the first to admit he should be shown the door. i think some on here are over-zealous in their support/hatred for certain players and it gets a little obnoxious, but that's what a free message board, where no one has to ever own up for their opinions gives you.

 

[B-Roy]

i was at the game and spent a good portion just watching blakes d and wasn't pleased but thats ok because he hasn't been good all year. each of our PG's have their strengths and each has glaring weaknesses, they are what they are for the season.

Well, it was better than his usual defense. I also have a low opinion of Blake's D, but it was nice to see him put effort into trying to stop his man. Bibby is a streaky shooter and got extremely hot.

 

[B-Roy]

he's not a good finisher at this point, what he does is make the amazing (or outstanding) finish but he doesn't finish consistantly.

Yes, he does.

 

[e_blazer]

Man, the team is on a pace to win 9-10 games more than last season, they're sitting in 4th place in the WC, they've won 9 out of their last 12 games despite injuries to Blake and Oden, they convincingly beat a playoff team last night, and we're complaining about a rookie's minutes and Nate's coaching style?

I have no doubt that Bayless will displace Sergio by next year, but for now, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[bigbailes]

Yes, he does.

great re-buttal, you've gone with the popular uh-huh route. you've convinced me.

 

[B-Roy]

great re-buttal, you've gone with the popular uh-huh route. you've convinced me.

All you said is that he doesn't finish consistently. Nik already provided evidence that he does. You lose.

 

[LittleAlex]

Man, the team is on a pace to win 9-10 games more than last season, they're sitting in 4th place in the WC, they've won 9 out of their last 12 games despite injuries to Blake and Oden, they convincingly beat a playoff team last night, and we're complaining about a rookie's minutes and Nate's coaching style?

I have no doubt that Bayless will displace Sergio by next year, but for now, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The Atlanta Hawks would not even be in the playoff race in the West. The team I saw last night was disorganized and apathetic.

I think it was a decent win, but let's not start sucking each other's Popsicles just yet.

A few of those wins we managed with Blake out were due in large part to Bayless's energy off the bench. I can think of at least a couple of games where he took the game over for a stretch of time. The last time Sergio did that was 2 years ago.

 

[barfo]

A few of those wins we managed with Blake out were due in large part to Bayless's energy off the bench. I can think of at least a couple of games where he took the game over for a stretch of time. The last time Sergio did that was 2 years ago.

That's because Nate doesn't approve of that. Sergio has learned that, Bayless will have to.

barfo

 

[bigbailes]

All you said is that he doesn't finish consistently. Nik already provided evidence that he does. You lose.

so a two week stretch is proof enough? not so much, i'd say consistent playing time would help a shooter and effect his long range shots, not finishing at the hoop. got any stats for that nik? b-roy your avitar excludes you from any logical discussion on sergio vs bayless, much like maris' love affair for sergio excludes him.

 

[Tortimer]

he's not a good finisher at this point, what he does is make the amazing (or outstanding) finish but he doesn't finish consistantly.

You way under estimate Bayless. You did in a earlier thread and now again here. Bayless doesn't finish as well as he will when and if given more time and freedom but he does finish second best on the Blazers by far. You must not be watching the games close enough or hate Bayless. Bayless has even learned to look to pass off at the rim if he doesn't think he can finish the play. I think if and when Nate lets Bayless and Roy both attack the rim when the defense would allow it is when we will really be good. Roy and Bayless will put so much pressure on the defense we should have a lot of wide open shots if they do stop both Bayless and Roy.

 

[B-Roy]

so a two week stretch is proof enough? not so much, i'd say consistent playing time would help a shooter and effect his long range shots, not finishing at the hoop. got any stats for that nik? b-roy your avitar excludes you from any logical discussion on sergio vs bayless, much like maris' love affair for sergio excludes him.

Two weeks? It was more than two weeks and it was the ONLY time where Bayless got significant and steady minutes. Much like how Sergio plays better when he gets consistent minutes, so did Bayless when he knew he wasn't going to get pulled for making an error.

By the way, I don't understand your point. Bayless's shooting percentage during the stretch where Blake was injured was near 50%, and most of those shots came inside off of penetration. He rarely hit his jumper, and even when he did, it was only one or two a game, as opposed to 4-5 layups/dunks. He is easily the best finisher next to Roy, I don't see how that's debatable.

Nice attack at the end there though. When Sergio starts playing well, I'll gladly eat my words. But it's been 3 years, and our young Bayless has shown more in his limited play than Sergio has in his entire career.

 

[bigbailes]

You way under estimate Bayless. You did in a earlier thread and now again here. Bayless doesn't finish as well as he will when and if given more time and freedom but he does finish second best on the Blazers by far. You must not be watching the games close enough or hate Bayless. Bayless has even learned to look to pass off at the rim if he doesn't think he can finish the play. I think if and when Nate lets Bayless and Roy both attack the rim when the defense would allow it is when we will really be good. Roy and Bayless will put so much pressure on the defense we should have a lot of wide open shots if they do stop both Bayless and Roy.

i don't hate bayless, i don't hate any of the blazers. maybe i have underestimated him but after watching him last season at UA, in the summer league and from what i've seen this season i don't know if he's the answer at PG. i think much of my fuel is that everyone on here has fallen in love with him and is comparing him to HOF'ers and saying he is untradeable. i've always been a guy that goes against the flow when that flow doesn't seem to warrent it. i think he's a nice player but weather he's the man for portland is yet to be seen.

sometimes i get the feeling that it's a bunch of stat dorks sitting at their computer all day that drive the discussion on here. as such i try to use this and everyother fan board, as more comedic fodder rather than actual debate.

 

[bigbailes]

Two weeks? It was more than two weeks and it was the ONLY time where Bayless got significant and steady minutes. Much like how Sergio plays better when he gets consistent minutes, so did Bayless when he knew he wasn't going to get pulled for making an error.

By the way, I don't understand your point. Bayless's shooting percentage during the stretch where Blake was injured was near 50%, and most of those shots came inside off of penetration. He rarely hit his jumper, and even when he did, it was only one or two a game, as opposed to 4-5 layups/dunks. He is easily the best finisher next to Roy, I don't see how that's debatable.

Nice attack at the end there though. When Sergio starts playing well, I'll gladly eat my words. But it's been 3 years, and our young Bayless has shown more in his limited play than Sergio has in his entire career.

so be like your boy nik and give me stats. you say i can't just have an opinion based on what i've seen but all you are doing is giving your opinion on what you've seen. you've taken a position that you back bayless and sergio has pics on nate, that's the only reason sergio is playing.

i don't know if you remember this, but this is basically the same thing that happened to JJ last season. managment made a decision to play him for better or worse to see what he brought to the table. many couldn't understand why he continually played when he was making horrible plays, and the same, JJ must have pics of nate type of threads were started. maybe the same is happening here and sergio will be gone in the offseason, who knows.

 

[B-Roy]

so be like your boy nik and give me stats. you say i can't just have an opinion based on what i've seen but all you are doing is giving your opinion on what you've seen. you've taken a position that you back bayless and sergio has pics on nate, that's the only reason sergio is playing.

I have not said that, nor as anyone else. The thread starter was being sarcastic because he, like I, and many other posters, believe that Bayless deserves minutes over Sergio because he has played better when given the opportunity. That's not so hard to see now is it?

The stats are there. Nik provided them. If you choose to ignore them, fine by me.

i don't know if you remember this, but this is basically the same thing that happened to JJ last season. managment made a decision to play him for better or worse to see what he brought to the table. many couldn't understand why he continually played when he was making horrible plays, and the same, JJ must have pics of nate type of threads were started. maybe the same is happening here and sergio will be gone in the offseason, who knows.

No, it's not. Jack, with all his faults, was a better player than Sergio, and that's why he got minutes as such. I hated his lack of focus at times, his missed jumpers, unforced turnovers etc., but at the end of the day, he brought hustle, defense, and tenacity that Sergio did not. It's painfully clear now why he played over Sergio.

Could the same be said for Bayless? Maybe he's not as good as his play has suggested? Of course, but we'll never know because Nate continues to play Sergio over Bayless. My opinion is that Nate plays Sergio because he is the "Veteran". Whatever, fine. He certainly doesn't play like a veteran though, and if he keeps playing like he does, I see no other option than trading him or cutting his minutes entirely by the start of the next season. These 28 games are crucial for El Chacho, and I can't see him succeeding based on past evidence. Jarrett Jack was traded at the end of the season. Sergio faces a similar fate.

With that said, I'm still going to advocate for Bayless to play over Sergio.

 

[illmatic99]

Mike Barrett weighs in on the Sergio/JBay debate.

I like Bayless too, but you've got to give Sergio a little more credit. Nate loves Bayless, and has leaned on him at times, especially when Blake was out. But, he is a rookie, who played just one year of college ball, and he has a lot to learn about running the offense. He'd be the first to admit that. He's much more of an attacking point guard, and I love his agressiveness. But, I'd have to say that I think Sergio gets his teammates shots a little better at this point. No one is worried about Bayless' development, and he's right on track. There are very few NBA teams who give rookies the amount of playing time Portland does. In fact, Memphis is the only other team with 4 rookies on the roster. Among the teams battling for the playoffs in the west, no one plays guys as young as Portland's. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think Bayless would be getting more of an opportunity among these teams than he's getting with us. He will see key minutes down the stretch, and I'm sure will produce. If we were really struggling with Sergio in the lineup, I think you'd have a better case. But, here is the team with the youngest playing rotation in the NBA, sitting in fourth place in the Western Conference race. I just don't see a huge reason to put Sergio behind Bayless at this point. Bayless has been working on his perimeter shot, which has been inconsistent to this point. Once he develops that, he won't be as one-dimentional. Sergio has really improved his shot, and plays so well with Rudy. It's hard to break up that tandem. In short, I think Bayless is the real deal, and may very well be a future starter, but there's no reason to rush that.

http://mikebarrettsblog.blogspot.com/#3427062156303975766

 

[chris_in_pdx]

I think I'll take Nate's assesment of who should be playing and who shouldn't over 99% of you blowhards.

 

[Tortimer]

so be like your boy nik and give me stats. you say i can't just have an opinion based on what i've seen but all you are doing is giving your opinion on what you've seen. you've taken a position that you back bayless and sergio has pics on nate, that's the only reason sergio is playing.

i don't know if you remember this, but this is basically the same thing that happened to JJ last season. managment made a decision to play him for better or worse to see what he brought to the table. many couldn't understand why he continually played when he was making horrible plays, and the same, JJ must have pics of nate type of threads were started. maybe the same is happening here and sergio will be gone in the offseason, who knows.

I get just the opposite opinion of Bayless's game. I'm a huge Pac 10 basketball fan and watched almost everyone of Bayless college games, SL and of coarse all the Blazer games Bayless has played and think he is going to be almost a perfect fit along side Roy. He is a better outside shooter then he has shown so far on the Blazers and I think he will end up a very good 3 pt shooter. I'm not sure what the reason why he has struggled from the outside but I think it is maybe more about him working on his pg skills and the Blazer offense and what Nate wants him to do so he can get more PT. I think maybe his shooting is the last thing he works on right now. IMO he has everything we need and I think it was a blessing we lucked into getting him. I didn't even think there was any chance of us getting him. I liked his game in college a lot more then Westbrook or OJ Mayo. Really the only player I would want in this draft ahead of Bayless would have been Rose. I love Rose's game in college and the NBA. I can't say anything else because it is your opinion and it is hard to say which of us is right. I think you will see Bayless is really going to blossom sometime next year on the Blazers or another team if we end up trading him. Bayless IMO is going to be a star in the NBA and it isn't going to take that long if he can just get a chance to develop and get PT.

 

[B-Roy]

Mike Barrett weighs in on the Sergio/JBay debate.



http://mikebarrettsblog.blogspot.com/#3427062156303975766

Yay, MB protecting every Blazer and no criticism to any player. What else is new?

 

[Tortimer]

I think I'll take Nate's assesment of who should be playing and who shouldn't over 99% of you blowhards.

I'm not upset with Nate's decision and understand he reasoning. I'm just saying once Bayless does get the chance he will show all you doubters just how good he is and all the people that says he isn't a PG don't know what the hell they are talking about. Bayless is the real deal and I think Nate knows that. I do wish sometimes he would get some minutes when Sergio does struggle and nobody can say Sergio hasn't struggle in some games.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

I'm not upset with Nate's decision and understand he reasoning. I'm just saying once Bayless does get the chance he will show all you doubters just how good he is and all the people that says he isn't a PG don't know what the hell they are talking about. Bayless is the real deal and I think Nate knows that. I do wish sometimes he would get some minutes when Sergio does struggle and nobody can say Sergio hasn't struggle in some games.

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MCMILNA01

Something tells me that Nate knows what a point guard is supposed to do and can identify who is most capable of playing the position. Bayless is a combo guard who will eventually develop point guard skills, but playing him more than an established NBA point guard in Sergio won't accelerate his development or give him OR Sergio any additional confidence to do the job.

 

[Tortimer]

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MCMILNA01

Something tells me that Nate knows what a point guard is supposed to do and can identify who is most capable of playing the position. Bayless is a combo guard who will eventually develop point guard skills, but playing him more than an established NBA point guard in Sergio won't accelerate his development or give him OR Sergio any additional confidence to do the job.

I didn't say Nate didn't know what he is doing with PG's. In fact did you notice who played most of the 4th qtr's in the last 5-6 games when Blake was injured. Bayless was even playing more total minutes in some of the games that were close and the ones he didn't he was in foul trouble. Of coarse I want Bayless to play over Sergio and I think there is a chance he will before this year is up. For everyone that doesn't think Nate knows how good Bayless is tell me why Bayless was getting a lot of the PG minutes when the game was close in the 4th qtr and didn't go with Rudy and Roy or Sergio and Roy. I'm not believing people are trying to say Sergio is better because Nate is playing him as the main backup. That's not the case. Like I said in another thread: Sergio plays better with Rudy, Sergio has played better this year then last year and Nate thinks he deserves a chance to be the backup until he knows for sure Bayless helps us win more and I think partially it is Sergio and his agent complaining about PT and Nate or KP have wanted to keep people happy. Bayless so far has been a good guy and hasn't caused any problems with not playing and I know it is killing him.

I have always been on Nate's side and think he is a good coach. I do think he has been questionable with how he handles Oden and Bayless but maybe he is doing the right thing. We will have to wait and see but I think these forums are for discussions about what we think is right or wrong with the Blazers and lately I have had questions about Nate that I never did in the last few years.

 

[MARIS61]

I will continue to lose faith in Nate if he keeps Bayless out of the rotation. It is inexcusable.

Talk about an empty threat.

Can't lose what you never had.

The astounding difference in the level of talent-assessment skills between the professionals working for Self-Made Billionaire Paul Allen and "fans" who apparently were neither born with nor have developed such skills convinces me Nate, in particular, is worth every penny Paul pays him.

 

[Nikolokolus]

so a two week stretch is proof enough? not so much, i'd say consistent playing time would help a shooter and effect his long range shots, not finishing at the hoop. got any stats for that nik? b-roy your avitar excludes you from any logical discussion on sergio vs bayless, much like maris' love affair for sergio excludes him.

What the fuck is your beef?

All I took issue with is your assertion that Bayless isn't a finisher and provided you with some evidence that when he's been given the opportunity in extended minutes, he's shown that he can indeed be a very good finisher. I do agree that Sergio as the backup is just fine, he distributes the ball adequately, and has done a better job at hitting 3s, which makes him more than the one-dimensional player he was before, which is critical to this team's success and makes it justifiable to keep him on the floor 15 minutes a game.

 

[bigbailes]

What the fuck is your beef?

All I took issue with is your assertion that Bayless isn't a finisher and provided you with some evidence that when he's been given the opportunity in extended minutes, he's shown that he can indeed be a very good finisher. I do agree that Sergio as the backup is just fine, he distributes the ball adequately, and has done a better job at hitting 3s, which makes him more than the one-dimensional player he was before, which is critical to this team's success and makes it justifiable to keep him on the floor 15 minutes a game.

sorry nic, that wasn't meant as a bash at you, just wondering if you have any numbers for that one. you seem to be one of the guys that has a beat on these stats. i don't usually agree with you but you seem to be one of the better posters on here and didn't mean any ill will by that.

 

[Stevenson]

"I'm convinced Sergio has dirt on Nate"?

That's one of the silliest takes I have ever read on this board.

 

[Nikolokolus]

sorry nic, that wasn't meant as a bash at you, just wondering if you have any numbers for that one. you seem to be one of the guys that has a beat on these stats. i don't usually agree with you but you seem to be one of the better posters on here and didn't mean any ill will by that.

I apoligize, I misconstrued what you were saying as a snide remark ...

As for those kind of stats, I don't believe you'd find any hard and fast statistical test that would show players long range shooting increases with PT, just like there's no hard and fast inferential statistical test showing whether or not players' close range shooting should increase with PT -- at least none that I know of. All we have are descriptive statistics for each player; some players thrive when their minutes go up, others never change their averages when normalized on a per 40 or per 36 basis.

The only point I was trying to make about Jerryd is that he seems to be one of those players whose game has improved when given a bump in minutes ... which is not the same as saying he's ready to be a full time starter, or that he should be the backup.