OT "I'm Dealing With A Few Transgender Issues" (2 Viewers)

[barfo]

How about instead of splitting participants up by preferred gender, or by penis-or-clitoris, just grouping participants by ability instead?
At the school level, have as many leagues as are needed to include everyone who wants to participate. The highest ability league will end up mostly or exclusively boys in most sports at most schools, but there would end up being mixed leagues as well. Which might not be a bad thing.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

That isn't a genitals check though, it's a hernia check.

Right. And determining gender during the hernia check is pretty straight forward. Further, CT scan or other imaging would be another way to verify. As it is also a great way to check for hernias.

 

[Phatguysrule]

How about instead of splitting participants up by preferred gender, or by penis-or-clitoris, just grouping participants by ability instead?
At the school level, have as many leagues as are needed to include everyone who wants to participate. The highest ability league will end up mostly or exclusively boys in most sports at most schools, but there would end up being mixed leagues as well. Which might not be a bad thing.

barfo

Sure, I think that would be great at the school level.
But it will get competitive at some point, and that's when gender will matter.

 

[crandc]

I have had my genitals examined by a doctor when there was a medical reason. That is worlds away from school authorities ordering girls stripped and groped to prove they are "really" female.

 

[Hoopguru]

How about instead of splitting participants up by preferred gender, or by penis-or-clitoris, just grouping participants by ability instead?
At the school level, have as many leagues as are needed to include everyone who wants to participate. The highest ability league will end up mostly or exclusively boys in most sports at most schools, but there would end up being mixed leagues as well. Which might not be a bad thing.

barfo

In elementary & middle school they already have rec leagues and there are girls that play hardball with the boys. However, once they get in 7th/8th grade most the girls switch over to girls softball, not all but most. In HS they would allow IF a girl wanted to play Baseball on the boys team, she would be given an opportunity with many schools to make the team.
I know a case where 2 hs boys wanted to play on the girls varsity softball team and were not allowed too because they couldn't make the boys varsity squad.

I dont have a problem with a tran guy wanting to play in men sports, but women will complain when tran girls want to dominate girls softball. That one I have a bit of an issue with.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I have had my genitals examined by a doctor when there was a medical reason. That is worlds away from school authorities ordering girls stripped and groped to prove they are "really" female.

I have never had symptoms of a hernia. Why am I forced to get checked for a sports hernia every 2 years as a male athlete but everone else is not?

This seems like quite the double standard.

 

[julius]

I have never had symptoms of a hernia. Why am I forced to get checked for a sports hernia every 2 years as a male athlete but everone else is not?

This seems like quite the double standard.

Did you mean why are men more likely to be forced to get checked for a sports hernia vs women?

I would assume it's because it's significantly far more common in men than women (same reason why women are encouraged to have breast exams, and men are not, and men are encouraged to have prostate exams and women are not).

 

[barfo]

Sure, I think that would be great at the school level.
But it will get competitive at some point, and that's when gender will matter.

Then I think you missed the point of my suggestion. My suggestion was to have people who are roughly equal in abilities compete against each other. That removes gender from the equation.

If I have the same athletic ability at, say, rugby, as an 90 year old woman with osteoporosis, then there's no reason she and I shouldn't be on the same rugby team.

barfo

 

[julius]

Then I think you missed the point of my suggestion. My suggestion was to have people who are roughly equal in abilities compete against each other. That removes gender from the equation.

If I have the same athletic ability at, say, rugby, as an 90 year old woman with osteoporosis, then there's no reason she and I shouldn't be on the same rugby team.

barfo

How do you get through doors with an ego that big?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Then I think you missed the point of my suggestion. My suggestion was to have people who are roughly equal in abilities compete against each other. That removes gender from the equation.

If I have the same athletic ability at, say, rugby, as an 90 year old woman with osteoporosis, then there's no reason she and I shouldn't be on the same rugby team.

barfo

At the competitive level gender would be an issue if you are one of the best women competing against men in a lower than top bracket.

So instead of being the best, you're now maybe top 5, and every other woman is pushed lower as well.

I think this should definitely be an option (it is currently an option in most cases), but I think women should be able to have their own division as well. And I think most female competitors want that as well.

 

[barfo]

How do you get through doors with an ego that big?

It's not easy moving it around. Takes planning and structure modification.

 

[barfo]

At the competitive level gender would be an issue if you are one of the best women competing against men in a lower than top bracket.

So instead of being the best, you're now maybe top 5, and every other woman is pushed lower as well.

Yes, now the woman is not the best in a women's division, but 'just' someone on the team in a more competitive division. How is that a problem?

And how are other women 'pushed lower'?

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yes, now the woman is not the best in a women's division, but 'just' someone on the team in a more competitive division. How is that a problem?

And how are other women 'pushed lower'?

barfo

If you would be the 4th or 5th starter in an all women's league, but you have a bunch of men to compete with as well, you likely will not be a starter.

If it's just rec ball with non-competitive people that's fine. But again, I'm talking about competitive sports. I have yet to talk with a woman who plays competitive sports who would be alright with that.

Many women don't even like working out in the same gym as men. They have specific women's only gyms set up for that exact reason. Let alone competing against men in a physical sport, with their hands all over them...

It would just never work. You'll have far fewer women in sports if you eliminate womens only divisions.

 

[Hoopguru]

Then I think you missed the point of my suggestion. My suggestion was to have people who are roughly equal in abilities compete against each other. That removes gender from the equation.

If I have the same athletic ability at, say, rugby, as an 90 year old woman with osteoporosis, then there's no reason she and I shouldn't be on the same rugby team.

barfo

Start a team "Pirates of Osteoporosis" No Fear!

 

[barfo]

If you would be the 4th or 5th starter in an all women's league, but you have a bunch of men to compete with as well, you likely will not be a starter.

If it's just rec ball with non-competitive people that's fine. But again, I'm talking about competitive sports. I have yet to talk with a woman who plays competitive sports who would be alright with that.

Many women don't even like working out in the same gym as men. They have specific women's only gyms set up for that exact reason. Let alone competing against men in a physical sport, with their hands all over them...

It would just never work. You'll have far fewer women in sports if you eliminate womens only divisions.

Integrating baseball would just never work. You'd have far fewer whites in baseball if you eliminate whites-only leagues. They don't want to play with Negroes. Heck, many whites don't even like eating in the same restaurant as the Negro.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Integrating baseball would just never work. You'd have far fewer whites in baseball if you eliminate whites-only leagues. They don't want to play with Negroes. Heck, many whites don't even like eating in the same restaurant as the Negro.

barfo

Not even close to the same thing. That was preventing people from moving up a division. Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort here.

 

[barfo]

Not even close to the same thing. That was preventing people from moving up a division. Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort here.

I was mostly kidding, but it's also the case that "this could never work" is quite often not true at all.

There are definitely problems with my suggestion. But there are problems with the current scheme also. Just depends on which problems you like better.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

I was mostly kidding, but it's also the case that "this could never work" is quite often not true at all.

There are definitely problems with my suggestion. But there are problems with the current scheme also. Just depends on which problems you like better.

barfo

Yeah, I get that. And I'm certainly not ok with the current scheme either. It exposes too many people to abuse.

I think there should be consistent guidelines from the federal government.

Schools shouldn't be tasked with investigating students. There can be a fair system that protects LGBTQIA2S+ from being targeted as well as protects women's sports as we know it.

 

[crandc]

All this debate over who plays what sport where is missing the point. It's not about female athletes. It's a wedge issue to demonize my community.

For years we heard gays, lesbians, trans people serving openly would destroy military readiness. They are serving and US military is still strongest in the world.

We heard for years the awful consequences that would follow marriage equality. Same sex couples have been marrying and only result is people getting married.

Attacking trans people in the guise of defending girls and women is just the latest. Used as basis for book banning, don't say gay laws, firing teachers, prohibiting Pride flags, even closing businesses.

Hard to look at Pete Buttigieg, white, male, Christian, gender conforming, handsome, Ivy league educated, veteran, married, children, successful, and say he's really scary. Bigots need someone else they can use to whip up hate. Trans people fit the bill.

 

[julius]

All this debate over who plays what sport where is missing the point. It's not about female athletes. It's a wedge issue to demonize my community.

For years we heard gays, lesbians, trans people serving openly would destroy military readiness. They are serving and US military is still strongest in the world.

We heard for years the awful consequences that would follow marriage equality. Same sex couples have been marrying and only result is people getting married.

Attacking trans people in the guise of defending girls and women is just the latest. Used as basis for book banning, don't say gay laws, firing teachers, prohibiting Pride flags, even closing businesses.

Hard to look at Pete Buttigieg, white, male, Christian, gender conforming, handsome, Ivy league educated, veteran, married, children, successful, and say he's really scary. Bigots need someone else they can use to whip up hate. Trans people fit the bill.

Pete is also scary to them because he is a ton smarter than they are and can debate circles around them. But you're right, since it's easier to trot out the "he's one of them gheys" argument, they do that.

The transphobic/homophobic shit is no different then racism, imho, in that their arguments are full of so many holes and inconsistencies.

LGBTQ aren't LGBTQ to gain an unfair advantage in sports, or work, they're LGBTQ because that's WHO they are. Any arguments to the contrary are stuck in the 1950's.

 

[Phatguysrule]

All this debate over who plays what sport where is missing the point. It's not about female athletes. It's a wedge issue to demonize my community.

For years we heard gays, lesbians, trans people serving openly would destroy military readiness. They are serving and US military is still strongest in the world.

We heard for years the awful consequences that would follow marriage equality. Same sex couples have been marrying and only result is people getting married.

Attacking trans people in the guise of defending girls and women is just the latest. Used as basis for book banning, don't say gay laws, firing teachers, prohibiting Pride flags, even closing businesses.

Hard to look at Pete Buttigieg, white, male, Christian, gender conforming, handsome, Ivy league educated, veteran, married, children, successful, and say he's really scary. Bigots need someone else they can use to whip up hate. Trans people fit the bill.

It is a wedge issue. Absolutely.

I am trying to propose solutions to remove the wedge without targeting anybody. Which is why it will likely not be not be a popular solution.

Neither side can use the proposal to get their base in a frenzy.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Pete is also scary to them because he is a ton smarter than they are and can debate circles around them. But you're right, since it's easier to trot out the "he's one of them gheys" argument, they do that.

The transphobic/homophobic shit is no different then racism, imho, in that their arguments are full of so many holes and inconsistencies.

LGBTQ aren't LGBTQ to gain an unfair advantage in sports, or work, they're LGBTQ because that's WHO they are. Any arguments to the contrary are stuck in the 1950's.

It doesn't matter what their intent is, IMO. I have no problem with anybody being whatever they want. And I have no problem with anybody competing in sports.

My only problem is with allowing people to make a personal decision to drop into divisions that they don't otherwise qualify to compete in. Regardless of their individual situation or reasoning.

 

[julius]

It doesn't matter what their intent is, IMO. I have no problem with anybody being whatever they want. And I have no problem with anybody competing in sports.

My only problem is with allowing people to make a personal decision to drop into divisions that they don't otherwise qualify to compete in. Regardless of their individual situation or reasoning.

I would bet that the cases of people who do that is a small % of the cases. Like the case in Utah, where they made a stink about like .002% of the athletes or something like that.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I would bet that the cases of people who do that is a small % of the cases. Like the case in Utah, where they made a stink about like .002% of the athletes or something like that.

Agreed. So if we have federal guidance on the procedure and get all student athletes categorized in their proper division with a medical report to back it up (from a physical exam that all students already have to get), it should eliminate many people from being targeted using those .002% as an excuse.

Everybody will be in their legitimate division or playing up. And everyone will have documentation to prove it (and it will be on record with the league, so no investigation would be needed). Everyone will have gone through the same process, and know that it's legit.

 

[YamTastic]

Agreed. So if we have federal guidance on the procedure and get all student athletes categorized in their proper division with a medical report to back it up (from a physical exam that all students already have to get), it should eliminate many people from being targeted using those .002% as an excuse.

Everybody will be in their legitimate division or playing up. And everyone will have documentation to prove it (and it will be on record with the league, so no investigation would be needed). Everyone will have gone through the same process, and know that it's legit.

First of all, this idea is garbage. The second it's put into place, parents will demand testosterone level testing like the Olympic Committee does... I mean, it's only fair, right? This whole "testosterone makes trans girls better at sports than cis girls" naturally ends up here.

Maybe they get their T levels checked every summer? Every semester? A great tool to pressure cis girls out of any sort of gender non-conformity. It'll definitely be leveraged against girls of color way more, too. And of course no boys will be affected. Or worse, what if they are? That'll be fun to put boys in different divisions based on their testosterone levels. I'm sure no bullying will happen because of that. And *definitely* no bullying by girls against other girls for documented, obvious gender non-conformity.

Your plan is so bad, I'm embarrassed for you. I can't believe someone as smart as you thinks this will solve anything.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[Phatguysrule]

First of all, this idea is garbage. The second it's put into place, parents will demand testosterone level testing like the Olympic Committee does... I mean, it's only fair, right? This whole "testosterone makes trans girls better at sports than cis girls" naturally ends up here.

Maybe they get their T levels checked every summer? Every semester? A great tool to pressure cis girls out of any sort of gender non-conformity. It'll definitely be leveraged against girls of color way more, too. And of course no boys will be affected. Or worse, what if they are? That'll be fun to put boys in different divisions based on their testosterone levels. I'm sure no bullying will happen because of that. And *definitely* no bullying by girls against other girls for documented, obvious gender non-conformity.

Your plan is so bad, I'm embarrassed for you. I can't believe someone as smart as you thinks this will solve anything.

Thanks, I appreciate your concern for me.

However, I didn't say anything about T levels. I am concerned with the more athletic knees and hips that boys are born with. And why trans women who have had surgery and drugs are still faster than cis women.

There are simply disadvantages that cis women have that aren't addressed by surgery.

That's why I said allow leagues to make the determination via the bi-annual *scratch that, meant every other year* physical exam, which is already required for athletes middle school and up.

 

[YamTastic]

Thanks, I appreciate your concern for me.

However, I didn't say anything about T levels. I am concerned with the more athletic knees and hips that boys are born with. And why trans women who have had surgery and drugs are still faster than sis women.

There are simply disadvantages that sis women have that aren't addressed by surgery.

That's why I said allow leagues to make the determination via the bi-annual physical exam, which is already required for athletes middle school and up.

I can't believe you think embarrassing every girl twice a year in order to root out those devious trannies is a reasonable idea. I'm disgusted by you.

 

[YamTastic]

If you would be the 4th or 5th starter in an all women's league, but you have a bunch of men to compete with as well, you likely will not be a starter.

A bunch of men? A BUNCH OF MEN?!

This hurts so fucking much.

I tried Sly. I really goddamn fucking tried. Fuck you all. Enjoy yourselves; I'm done with you assholes.

 

[riverman]

I tried Sly. I really goddamn fucking tried. Fuck you all. Enjoy yourselves; I'm done with you assholes.

I don't think that's fair to a lot of people but ....sorry to see you leave the place if that's what you intend to do. You just basically said fuck us all, that's me, crandc, eric, and a lot of people who support your choices. Not sure what triggered that reaction but we're definitely less diversified as a community without you ...hope you reconsider as you have friends here. This homophobic thread should have been locked long ago and you should start a thread about your community and transition journey etc....respect...pass it on!