OT "I'm Dealing With A Few Transgender Issues" (8 Viewers)

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crandc said:
Disagree. Many people have built in advantage. She is no more unfair than a team with a Shaq was.
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No, there is a clear difference.
I'm old enough to remember the East Germans giving their athletes the blue pill that increased their testosterone levels.
Bringing a clearly male athlete that played against other clearly male athletes into the conversation is a smoke screen that will just muddy the water. It's not helping the cause at all. It's actually making it much much worse.
Having compassion for both athletes is understandable but please refrain from the comparison that isn't a comparison at all.
Shaquile ONeil was born a man. Raised as a man, played as a man and played against other men at the highest level of his sport.
This dude was not born a man has not competed against men but has a clear biological advantage over women, however could never compete against men and is not part of a team sport.
Your argument has absolutely no traction whatsoever.
 
I cannot believe I let myself get drawn into this stupid conversation again. There is so much more going on in this Olympics that deserves our attention.
What a fucking waste of time.
 
We just have to disagree.
I see a woman.
East Germans were cheating, she isn't.
 
crandc said:
We just have to disagree.
I see a woman.
East Germans were cheating, she isn't.
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You see a woman but bring up Shaquille O’’Neil?
East Germans were supplementing their athletes with testosterone to levels this athlete has naturally. The correlation is much closer.
I see the minute your argument is lost you no longer tag the person in your conversation and you simply shut down. This is exactly why I said you made the conversation worse and it simply muddied the water.

We as a country and actually a world need to find compassion for this situation and find a way forward but please show that same compassion for the athletes that are being robbed of their competitive spirit and willingness to work to improve. How many young ladies just said I’m done. I don’t want to fight a man?
 
The fact ya'll continue to call this person a man isn't compassionate at all. They were assigned being a female at birth in a country where they don't allow people to change their gender. Do you think they wanted to be born with a syndrome?

Maybe that's the conspiracy! This person before they were born manipulated their birth to have This syndrome so they could obtain a gold medal (and a 9-5 record) . Genius!
 
kjironman1 said:
You see a woman but bring up Shaquille O’’Neil?
East Germans were supplementing their athletes with testosterone to levels this athlete has naturally. The correlation is much closer.
I see the minute your argument is lost you no longer tag the person in your conversation and you simply shut down. This is exactly why I said you made the conversation worse and it simply muddied the water.

We as a country and actually a world need to find compassion for this situation and find a way forward but please show that same compassion for the athletes that are being robbed of their competitive spirit and willingness to work to improve. How many young ladies just said I’m done. I don’t want to fight a man?
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I don't think there is a more fair way to determine if somebody qualifies then assignment at birth. Everything else is just too muddied. This person has always been a female. She has lived her life as a female. She doesn't identify as a male and never has. The doctor's determined she was a female at birth in the most accurate way possible and has never been a concern except when fighting in a Russian run and sponsored tournament after she beat the Russian opponent.

I don't want women to have to be subject to more invasive tests than men to determine if they're eligible. And I don't even see why this a problem since she hasn't been a dominant fighter.

I would be interested in a survey of female athletes. What would they feel is a fair amount of testing?

I think that's what they should do to determine eligibility (if anything more than assignment at birth). If they want to go through more strict testing then let's make that the standard. Have the Olympic contestants determine the level of testing they want to be subjected to.

Let them vote on it every year. Make that the standard that other athletic bodies can point to when determining their standards.

Then nobody else outside the competition has any reason to complain.

Assignment at birth seems to be the most accurate way to do it. However I'm good with whatever standard the athletes choose.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't think there is a more fair way to determine if somebody qualifies then assignment at birth. Everything else is just too muddied. This person has always been a female. She has lived her life as a female. She doesn't identify as a male and never has. The doctor's determined she was a female at birth in the most accurate way possible and has never been a concern except when fighting in a Russian run and sponsored tournament after she beat the Russian opponent.

I don't want women to have to be subject to more invasive tests than men to determine if they're eligible. And I don't even see why this a problem since she hasn't been a dominant fighter.

I would be interested in a survey of female athletes. What would they feel is a fair amount of testing?

I think that's what they should do to determine eligibility (if anything more than assignment at birth). If they want to go through more strict testing then let's make that the standard. Have the Olympic contestants determine the level of testing they want to be subjected to.

Let them vote on it every year. Make that the standard that other athletic bodies can point to when determining their standards.

Then nobody else outside the competition has any reason to complain.

Assignment at birth seems to be the most accurate way to do it. However I'm good with whatever standard the athletes choose.
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And there is the argument that this fighter also fought and lost in 2020. Nobody seemed to have a problem then.
Still there needs to be a precedent set. The testosterone levels are there for all to see.

This is what I'm talking about when I say there needs to be some compassion for the situation. I absolutely do not have the answers here but I know way too many people dealing with this kind of issue. One who is very close to me.
 
Phatguysrule said:
This is not true, IMO.
Hakeem Olajuwon killed Shaq.
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"Clear advantage" doesn't necessarily mean superiority. Shaq had a clear size and strength advantage. That is indisputable. Even comparing to Hakeem who "killed him", Shaq had a clear physical advantage. Hakeem was simply able overcome the physical advantages through his skill and experience.

I have no doubt that your daughters match up against players with clear physical advantages whom they outplay due to their skill.

This boxer has a clear physical strength advantage. That doesn't mean that other boxers won't be able overcome that through superior skill.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
"Clear advantage" doesn't necessarily mean superiority. Shaq had a clear size and strength advantage. That is indisputable. Even comparing to Hakeem who "killed him", Shaq had a clear physical advantage. Hakeem was simply able overcome the physical advantages through his skill and experience.

I have no doubt that your daughters match up against players with clear physical advantages whom they outplay due to their skill.

This boxer has a clear physical strength advantage. That doesn't mean that other boxers won't be able overcome that through superior skill.
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Basketball is not boxing.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
"Clear advantage" doesn't necessarily mean superiority. Shaq had a clear size and strength advantage. That is indisputable. Even comparing to Hakeem who "killed him", Shaq had a clear physical advantage. Hakeem was simply able overcome the physical advantages through his skill and experience.

I have no doubt that your daughters match up against players with clear physical advantages whom they outplay due to their skill.

This boxer has a clear physical strength advantage. That doesn't mean that other boxers won't be able overcome that through superior skill.
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Athletic Men have a clear enough advantage that most sports the skill level doesn't matter Even one comparing moderately athletic men to world-class female athletes. Shaq did not have that kind of advantage.

That is the kind of advantage the rules should be set up to identify and prevent.

I don't believe this boxer has that kind of advantage either.

I think claiming that Shaq's advantage over other players is similar to the advantage men have over women muddy's the water and is harmful to this debate.

It's not the same. It's not even close.

When my daughters play boys their own age who also train they get destroyed. And my daughters are far more skilled than the vast majority of those boys. Far more skilled.


Karsten Braasch was ranked 203 for men.

He beat Serena 6-2
He beat Venus 6-1

These matches were not close. At all.

This boxer is not dominant like this.
 
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crandc said:
Boxing is on weight class, correct? So both women of similar weight.
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I agree that these women are both competing in the same weight class and division as they should be.

However, I feel that it is worth pointing out that when talking about differences between men and women, weight class isn't actually a good indicator of strength or ability. Since the bodies of men and women are so different the vast majority of women would be at a significant disadvantage against a man of the same weight. Women naturally carry more body fat than men. In most athletic competitions that is a hindrance.
 
kjironman1 said:
You see a woman but bring up Shaquille O’’Neil?
East Germans were supplementing their athletes with testosterone to levels this athlete has naturally. The correlation is much closer.
I see the minute your argument is lost you no longer tag the person in your conversation and you simply shut down. This is exactly why I said you made the conversation worse and it simply muddied the water.

We as a country and actually a world need to find compassion for this situation and find a way forward but please show that same compassion for the athletes that are being robbed of their competitive spirit and willingness to work to improve. How many young ladies just said I’m done. I don’t want to fight a man?
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And I gave up basketball because Shaq robbed me of my competitive spirit and willingness to work to improve. How many old guys like me just said I'm done. I don't want to play against a guy 3 times my size and 1/4 my age?

I don't think you are making a good case for drawing the line in any particular place.

barfo
 
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Ok, I'm sorry everyone, I've realized the error of my ways. I hope boys and men continue to invade female sports to the point where no females can play. They need to get back to their rightful position, baking bread, knitting, playing with dolls.

Fuck female sports.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I agree that these women are both competing in the same weight class and division as they should be.

However, I feel that it is worth pointing out that when talking about differences between men and women, weight class isn't actually a good indicator of strength or ability. Since the bodies of men and women are so different the vast majority of women would be at a significant disadvantage against a man of the same weight. Women naturally carry more body fat than men. In most athletic competitions that is a hindrance.
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This point has already been brought up multiple times. A man or woman with male testosterone levels that weighs the same weight as a woman with female testosterone levels is going to be stronger and will have multiple physical advantages.
This part of the discussion really should not be up for debate but again with the same poster here we are?
 
beast crnjo said:
Ok, I'm sorry everyone, I've realized the error of my ways. I hope boys and men continue to invade female sports to the point where no females can play. They need to get back to their rightful position, baking bread, knitting, playing with dolls.

Fuck female sports.
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That is more consistent with your other views, certainly.

barfo
 
barfo said:
And I gave up basketball because Shaq robbed me of my competitive spirit and willingness to work to improve. How many old guys like me just said I'm done. I don't want to play against a guy 3 times my size and 1/4 my age?

I don't think you are making a good case for drawing the line in any particular place.

barfo
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You actually made my point but then pirates have a peg leg and probably wouldn't play basketball very well.
 
kjironman1 said:
This point has already been brought up multiple times. A man or woman with male testosterone levels that weighs the same weight as a woman with female testosterone levels is going to be stronger and will have multiple physical advantages.
This part of the discussion really should not be up for debate but again with the same poster here we are?
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There aren't just two levels of testosterone. There's a large range of values. Where exactly do you want to draw the line?
And, of course, testosterone isn't the only thing you need to worry about. Biology is very complex, and lots of things can give an individual an 'unfair' advantage.

barfo
 
kjironman1 said:
You actually made my point but then pirates have a peg leg and probably wouldn't play basketball very well.
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You try playing on one leg, in rough seas, with a cutlass banging against your leg and parrot shit running down your arm... it ain't easy, mate.

barfo
 
barfo said:
And I gave up basketball because Shaq robbed me of my competitive spirit and willingness to work to improve. How many old guys like me just said I'm done. I don't want to play against a guy 3 times my size and 1/4 my age?

I don't think you are making a good case for drawing the line in any particular place.

barfo
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But that's because you weren't one of the best basketball players in the world. If you were you wouldn't feel that way.

Without protections for women's sports there would be no best women basketball players in the world. No women would make the cut.
 
Phatguysrule said:
But that's because you weren't one of the best basketball players in the world. If you were you wouldn't feel that way.

Without protections for women's sports there would be no best women basketball players in the world. No women would make the cut.
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I personally don't care, just as I don't care there are no 80+ year olds in the NBA.
Heck, I'm not sure if I care if anyone plays sports, maybe all that time and energy and money should be spent on something with more societal value.
But, if the rulemakers want to draw a line and say 'these people can play women's sports, and these people can't', then the rulemakers have to be very specific. And consistent. So far, they haven't been.

barfo
 
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