I'm sick of PDX Residents over AAA Beavers

[Nate Dogg]

I'm starting to get sick of the residents of Portland of where to put our AAA Beavers. We have a major owner who wants to bring a big time market to Portland and everyone is griping about where to relocated the minor league baseball team.
The city of Portland has tried the 49 year old Memorial Coliseum site but people are outraged at this old building being torn down. Then the city tries Lents Park and then the residents are concerned about congestion and noise. Then that idea is shot down. So what sites do we have left? We can't use Portland Meadows by PIR because its still being used. and the Multnomah Greyhound Park at NE 223 Ave in Wood Village, OR is still being used. We allow the OHSU tram to be built with less opposition and press but a minor AAA ballpark creates more of a stur?
Lets just move the AAA Beavers to Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA, at this point because Portland residents can't make up their minds.

 

[barfo]

I'm starting to get sick of the residents of Portland of where to put our AAA Beavers. We have a major owner who wants to bring a big time market to Portland and everyone is griping about where to relocated the minor league baseball team.
The city of Portland has tried the 49 year old Memorial Coliseum site but people are outraged at this old building being torn down. Then the city tries Lents Park and then the residents are concerned about congestion and noise. Then that idea is shot down. So what sites do we have left? We can't use Portland Meadows by PIR because its still being used. and the Multnomah Greyhound Park at NE 223 Ave in Wood Village, OR is still being used. We allow the OHSU tram to be built with less opposition and press but a minor AAA ballpark creates more of a stur?
Lets just move the AAA Beavers to Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA, at this point because Portland residents can't make up their minds.

How about we leave the baseball team in the baseball stadium, and put soccer in Lents, Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA?

barfo

 

[Haakzilla]

How about we leave the baseball team in the baseball stadium, and put soccer in Lents, Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA?

barfo

...this seems to be the most logical idea

 

[Nate Dogg]

How about we leave the baseball team in the baseball stadium, and put soccer in Lents, Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA?

barfo

Because the owner knows that 7,000 + fans will show up for a Timbers game regardless to what day of the week compared to a Beavers game. I bet the Timbers vs MLS Sounders (U.S Open Cup tourney) will draw at least 10k fans on July 1, 2009 at PGE park. Merrit already has seats in place at PGE park for soccer whereas Beavers only draw about 5,200 fans per game (avg.) for baseball for the past 5 years. I have done stats before on this site and the Timbers marketbase is growing and the Beavers fanbase hasn't increased. Merrit knows where the money is at and the Beavers aren't cutting it.

 

[barfo]

Because the owner knows that 7,000 + fans will show up for a Timbers game regardless to what day of the week compared to a Beavers game. I bet the Timbers vs MLS Sounders (U.S Open Cup tourney) will draw at least 10k fans on July 1, 2009 at PGE park. Merrit already has seats in place at PGE park for soccer whereas Beavers only draw about 5,200 fans per game (avg.) for baseball for the past 5 years. I have done stats before on this site and the Timbers marketbase is growing and the Beavers fanbase hasn't increased. Merrit knows where the money is at and the Beavers aren't cutting it.

Some things are more important than money.

If soccer is such a hot draw, they'll be a hot draw somewhere else.

barfo

 

[Nate Dogg]

If soccer is such a hot draw, they'll be a hot draw somewhere else.
barfo

Have you been to a Timbers game? The timbers army fanbase has grown gradually since 2005.
Go to http://www.soccercityusa.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
And see what they talk about. They are dedicated fans. I don't see a forum setup for the AAA Beavers.
Merrit must see $$ and fan support in the current situation with the Timbers. Its obviously going nowhere for the AAA beavers.

 

[barfo]

Have you been to a Timbers game? The timbers army fanbase has grown gradually since 2005.
Go to http://www.soccercityusa.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
And see what they talk about. They are dedicated fans. I don't see a forum setup for the AAA Beavers.
Merrit must see $$ and fan support in the current situation with the Timbers. Its obviously going nowhere for the AAA beavers.

Agreed, the Beavers should go nowhere

I don't dispute the timbers fans are dedicated. Perhaps they are even dedicated enough to drive to Lents.

barfo

 

[Nate Dogg]

Hah. Hah. I see where your mind is locked into. Support AAA baseball. Timbers get a new home!

 

[barfo]

Hah. Hah. I see where your mind is locked into. Support AAA baseball. Timbers get a new home!

Exactly. We have a baseball stadium, it's been working for the past 80 years, why change it?
Soccer comes to town, great! Build a soccer stadium.

barfo

 

[THE HCP]

Portland is a soccer town, NOT baseball. I worked a couple baseball games last week and there couldn't have been more then 500 people at those games. Sad.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I'm not too high on the "build it and they will come" mentality. The Timbers are marginally supported as are the Beavers. I'm a devoted Timbers fan and I've sat thru some crowds of less than 5,000 on nice evenings. There's also a reason MSL failed here once before- a lack of fan support.

As for me, I support the idea of replacing the Memorial Colliseum with a small bowl stadium that will hold around 15,000 initially and be expandable up to 25,000 or so and having the MSL team there as well as U. of Portland soccer, PSU football and HS football to include the state HS playoffs. We can call it the Memorial Colliseum as well. As for drawing another major league team here, I'd focus on hockey as we already have the RG.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

The NASL folded because of teams overspending trying to keep up with the NY Cosmos. The Timbers NASL attendance was well above the league average, just as it is now in the USL1.

PGE is the perfect size for MLS and 2-3 times bigger than what Paulson wants for the AAA Beavers. It's a lot cheaper to refurbish PGE Park for MLS/PSU and build a smaller right-sized baseball stadium than to build a separate soccer stadium.

 

[Paxil]

Bring the Beavers to Hillsboro... I am for that. =) I'd take my fam to some games.

Taking the fam to the Timbers game on the 1st of July too... should be awesome.

I think sometimes we give in to the small majority of loudmouths. You will find this area has people who will protest ANYthing. They just like to protest. It is part of the weird Portland thing. Not saying it is horrible... just that their voice shouldn't be any greater than mine.

 

[SodaPopinski]

How about we leave the baseball team in the baseball stadium, and put soccer in Lents, Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA?

barfo

A) Because it's much cheaper to remodel PGE Park for soccer and to build a brand new AAA baseball stadium than it would be to scale down PGE Park to make it more intimate and suitable for AAA baseball and build a 20,000+ seat stadium in the burbs or anywhere else.

and

B) The blueprint for success in MLS is a centrally-located, downtown stadium. AAA baseball has proven it can and will work as a suburban recreation activity.


I'd have loved for AAA baseball to stay in the central city. I thought the RQ was the perfect location, and then a bunch of architect assholes claimed that a moldy, underused glass and concrete box was somehow a masterpiece that should be given proper respect. And the city got scared.

-Pop

 

[barfo]

A) Because it's much cheaper to remodel PGE Park for soccer and to build a brand new AAA baseball stadium than it would be to scale down PGE Park to make it more intimate and suitable for AAA baseball and build a 20,000+ seat stadium in the burbs or anywhere else.

It doesn't need to be scaled down for baseball. It was designed for AAA baseball.

I'd have loved for AAA baseball to stay in the central city. I thought the RQ was the perfect location, and then a bunch of architect assholes claimed that a moldy, underused glass and concrete box was somehow a masterpiece that should be given proper respect. And the city got scared.

-Pop

Agree with you on that. Saving the MC is absurd.

barfo

 

[SodaPopinski]

It doesn't need to be scaled down for baseball. It was designed for AAA baseball.

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/aaaballparks.htm

If you look at the link above, PGE Park has a higher capacity than any other stadium for AAA baseball. And by most accounts, significantly higher. And if you've ever been to a Beavers game recently, it's glaring how cavernous the stadium feels with all of those empty seats. I agree with the owner of the Beavers that it would be a much better draw if they were able to build a beautiful, scaled-down park with all the amenities.

-Pop

 

[ironcrotch]

Anyone remember when the PPS site or the old Post Office site were the places to build the MLB stadium? Why are those no longer in talks for the AAA stadium, which can then be upgraded WHEN we get MLB and stupid ideas like Lents are drawn up?

http://www.oregonstadiumcampaign.com/stadium_concept.htm

 

[OddEnormous]

Some things are more important than money.

If soccer is such a hot draw, they'll be a hot draw somewhere else.

barfo

This doesn't even make any sense.

Some things are more important than money?

Uh ok. Especially when it's not your money right?


You can't just use that saying whenever you want you know?

 

[OddEnormous]

It doesn't need to be scaled down for baseball. It was designed for AAA baseball.

Yeah in the 20-60's

AAA baseball has downsized all over the country. Totally different animal now.

 

[barfo]

This doesn't even make any sense.

Some things are more important than money?

Uh ok. Especially when it's not your money right?

How is it not my money? Last I looked taxpayers owned the stadium, and I seem to recall paying to renovate it just a few years ago. Building a new stadium will certainly involve some more of my tax dollars.

You can't just use that saying whenever you want you know?

Sure I can. Some things are more important than money. See, I did it again.

barfo

 

[tlongII]

AAA baseball sucks ass.

 

[Nate Dogg]

More potential ideas are brought up in the Oregonian.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pbeavers/index.ssf/2009/06/where_will_the_portland_beaver.html

 

[Rodolfo]

How about we leave the baseball team in the baseball stadium, and put soccer in Lents, Hillsboro, Gresham, or Vancouver WA?

barfo

Put the Beavers over at the Lincoln HS field. I'm pretty sure the bleachers could hold the average attendance.

Soccer is only happening at PGE park. Maybe another city wants the Beavers?

 

[Stepping Razor]

It doesn't need to be scaled down for baseball. It was designed for AAA baseball.

That's actually not true. It wasn't designed for baseball it all, which is a huge part of the problem.

It was designed for football. The architect (famous Portland architect A.E. Doyle) designed the stadium to be a full U-shaped horseshoe, with the open end facing where the MAC club is now. For some reason (I think disputed property ownership) they never finished the stands along the East sideline (now used as baseball outfield), but the other side of the horseshoe (now the first-base side) and the U-curve at the end (third-base side) were completed according to the original plans for a rectangular football stadium. Thus Multnomah/Civic/PGE has great design and sightlines for football (and soccer), especially if they ever actually built the stands along the other sideline to finish the horseshoe. (Note: this is exactly what Paulson is proposing that they do to make it a MLS stadium.)

In the meantime, it is a TERRIBLE baseball stadium. When Vaughn Street was condemned in the 1950s, the Beavers needed someplace to play and they shoehorned a big square-shaped baseball field into a space that works much better as a rectangle. The dimensions and sightlines for baseball are just all wrong. Making matters worse, the stadium is 2 or 3 times too big for AAA crowds, which (a) kills the atmosphere by leaving oceans of empty seats all over the place and (b) is massively expensive to maintain, which kills minor league baseball's financial viability. (There is a reason why four different versions of Portland minor league teams (if I'm counting correctly -- Beavers x2, Mavericks, Rockies) have split town over the past 30 years. And the reason is that Civic Stadium is a failed venue for minor league baseball.) Baseball in Civic Stadium is a miserable experience, which is why pretty much no one goes to Beavers games there.

Long story short: Civic stadium is a fantastic football/soccer stadium and a horrible baseball stadium. That's why it would be a real shame if Portland manages to blow this chance to fix the mess and get an MLS team that I'm pretty sure, based on the success of the minor-league Timbers, would be a huge success.

Whether the city should take a gamble that a smaller field designed specifically for baseball would actually revive some level of fan interest in the Beavers is a different question... I'm not really sure. I suspect that Portland might actually be better off letting the Beavers leave for an actual minor-league city that is more excited to have them. But either way, I don't see them having any long-term viability at Civic. Just like the last two owners of (previous versions of) the Beavers, Paulson will eventually realize that the Beavs in Civic Stadium don't add up and head for greener pastures.

And it would be a real travesty if, by the time that happens, we've chased away what could have been a great tenant in the MLS Timbers. (With MLS expanding to Vancouver and Seattle, there is little chance that the current minor-league Timbers can survive if the MLS bid fails.) Then we'd be left with a big multi-purpose stadium, no baseball team, and no soccer team. (Which would take us right back to the situation from the 1930s-50s, when there was no team to play there so it was used primarily for... dog racing!)

SR

 

[barfo]

That's actually not true. It wasn't designed for baseball it all, which is a huge part of the problem.

It was designed for football. The architect (famous Portland architect A.E. Doyle) designed the stadium to be a full U-shaped horseshoe, with the open end facing where the MAC club is now. For some reason (I think disputed property ownership) they never finished the stands along the East sideline (now used as baseball outfield), but the other side of the horseshoe (now the first-base side) and the U-curve at the end (third-base side) were completed according to the original plans for a rectangular football stadium. Thus Multnomah/Civic/PGE has great design and sightlines for football (and soccer), especially if they ever actually built the stands along the other sideline to finish the horseshoe. (Note: this is exactly what Paulson is proposing that they do to make it a MLS stadium.)

In the meantime, it is a TERRIBLE baseball stadium. When Vaughn Street was condemned in the 1950s, the Beavers needed someplace to play and they shoehorned a big square-shaped baseball field into a space that works much better as a rectangle. The dimensions and sightlines for baseball are just all wrong. Making matters worse, the stadium is 2 or 3 times too big for AAA crowds, which (a) kills the atmosphere by leaving oceans of empty seats all over the place and (b) is massively expensive to maintain, which kills minor league baseball's financial viability. (There is a reason why four different versions of Portland minor league teams (if I'm counting correctly -- Beavers x2, Mavericks, Rockies) have split town over the past 30 years. And the reason is that Civic Stadium is a failed venue for minor league baseball.) Baseball in Civic Stadium is a miserable experience, which is why pretty much no one goes to Beavers games there.

Long story short: Civic stadium is a fantastic football/soccer stadium and a horrible baseball stadium. That's why it would be a real shame if Portland manages to blow this chance to fix the mess and get an MLS team that I'm pretty sure, based on the success of the minor-league Timbers, would be a huge success.

Whether the city should take a gamble that a smaller field designed specifically for baseball would actually revive some level of fan interest in the Beavers is a different question... I'm not really sure. I suspect that Portland might actually be better off letting the Beavers leave for an actual minor-league city that is more excited to have them. But either way, I don't see them having any long-term viability at Civic. Just like the last two owners of (previous versions of) the Beavers, Paulson will eventually realize that the Beavs in Civic Stadium don't add up and head for greener pastures.

And it would be a real travesty if, by the time that happens, we've chased away what could have been a great tenant in the MLS Timbers. (With MLS expanding to Vancouver and Seattle, there is little chance that the current minor-league Timbers can survive if the MLS bid fails.) Then we'd be left with a big multi-purpose stadium, no baseball team, and no soccer team. (Which would take us right back to the situation from the 1930s-50s, when there was no team to play there so it was used primarily for... dog racing!)

SR

Ok, so I'm going to reverse course here and admit I was wrong.

On the other hand, dog racing... that sounds pretty good.

barfo

 

[Nate Dogg]

The stadium is "too" big for AAA baseball.
What about the land around Portland International Raceway. Theres tons of land by Lowes in that area. I bet there are lots of warehouses that lost their businesses. A ballpark should just go there.

 

[hasoos]

Move it to wherever the hell you want. Just don't expect my taxes to be jacked up to pay for it.

 

[SodaPopinski]

Move it to wherever the hell you want. Just don't expect my taxes to be jacked up to pay for it.

Ah yes, the rallying cry of the uninformed.

Please show me a quote or article or anything that talks about raising taxes to pay for anything related to remodeling PGE Park and relocating the Beavers.

I'm so sick and tired of all the ignorant "NOT IN MY BACKYARD" Portlanders. It's no wonder we're creeping up to 15% unemployment here, with so many unimaginative, run-screaming-from-progress people in this town.

-Pop

 

[hasoos]

Ah yes, the rallying cry of the uninformed.

Please show me a quote or article or anything that talks about raising taxes to pay for anything related to remodeling PGE Park and relocating the Beavers.

I'm so sick and tired of all the ignorant "NOT IN MY BACKYARD" Portlanders. It's no wonder we're creeping up to 15% unemployment here, with so many unimaginative, run-screaming-from-progress people in this town.

-Pop

No not uninformed. Just consider it a precondition. Go wherever the hell you want. Even in my neighborhood. Just don't expect me to pay for it.

 

[Spud147]

Saving the MC is absurd.

barfo

Blasphemer! That's akin to tearing down Boston Garden or Yankee Stadium!