Politics IMPEACHMENT 2020: THE BIG SNOOZE

[CupWizier]

True. There will always be a stain. But, Trump will take his acquital as a victory over it and likely will prentend it never happened, just like the all the cases he has won wirh his crooked laywers. Karma will eventually bite him in the ass. It always does. Hopefully, that will be when he loses in November.

Oh no doubt, but he does that no matter what the outcome is and his base believes everything he says. That base isn't enough to get him re-elected as he needs many more and this sham might be the thing that pushes the undecided away from trump.

 

[e_blazer]

lol. the House still has subpoenas that have been issued from about 9 months ago that are still in the system. We have an AG that thinks he is trumps personal lawyer and refuses to do anything to get the witnesses to appear or documents turned over. More obstruction.

LOL? I don't know how long it would have taken to get the issue resolved in court. It would have been in the Dems' best interests if it never got resolved before the election. That way they could have painted Trump as the slimy bastard he is, trying to avoid legitimate inquiries needed to resolve the impeachment issue, throughout the entire primary season. Taking it to the Senate and hoping that they'd let there be witnesses called and letting the Repubs' sweep it all away in short order was stupid.

 

[barfo]

LOL? I don't know how long it would have taken to get the issue resolved in court. It would have been in the Dems' best interests if it never got resolved before the election. That way they could have painted Trump as the slimy bastard he is, trying to avoid legitimate inquiries needed to resolve the impeachment issue, throughout the entire primary season. Taking it to the Senate and hoping that they'd let there be witnesses called and letting the Repubs' sweep it all away in short order was stupid.

You seem to be under the impression it went in a way the Democrats didn't expect. Not sure that's true. It might be, I don't have any inside information, but it might not be. I'm guessing that they know the politics involved better than either you or I.

Here's the alternative. Getting them to refuse to look at evidence and acquit blindly early in the year means that everything new that comes out in the next 10 months can be hung around the necks of both Trump and all the Republican senators.

barfo

 

[e_blazer]

You seem to be under the impression it went in a way the Democrats didn't expect. Not sure that's true. It might be, I don't have any inside information, but it might not be. I'm guessing that they know the politics involved better than either you or I.

Here's the alternative. Getting them to refuse to look at evidence and acquit blindly early in the year means that everything new that comes out in the next 10 months can be hung around the necks of both Trump and all the Republican senators.

barfo

Could be, but I still think denying him the acquittal by leaving the issue hanging in the House would’ve been a smarter play. But, as you point out, what do I know?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

New John Bolton bombshell as Republicans get the votes to block witnesses: His book says Donald Trump ordered him to help Giuliani meet Ukraine's Zelensky - which president denies but Rudy DOESN'T and calls Bolton a 'scumbag'

• The latest revelation come as the Senate starts debate on whether to call witnesses
• Surprise statement by Sen. Lamar Alexander reveals the votes aren't there for witnesses
• Trump told Bolton to assist his pressure campaign on Ukraine, former security advisor writes
• He says White House counsel Pat Cipollone was in the room at the time
• Cipollone has been leading the defense that Trump carried out no impeachable offenses
• Senators arrived in the Capitol Friday for four hours of debate on whether to call witnesses
• There remains a possibility of a 50-50 tie – where in theory Chief Justice John Roberts might be able to determine the outcome
• Giuliani said Bolton is 'making some of it up' and called him a 'scumbag'
• Trump denied giving Bolton the directive
• Drama came as Sen. Lisa Murkowski said she is a 'no' on calling witnesses

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...utes-Senate-starts-voting-call-witnesses.html

 

[CupWizier]

LOL? I don't know how long it would have taken to get the issue resolved in court. It would have been in the Dems' best interests if it never got resolved before the election. That way they could have painted Trump as the slimy bastard he is, trying to avoid legitimate inquiries needed to resolve the impeachment issue, throughout the entire primary season. Taking it to the Senate and hoping that they'd let there be witnesses called and letting the Repubs' sweep it all away in short order was stupid.

We see it differently obviously and I'm pretty sure the dems knew the situation going in. They also knew it would likely be difficult to get the senate to accept witnesses which would expose the republican senate and trump for their obvious obstruction. If they drug it out hoping to get subpoenas that could backfire on the dems and people thinking they were dragging this out way to long. Like I said, some subpoenas that were issued 9 months ago have barely moved so how long do you wait? I'm pretty sure the dems wanted to expose trump regardless before the election. We will see in less than a year when we have an election. I'm not sure the senate republicans played their cards right as it could easily backfire on them for not having a proper trial. If they allowed witnesses and then voted to acquit, then they have something to brag about. As it is, they look like shysters. The court of public opinion is a very powerful tool and one could say that the republicans played right into the hands of the dems in that respect.

 

[e_blazer]

We see it differently obviously and I'm pretty sure the dems knew the situation going in. They also knew it would likely be difficult to get the senate to accept witnesses which would expose the republican senate and trump for their obvious obstruction. If they drug it out hoping to get subpoenas that could backfire on the dems and people thinking they were dragging this out way to long. Like I said, some subpoenas that were issued 9 months ago have barely moved so how long do you wait? I'm pretty sure the dems wanted to expose trump regardless before the election. We will see in less than a year when we have an election. I'm not sure the senate republicans played their cards right as it could easily backfire on them for not having a proper trial. If they allowed witnesses and then voted to acquit, then they have something to brag about. As it is, they look like shysters. The court of public opinion is a very powerful tool and one could say that the republicans played right into the hands of the dems in that respect.

Both sides are going to spin this whole debacle to their best advantage. Trump’s base will accept his spin without question, while the Dem base will view it as proof of how evil Trump and his “deplorables” are. So it’s mainly a matter of how the folks in the middle will view it. Time will tell, but I really wish that the Dem candidates were stronger and were making their pitch mainly to the middle instead of to the left.

 

[barfo]

Both sides are going to spin this whole debacle to their best advantage. Trump’s base will accept his spin without question, while the Dem base will view it as proof of how evil Trump and his “deplorables” are. So it’s mainly a matter of how the folks in the middle will view it. Time will tell, but I really wish that the Dem candidates were stronger

Joe Biden hereby challenges you to a pushup contest!

and were making their pitch mainly to the middle instead of to the left.

It's the primary. Things will become more centrist this summer, I feel safe in predicting.

barfo

 

[yankeesince59]

New John Bolton bombshell as Republicans get the votes to block witnesses: His book says Donald Trump ordered him to help Giuliani meet Ukraine's Zelensky - which president denies but Rudy DOESN'T and calls Bolton a 'scumbag'

• The latest revelation come as the Senate starts debate on whether to call witnesses
• Surprise statement by Sen. Lamar Alexander reveals the votes aren't there for witnesses
• Trump told Bolton to assist his pressure campaign on Ukraine, former security advisor writes
• He says White House counsel Pat Cipollone was in the room at the time
• Cipollone has been leading the defense that Trump carried out no impeachable offenses
• Senators arrived in the Capitol Friday for four hours of debate on whether to call witnesses
• There remains a possibility of a 50-50 tie – where in theory Chief Justice John Roberts might be able to determine the outcome
• Giuliani said Bolton is 'making some of it up' and called him a 'scumbag'
• Trump denied giving Bolton the directive
• Drama came as Sen. Lisa Murkowski said she is a 'no' on calling witnesses

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...utes-Senate-starts-voting-call-witnesses.html

I want equal credit, damnit !

Even more parts of Bolton's book are surfacing...Pat Cipollone who is Trump's White House Council and part of Trump's defense team was present at meeting where Trump was discussing Ukraine scheme...he's not only trying to conceal Trump's knowledge but is also trying to conceal his own knowledge.

Also, Bolton claims that Trump directed him to help with Ukraine scheme in EARLY MAY...can't make this shit up.

 

[CupWizier]

Both sides are going to spin this whole debacle to their best advantage. Trump’s base will accept his spin without question, while the Dem base will view it as proof of how evil Trump and his “deplorables” are. So it’s mainly a matter of how the folks in the middle will view it. Time will tell, but I really wish that the Dem candidates were stronger and were making their pitch mainly to the middle instead of to the left.

of course both sides are going to try and spin it. I just happen to think the dems have the better spin than the republicans. They shouldn't have fought the witness thing for the trial as I think that will turn a lot of people off and as polls show, 75% of the people say they would like to see witnesses in the trial. Those aren't all dems and a very large voting group that the republicans said "fuck you" to. My gut says the dems secretly preferred no witnesses from the republicans so that they can use that against them in November. More and more info will be coming out before the election and I would assume, much of it won't be good for trump as Bolton and Parnas continue leaking info.

 

[Chris Craig]

If our justice system was like this in regular trials with jurors stating publicly they are not impartial and have already come to a conclusion before the trial starts...wow

 

[e_blazer]

If our justice system was like this in regular trials with jurors stating publicly they are not impartial and have already come to a conclusion before the trial starts...wow

Nobody in the know ever said impeachment was a judicial process. It’s politics pure and simple.

 

[Chris Craig]

Nobody in the know ever said impeachment was a judicial process. It’s politics pure and simple.

It is supposed to be a judicial process. The republicans shat on it

 

[e_blazer]

It is supposed to be a judicial process. The republicans shat on it

No it isn’t. The Constitution could have made it a judicial process by having a trial before the Supreme Court. Instead, the founders made it a political process by having the Senate hold the trial and decide the case.

 

[yankeesince59]

If our justice system was like this in regular trials with jurors stating publicly they are not impartial and have already come to a conclusion before the trial starts...wow

Ha, they'd essentially be doing away with the "jury selection" process....but we'd still get those damn notices that we've been chosen for jury duty.

 

[stampedehero]

And the Democrats knew what the outcome would be before they started the whole nonsense. If they had been smarter, IMO, they'd have called Trump's bluff and taken him to court to enforce subpoenas to get the witnesses they want. Why on earth would you want to rush to a conclusion in the Senate that results in Trump's acquittal and let's him waive that around during his reelection campaign? Much better to have had the proceedings in the House extend throughout the spring and made hay of Trump trying to dodge legitimate testimony from witnesses needed to prove your case.

The funny aspect is that these people are all attorneys and know every alley in the path to a credible circumstance.. No wonder it's a FUBAR.

 

[yankeesince59]

Big fricking deal. That can happen any time the opposite party controls the House.

Yeah, it's possible but I don't think it's gonna be some sort of perpetual thing. Trump is far from the norm and we've never had a POTUS so disgusting as he.

 

[Chris Craig]

Ha, they'd essentially be doing away with the "jury selection" process....but we'd still get those damn notices that we've been chosen for jury duty.

So for now on every person selected for jury duty should just pubicly state they are not impartial and have made up their minds before the trial starts. The senate can do it, why can't everyone else? Why should we, as citizens take seriously the best interest of justice when those we hold at the highest standard refuse to do so. Why should we be obligated and not them. They too took an oath, "(to)do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God."

If they refuse to uphold their oath...why should we uphold ours?

 

[e_blazer]

Yeah, it's possible but I don't think it's gonna be some sort of perpetual thing. Trump is far from the norm and we've never had a POTUS so disgusting as he.

I really hope that's the case, but this did nothing to bring both parties closer together. There's nothing but anger and bitterness on both sides over this whole process.

 

[oldfisherman]

Both sides are going to spin this whole debacle to their best advantage. Trump’s base will accept his spin without question, while the Dem base will view it as proof of how evil Trump and his “deplorables” are. So it’s mainly a matter of how the folks in the middle will view it. Time will tell, but I really wish that the Dem candidates were stronger and were making their pitch mainly to the middle instead of to the left.

This.
I consider myself in the middle, and have known how evil Trump is. But..

I had no idea how much unhealthy hatred could come out of the dems in their quest for power. The extreme hatred has blinded them on so many levels and issues. They have no clue how much damage they have done to themselves, while trying to hurt others.

Trump maybe evil, but the dem party is a complete joke at this time. The dems has self destructed.

 

[andalusian]

Trump maybe evil, but the dem party is a complete joke at this time. The dems has self destructed.

Well, the answer to that will be in the election. You might be right, you might be wrong. My logic says that exposing the GOP has done themselves a whole lot more damage than the democrats, but who knows at this point? The fact that the GOP yells "no deficit", increases the deficit and still gets elected over and over again has me wondering what is happening.

At the end of the day, if the GOP and Trump are elected again - it is time to stop pointing fingers at the politicians...

 

[barfo]

I had no idea how much unhealthy hatred could come out of the dems in their quest for power.

You know that if Trump were removed from office, Mike Pence would be president, right?

barfo

 

[Chris Craig]

Elizabeth Warren trolled Judge Roberts, posing a question, he had to read allowed, about how this trial will make hurt his and the supreme courts credibility, in presiding over a trial where no evidence or witnesses are allowed. The look on his face after reading it is priceless.


“At a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith in government, does the fact that the chief justice is presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican senators have thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy of the chief justice, the Supreme Court and the Constitution?”

 

[Hoopguru]

This.
I consider myself in the middle, and have known how evil Trump is. But..

I had no idea how much unhealthy hatred could come out of the dems in their quest for power. The extreme hatred has blinded them on so many levels and issues. They have no clue how much damage they have done to themselves, while trying to hurt others.

Trump maybe evil, but the dem party is a complete joke at this time. The dems has self destructed.

And if they go further to the left with socialism and wanting larger gov and more taxes, they will reelect Trump.
he is in office because several mid western states would accept Hillary Clinton has President. And they would not of elected Bernie Sanders either. The other candidate from Maryland had a better shot a beating Trump, imo.

 

[CupWizier]

I really hope that's the case, but this did nothing to bring both parties closer together. There's nothing but anger and bitterness on both sides over this whole process.

It's going to take a president with great leadership and some cleansing of congress before this country is close to being more unified. The clown in the oval office will never bring the country together as he doesn't care and it's not in his DNA. Hopefully the cleansing begins in November.

 

[CupWizier]

This.
I consider myself in the middle, and have known how evil Trump is. But..

I had no idea how much unhealthy hatred could come out of the dems in their quest for power. The extreme hatred has blinded them on so many levels and issues. They have no clue how much damage they have done to themselves, while trying to hurt others.

Trump maybe evil, but the dem party is a complete joke at this time. The dems has self destructed.

I disagree as i think thinks reflects badly on the republicans more than the dems for not even attempting to have a real trial. They could have saved some face by allowing some witnesses as that's what 75% of the people wanted and that's a large part of the voting population they snubbed their nose at. We will see come November. trump already thinks he can do whatever he wants and this just opens the door for him to push the limits even further, especially if were to somehow get reelected.

 

[e_blazer]

I disagree as i think thinks reflects badly on the republicans more than the dems for not even attempting to have a real trial. They could have saved some face by allowing some witnesses as that's what 75% of the people wanted and that's a large part of the voting population they snubbed their nose at. We will see come November. trump already thinks he can do whatever he wants and this just opens the door for him to push the limits even further, especially if were to somehow get reelected.

That’s all we’ll and good, but it’s totally at odds with the Dems’ position during the Clinton impeachment trial. From Politico:

“The Senate may dismiss articles of impeachment without holding a full trial or taking new evidence. Put another way, the Constitution does not impose on the Senate the duty to hold a trial,” Biden wrote at the time.

The Delaware Democrat added later: “In a number of previous impeachment trials, the Senate has reached the judgment that its constitutional role as a sole trier of impeachments does not require it to take new evidence or hear live witness testimony.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...20/01/30/joe-biden-impeachment-witness-109730

Not too surprisingly, it all depends on which party has control of the Senate.

 

[CupWizier]

That’s all we’ll and good, but it’s totally at odds with the Dems’ position during the Clinton impeachment trial. From Politico:

The Clinton trial over 20 years ago. Different people many changes and different ideals than back then. Were there not witnesses called? Did it not take the appearance of a real trial? Was every vote pretty much a direct party line vote. Essentially it sounds like what you are is that every murder trial should be the same. It was well known what the outcome was going to be as the pubs were very open about it. I was thinking they would at least try and camoflauge thir actions. I'm a registered independent and often agreed with some republican ideals, but this is not the same party i grew up with and with a president like trump it has made it even much worse.

 

[e_blazer]

The Clinton trial over 20 years ago. Different people many changes and different ideals than back then. Were there not witnesses called? Did it not take the appearance of a real trial? Was every vote pretty much a direct party line vote. Essentially it sounds like what you are is that every murder trial should be the same. It was well known what the outcome was going to be as the pubs were very open about it. I was thinking they would at least try and camoflauge thir actions. I'm a registered independent and often agreed with some republican ideals, but this is not the same party i grew up with and with a president like trump it has made it even much worse.

I don’t think there were any live witnesses called. There was video of depositions including ones by Clinton and Lewinsky. I don’t think it looked much like a real trial. A few Republicans crossed over to vote for acquittal. I don’t think there was as much partisan crap or a true willingness to kick him out of office over lying about a BJ. Embarrassment was enough.

I’m not a Republican either I haven’t been able to stomach the party since the Tea Party days.

 

[Minstrel]

You know that if Trump were removed from office, Mike Pence would be president, right?

barfo

Another miscalculation by the Dems. All this effort and they wouldn't even get the Presidency if they won? How did they not realize that?