Is CJ Top 5?

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
riverman said:
I didn't mean they were at all alike....I meant that they were max contract guys who accepted a bench role....impact player...CJ is more Manu Ginobli or young Jason Terry than Iggy...I just think he has the most value in that role and Crabbe gives us more defense on the perimeter...also think it gets Crabbe involved in the offense early and I think Crabbe's best games have always been with the starters
Click to expand...

Iggy isn't, and has never been a max contract guy. He actually took less money when he left DEN to join GSW.

And, he didn't "accept" coming off the bench until he was 31 years old. He wasn't in the prime of his career, like C.J. His first year in GSW he started every game he played in.

Manu is a better comparison, but again he's never been a max contract guy and didn't become a 6th man until he turned 30. He's been doing it for so long, I think people forget he was a starter early in his career. He also started 79 games at the age of 33, and that was the last time he averaged over 12.9 ppg. We need a lot more than that from C.J.

Anything that diminishes the role of our second best player is a mistake in my opinion. When they were coming off the bench, nether Iggy nor Manu were the second best player on their team. It can sometimes make sense to have your 3rd or 4th best player coming off the bench, but not your second best.

BNM
 
riverman said:
Your minutes have nothing to do with starting or coming off the bench...Noah started all last season and played some of the fewest minutes on the team..my logic is better first half defense period....so maybe you don't dig a hole and your best players CAN rest at the end of a game....I never said CJ would buy into it at all...he had a great game today no matter what....he's had a real streaky start as well
Click to expand...
You do realize it's a lot easier to start someone and play them 12 minutes than it is to bench them and play them 36 minutes? Where exactly would CJ get his rest? He shouldn't be palying for over 12 straight minutes or his play will really fall off due to fatigue. How do you get that done while bringing him off the bench and still playing him 35 minutes per game?
 
rotary111 said:
Tough sell to CJ , but Crabbe would be better in the starting lineup overall. IMO. CJ would still get his and maybe more coming off the bench. Despite today's game stats.
Click to expand...

How would Crabbe be better in the starting lineup overall? Since Crabbe isn't a great ballhandler, what would keep teams from simply trapping Dame and grinding our offense to a screeching halt?

Crabbe is a spot up 3 and D guy and the D is questionable. He can't create for himself, or others. That worked fine when we had pre-injury Wes, because Batum was the secondary ball handler/distributor. We dont have that luxury with Harkless startiing at the 3. We'd have a starting lineup with only ONE player capable of creating his own shot. Crabbe can't do it. Harklesss can't do it. Aminu can't do it and Plumlee can't do it. Opposing defnses would love that. They'd simply clamp down on Dame and we'd be fucked.

BNM
 
Crabbe should be playing whenever one of Dame and CJ isn't on the floor. Staying him would keep that the same way as would starting CJ. So what's the difference, other than slower starts and CJ playing more consecutive minutes this zapping his energy?
 
Boob-No-More said:
Anything that diminishes the role of our second best player is a mistake
Click to expand...
See that's where I view it differently and this is the usual point of argument...I don't see Manu as a player that accepted a diminished role or Jason Terry when he was young, etc....I think it's a big role but I'm on the outside looking in..I get that. I'm sure no expert in minute distribution but Crabbe is now in a diminished role and CJ can get his at the end of qtrs...or play the start of qtrs. in the second half....like I said..it's not a popular view but it sticks with me
 
The more I think about it, the more I think starting Crabbe would be a disaster. He is assisted on 83.3% of his made 2-point FGs and 100% of his made 3-pointers. That is the definition of a guy who can't create his own shot.

Put him in the starting lineup and our offense at the start of games would be 100% dependent on Damian Lillard to create for himself and others. That's WAY too easy to defend. We'd start every game in the hole with Dame worn out from trying to completely carry the offense.

BNM
 
riverman said:
See that's where I view it differently and this is the usual point of argument...I don't see Manu as a player that accepted a diminished role or Jason Terry when he was young, etc....I think it's a big role but I'm on the outside looking in..I get that. I'm sure no expert in minute distribution but Crabbe is now in a diminished role and CJ can get his at the end of qtrs...or play the start of qtrs. in the second half....like I said..it's not a popular view but it sticks with me
Click to expand...

So, if you start Crabbe, what keeps other teams from simply trapping Dame and shutting down our offense? Crabbe is not a ball handler and is nearly 100% dependent on others to create shots for him.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
How would Crabbe be better in the starting lineup overall? Since Crabbe isn't a great ballhandler, what would keep teams from simply trapping Dame and grinding our offense to a screeching halt?

Crabbe is a spot up 3 and D guy and the D is questionable. He can't create for himself, or others. That worked fine when we had pre-injury Wes, because Batum was the secondary ball handler/distributor. We dont have that luxury with Harkless startiing at the 3. We'd have a starting lineup with only ONE player capable of creating his own shot. Crabbe can't do it. Harklesss can't do it. Aminu can't do it and Plumlee can't do it. Opposing defenses would love that. They'd simply clamp down on Dame and we'd be fucked.

BNM
Click to expand...
I feel like I'm repeating myself....Plumlee gets more assists than CJ early in games doesn't he? We'll never see Crabbe's offense playing with CJ because he'll never touch the ball....Crabbe gets some touches....defenses will treat him just like any two guard who can score.
 
riverman said:
See that's where I view it differently and this is the usual point of argument...I don't see Manu as a player that accepted a diminished role or Jason Terry when he was young, etc....I think it's a big role but I'm on the outside looking in..I get that. I'm sure no expert in minute distribution but Crabbe is now in a diminished role and CJ can get his at the end of qtrs...or play the start of qtrs. in the second half....like I said..it's not a popular view but it sticks with me
Click to expand...

And again, Jason Terry is another example of a guy who did not start coming of the bench until after he turned 30. Not a single example you have given is a young guy, in his mid-20s, just entering the prime of his career.

Terry started in ATL and was a starter his first 3 seasons in DAL. He started 80 games in 2006-07 when DAL won 67 games. It wasn't until Terry's 4th season in DAL, at the age of 30, that he started coming off the bench, after they added a second 1st ballot Hall of Famer to their starting line up. We don't have that luxury. C.J. is clearly our second best player.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
So, if you start Crabbe, what keeps other teams from simply trapping Dame and shutting down our offense? Crabbe is not a ball handler and is nearly 100% dependent on others to create shots for him.

BNM
Click to expand...
I think I see more value in Crabbe's skillset this season than you do...I think he plays better with Mason and Dame than with CJ and Turner
 
Boob-No-More said:
And again, Jason Terry is another example of a guy who did not start coming of the bench until after he turned 30. Not a single example you have given is a young guy, in his mid-20s, just entering the prime of his career.

Terry started in ATL and was a starter his first 3 seasons in DAL. He started 80 games in 2006-07 when DAL won 67 games. It wasn't until Terry's 4th season in DAL, at the age of 30, that he started coming off the bench, after they added a second 1st ballot Hall of Famer to their starting line up. We don't have that luxury. C.J. is clearly our second best player.

BNM
Click to expand...
It's fine....Kevin McHale was 6 man of the year a few times...I'm not concerned with all that..the simplest form of my wish for CJ to buy into a 6 man role is that I think it helps the team....we need a sparkplug on offense and Crabbe needs a jumpstart too...to make a better team...not an allstar ballot..and I think I've said about 6 times that I know nobody else agrees ...I get that.
 
riverman said:
I feel like I'm repeating myself....Plumlee gets more assists than CJ early in games doesn't he? We'll never see Crabbe's offense playing with CJ because he'll never touch the ball....Crabbe gets some touches....defenses will treat him just like any two guard who can score.
Click to expand...

Sure, Plumlee gets some assists out of our half court sets, but he's not going to keep other teams from doubling Dame and trapping him before we can even get into our half court sets.

It's not about teams leaving Crabbe wide open to double Dame. It's about teams leaving Aminu or Harkless to trap Dame and Crabbe won't be able to do a damn thing to help with the ball handling duties.

If you start Crabbe, it gives teams the green light to trap Dame from the opening tip off. That's why Dame and C.J. work togther. You can't double them both. Try to double one, and the other brings the ball up the court and initiates the offense. And there is more to iniating the offense than getting assists. It's about beating the other team's full court pressure and making the first pass that sets Stotts' flow offense in motion. C.J. can do that. Crabbe can't. So, you leave Dame on an island and are 100% dependent on him to get our team into their half court sets. Way too easy to just trap him the secnnd he crosses midcourt and shut everything down before we even get started.

Allen Crabbe is a spot up shooter. You can't leave him open at the 3-point line, but he will never, ever demand a double team and he can't bring the ball up the court against full court ppressure and initiate our offense. He dosn't have those skills.

BNM
 
riverman said:
It's fine....Kevin McHale was 6 man of the year a few times...I'm not concerned with all that..the simplest form of my wish for CJ to buy into a 6 man role is that I think it helps the team....we need a sparkplug on offense and Crabbe needs a jumpstart too...to make a better team...not an allstar ballot..and I think I've said about 6 times that I know nobody else agrees ...I get that.
Click to expand...

Your entitled to your opinion. This isn't a popularity contest, but you still haven't answered the most basic question, and my biggest objection to Crabbe starting:

If you start Crabbe, what would keep other teams from simply trapping Dame and shutting down our offense before it even gets started?

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
How would Crabbe be better in the starting lineup overall? Since Crabbe isn't a great ballhandler, what would keep teams from simply trapping Dame and grinding our offense to a screeching halt?

Crabbe is a spot up 3 and D guy and the D is questionable. He can't create for himself, or others. That worked fine when we had pre-injury Wes, because Batum was the secondary ball handler/distributor. We dont have that luxury with Harkless startiing at the 3. We'd have a starting lineup with only ONE player capable of creating his own shot. Crabbe can't do it. Harklesss can't do it. Aminu can't do it and Plumlee can't do it. Opposing defnses would love that. They'd simply clamp down on Dame and we'd be fucked.

BNM
Click to expand...

I understand where your coming from. Your not the only one on here that feels that way.

How have teams done trapping Dame so far? Not well. He's beating everyone off the dribble, or pulling up from halfcourt.
Is that because of CJ? Because CJ stands outside and waits to see if Dame is going to shoot or pass? Both guys are spending time on the court without the other. I don't see either one getting constantly double teamed as your suggesting would be so easy without the other on the floor.
Crabbe is a much better defender than CJ.....right? His contract came from in part to his defense. Don't you think? He also showed very well during clutch moments last year. right? Or am I way off?
I think your selling Crabbe's play making ability a little short. I don't think he's dead in the water if there's a defender on him. They are averaging about the same assists. So yes he can make plays for others. He can move without the ball and is a team first player. Maybe to a fault.

Are the other 3 guys watching Dame and CJ too much because their so ball dominant? Something I've been seeing more and more.
 
Boob-No-More said:
Your entitled to your opinion. This isn't a popularity contest, but you still haven't answered the most basic question, and my biggest objection to Crabbe starting:

If you start Crabbe, what would keep other teams from simply trapping Dame and shutting down our offense before it even gets started?

BNM
Click to expand...

BNM I hear what you're saying, and I'm not necessarily in favor of starting crabbe over CJ, but why didn't we have the problem you described when CJ and Crabbe started together when dame was out? That was probably the best that crabbe ever played during any stretch, and one of th reasons why I think he will be a good starter..... for someone.
 
Natebishop3 said:
BNM I hear what you're saying, and I'm not necessarily in favor of starting crabbe over CJ, but why didn't we have the problem you described when CJ and Crabbe started together when dame was out? That was probably the best that crabbe ever played during any stretch, and one of th reasons why I think he will be a good starter..... for someone.
Click to expand...

Small sample size, and yes Crabbe's raw numbers were up during the 8 games he started, but all of his shooting percentages and advanced stats were down.

The Blazers were 4-4 in the 8 games he started. We beat DEN twice and SAC. We also had that weird 29-point win over CLE when they were trying to get their coach fired. Our four losses were by an average margin of -14.8 points.

Hardly a significant sample size and hardly a ringing endorsement that Crabbe should be starting.

BNM
 
riverman said:
He had a great game.....I think he'd own 6man of the year if he'd buy into it like Iguodala did in GS...not putting him as high as some because of two way play which he's not that accomplished at yet
Click to expand...
Give up on that. He's a top flight starting shooting guard.
 
rotary111 said:
I understand where your coming from. Your not the only one on here that feels that way.

How have teams done trapping Dame so far? Not well. He's beating everyone off the dribble, or pulling up from halfcourt.
Is that because of CJ? Because CJ stands outside and waits to see if Dame is going to shoot or pass? Both guys are spending time on the court without the other. I don't see either one getting constantly double teamed as your suggesting would be so easy without the other on the floor.
Click to expand...

In the past certain teams have been successful at trapping him. Less so with CJ next to him compared to Wes. Some teams like Phoenix 2-3 year ago did it all game long. Others like the clippers wait until the 4th. Once the playoffs start and coaches have time to prepare for your weaknesses.....you will see it more. It was a problem last year as well, which is why they got ET. Against some teams you need 2 ball handlers, others three. Regular season against some bad teams.....maybe just one.

That said a starting lineup of Dame, Crabbe, and ET might work. But I don't think that makes the 2nd unit any better.
 
The question is less about who starts as it is about who comes off the bench first and for who. Want to play Crabbe next to Dame more? Sub him in for CJ at the 6 minute point of each half. Want Harkless to play next to CJ more? Sub him out at the same time as CJ, and bring him back at around the same point. It's simple. The first six minutes of each half don't make a difference in who plays with who. Substitution patterns do.

However, if CJ plays 36 minutes, he only gets 12 minutes of rest. If thats during the 6 minutes that the starting unit plays at the start of each half, then he ends up playing 18 straight minutes to end each half. Not a good idea. Also, Lillard goes off in the middle or end of games. Hardly does he ever go off to start games, as he likes to get a feel first. If CJ isn't in to start, then the team will rely solely on Dame to produce all the offense from the very start, which isn't a good idea when Dame likes to settle into games. He wouldn't be able to, which would probably lead to some missed shots that would carry on throughout the night. If Lillard can relax his way into a hot streak then that's ideal. Hardly ever is it forced.
 
Boob-No-More said:
They're calling him a PG and using his as one. Eric Gordon is starting at SG and playing over 32 MPG. If Harden isn't their PG, who us?

BNM
Click to expand...
What's Avery Bradley now that he's playing with Thomas? If he's a SG, then he's in my Top 5, and probably the only SG I'd trade CJ for (maaaaybe Butler...but apparently he's not a SG anymore?).
 
Boob-No-More said:
Your entitled to your opinion. This isn't a popularity contest, but you still haven't answered the most basic question, and my biggest objection to Crabbe starting:

If you start Crabbe, what would keep other teams from simply trapping Dame and shutting down our offense before it even gets started?

BNM
Click to expand...
I think I mentioned it before but I think Crabbe is at his best with the starting unit....and I think we under utilize him this season....he's a way better wing defender than either of our guards and I think his shot and handles are improved....he's just been the odd man out all season....it's hard to bring it up after CJ ties a career high scoring but previous game CJ shot 20% from deep and turned the ball over....the ball tends to stick with CJ which is great for a 6 man...as you say.....it's just an opinion. I've also said multiple times that I don't believe this will ever happen or CJ would be happy with it.....I would like to give it a shot
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

THE HCP
CJ on Rome
Replies
13
Views
863
jlprk
jlprk
THE HCP
CJ on Rome
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
jlprk
jlprk
Taylor Danforth
CJ McCollum Show
Replies
13
Views
2K
rasheedfan2005
rasheedfan2005
wizenheimer
Simons & CJ
Replies
17
Views
955
blazerkor
blazerkor
F
CJ taking it to another level
3 4 5
Replies
137
Views
6K
e_blazer
e_blazer

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top