Is CJ Top 5?

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KingAlbertoJrSpeed said:
I think CJ can make the All Star team, taking Klay's spot from last year.
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I love some of CJ's game but sorry.....to me and from every sample size I've seen...Klay is a way better 2 way player than CJ....I'd swap them in a heartbeat..CJ himself said he's not at Klay's level yet defensively and he's not....great shooter when he's hot though...been streaky mostly so far this season
 
I can't tell if you guys are purposely putting in the wrong homophones.







I really wanted to joke and say "homonyms" just to be a smart ass.
 
He's top 5 on our team.
;) (sorry if someone already stated this, I admittedly didn't read all you trolls posts) :):)
 
blue32 said:
He's top 5 on our team.
;) (sorry if someone already stated this, I admittedly didn't read all you trolls posts) :):)
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The first response to this entire thread basically stated this...

So, basically, you read nothing.
 
riverman said:
I think I mentioned it before but I think Crabbe is at his best with the starting unit....and I think we under utilize him this season....he's a way better wing defender than either of our guards and I think his shot and handles are improved....he's just been the odd man out all season....it's hard to bring it up after CJ ties a career high scoring but previous game CJ shot 20% from deep and turned the ball over....the ball tends to stick with CJ which is great for a 6 man...as you say.....it's just an opinion. I've also said multiple times that I don't believe this will ever happen or CJ would be happy with it.....I would like to give it a shot
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I keep hearing that Crabbe is a way better wing defender than C.J., but I have yet to see any evidence, either with my eye or with stats, that this is true. I think he was labeled a 3 and D guy when he came into the league and people just assume that means he's good at defense.

I know it's hard to measure defense using stats, but last season, both regular season and playoffs, Crabbe and C.J. had the exact same DRtg. So far, this season, C.J.'s is better.

Because of his length, Crabbe is better at guarding SFs than C.J., but when it comes to guarding SGs, the largest data set available (last year's opponent production at 82games.com) shows that C.J. is actually better than Crabbe at defending SGs. And, keep in mind, most of C.J's minutes at SG came against other starters, where Crabbe's minutes at SG came against other bench players.

Last season, when playing SG, C.J. scored 27.9 PTS/48 while holding his opponent to 19.9 PTS/48 . That's a difference of +8.0 PTS/48.

While playing SG last season Crabbe scored 21.9 PTS/48 while giving up 22.2 PTS/48, a difference of -0.3 PTS/48.

Crabbe was much better at guarding SFs, where he only gave up 17.4 PTS/48. And that matches the eye test. Crabbe, because of his length, can effectively guard SFs, but he does not have the lateral quickness to guard a lot of the smaller, quicker SGs. I was disappointed to see how many times Crabbe was beaten off the dribble in the first couple games this season. I though it looked like he was being lazy after getting his big contract. In retrospect, I think it may be the case that he's just much better suited to guarding SFs than SGs.

As far as his improved handle goes, he has added the ability to dribble once, or twice, before launching a shot. That's a useful skill, but it's not even close to the same thing as bringing the ball up the court against full court pressure and initiating the offense.

In terms of his assists, Crabbe gets almost all of his assists within Stotts' flow offense. He is a spot up shooter stationed on the perimeter. He does a good job of recognizing when he is covered and a teammate if more open for a shot. He's very good at whipping the ball around the perimeter and finding that open teammate, but that's not the same thing as collapsing the defense and kicking out to an open shooter. Like Plumlee. Crabbe gets his assists within the flow of the offense. He does not create opportunities for others, but he recognizes them when they are there. Again, that's a skill, but not the kind of skill that will do anything to help Dame when other teams trap him because we don't have any other good ball handlers on the court with him.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Because of his length, Crabbe is better at guarding SFs than C.J., but when it comes to guarding SGs, the largest data set available (last year's opponent production at 82games.com) shows that C.J. is actually better than Crabbe at defending SGs.

BNM
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I agree with this. Sure there are a few SG's that CJ struggles with, but those are players that everyone struggles with...... regardless of their size. Crabbe is not as quick as CJ so I am sure there are matchup's where CJ is actually the better choice. But if Crabbe (or ET for that matter) is needed for bigger guards, then Terry can make that switch. Even against GS this year Klay did not abuse CJ, so there was no reason to make that move. I think Terry can just wait and see how the game is going.
 
Boob-No-More said:
I keep hearing that Crabbe is a way better wing defender than C.J., but I have yet to see any evidence, either with my eye or with stats, that this is true. I think he was labeled a 3 and D guy when he came into the league and people just assume that means he's good at defense.

I know it's hard to measure defense using stats, but last season, both regular season and playoffs, Crabbe and C.J. had the exact same DRtg. So far, this season, C.J.'s is better.

Because of his length, Crabbe is better at guarding SFs than C.J., but when it comes to guarding SGs, the largest data set available (last year's opponent production at 82games.com) shows that C.J. is actually better than Crabbe at defending SGs. And, keep in mind, most of C.J's minutes at SG came against other starters, where Crabbe's minutes at SG came against other bench players.

Last season, when playing SG, C.J. scored 27.9 PTS/48 while holding his opponent to 19.9 PTS/48 . That's a difference of +8.0 PTS/48.

While playing SG last season Crabbe scored 21.9 PTS/48 while giving up 22.2 PTS/48, a difference of -0.3 PTS/48.

Crabbe was much better at guarding SFs, where he only gave up 17.4 PTS/48. And that matches the eye test. Crabbe, because of his length, can effectively guard SFs, but he does not have the lateral quickness to guard a lot of the smaller, quicker SGs. I was disappointed to see how many times Crabbe was beaten off the dribble in the first couple games this season. I though it looked like he was being lazy after getting his big contract. In retrospect, I think it may be the case that he's just much better suited to guarding SFs than SGs.

As far as his improved handle goes, he has added the ability to dribble once, or twice, before launching a shot. That's a useful skill, but it's not even close to the same thing as bringing the ball up the court against full court pressure and initiating the offense.

In terms of his assists, Crabbe gets almost all of his assists within Stotts' flow offense. He is a spot up shooter stationed on the perimeter. He does a good job of recognizing when he is covered and a teammate if more open for a shot. He's very good at whipping the ball around the perimeter and finding that open teammate, but that's not the same thing as collapsing the defense and kicking out to an open shooter. Like Plumlee. Crabbe gets his assists within the flow of the offense. He does not create opportunities for others, but he recognizes them when they are there. Again, that's a skill, but not the kind of skill that will do anything to help Dame when other teams trap him because we don't have any other good ball handlers on the court with him.

BNM
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I understand this but like I said.....you sort of have Crabbe defined...I don't think we've seen close to his best yet ...how can you really compare how a guy brings the ball up the court when in reality....he never does...my wish is to try it out....not a popular view but it's an unknown until you try...my term underutilizing Crabbe is sort of the point...I'm intrigued by what we haven't seen....we know what CJ does now
 
riverman said:
I understand this but like I said.....you sort of have Crabbe defined...I don't think we've seen close to his best yet ...how can you really compare how a guy brings the ball up the court when in reality....he never does...my wish is to try it out....not a popular view but it's an unknown until you try...my term underutilizing Crabbe is sort of the point...I'm intrigued by what we haven't seen....we know what CJ does now
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Yes and what CJ does now is incredible. Not sure we could hope for more (or even the same) if we moved him from his comfort.

This is like throwing away a wife who is a very solid 8 to go for your side chick who is currently 7 but you feel could maybe, just maybe be a 9 in due time.

Actually I just wanted to throw out a bad analogy. I know you are a strong family man and this would never be in your frame of mind.
 
KeepOnRollin said:
Yes and what CJ does now is incredible. Not sure we could hope for more
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This is where I started the conversation.....it's how we start games that is...well...not so incredible at times...it's not benching CJ that I'd see....it's just starting the game and coming out of half time setting the tone with more length at the guard...won't happen but I find it interesting to think about.....somehow it sort of turned into a CJ is amazing and Crabbe is meh subject..all good.
 
KeepOnRollin said:
Yes and what CJ does now is incredible. Not sure we could hope for more (or even the same) if we moved him from his comfort.

This is like throwing away a wife who is a very solid 8 to go for your side chick who is currently 7 but you feel could maybe, just maybe be a 9 in due time.

Actually I just wanted to throw out a bad analogy. I know you are a strong family man and this would never be in your frame of mind.
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CJ is an 8 in terms of scoring.... but is he an 8 as a shooting guard in the full spectrum of that position? I'm not so sure.

Klay Thompson is an 8. He's a very good scorer (historically) and a very good defender.

CJ seems like a classic scoring combo guard to me. He's Jason Terry, or Monta Ellis. It's nice to have that kind of scoring on your team, but he's not a defender, and it seems to me we're just looking at the most recent version of Curry/Monta. There's a reason why Golden State went away from that pairing. Curry is a sieve, and I actually think Dame might be a better defender than Steph. He seems stronger physically. Curry is a waif. I think a team can hide one player on defense, the Suns did it with Nash, but when both of your guards are sub-par defenders, it creates a pretty big problem on defense.
 
riverman said:
I understand this but like I said.....you sort of have Crabbe defined...I don't think we've seen close to his best yet ...how can you really compare how a guy brings the ball up the court when in reality....he never does...my wish is to try it out....not a popular view but it's an unknown until you try...my term underutilizing Crabbe is sort of the point...I'm intrigued by what we haven't seen....we know what CJ does now
Click to expand...

There is a reason we haven't tried Crabbe as a ball handler bringing the ball up the court against full court pressure and initiating the offense. He lacks the basic skills to do it. We never tried Wes Matthews in that role either, for the exact same reason. Just watch the way C.J. handles the ball sometime and compare that to Crabbe. If you don't see any difference, you may want to get your eyes checked.

Not trying to be any ass, but Crabbe is now in his fourth season, same as C.J. and until this year, he couldn't even be trusted to take one dribble before shooting. and even with his improved handle, he's still assisted on 83.3% of his made 2-pointers and 100% of his made 3-pointers. He can't use his handle to create shots for himself. How is he going to use it to bring the ball up the court against full court pressure and create for others?

Crabbe is best utilized as a spot up shooter. That's where his talent is. Trying to make him a secondary ball handler so other teams can't trap Dame is not a good match for Crabbe's skill set.

BNM
 
Natebishop3 said:
CJ is an 8 in terms of scoring.... but is he an 8 as a shooting guard in the full spectrum of that position? I'm not so sure.

Klay Thompson is an 8. He's a very good scorer (historically) and a very good defender.

CJ seems like a classic scoring combo guard to me. He's Jason Terry, or Monta Ellis. It's nice to have that kind of scoring on your team, but he's not a defender, and it seems to me we're just looking at the most recent version of Curry/Monta. There's a reason why Golden State went away from that pairing. Curry is a sieve, and I actually think Dame might be a better defender than Steph. He seems stronger physically. Curry is a waif. I think a team can hide one player on defense, the Suns did it with Nash, but when both of your guards are sub-par defenders, it creates a pretty big problem on defense.
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I think we all see what we want to see at times until we step back and reevalute. Some still think CJ is a bad defender because that is what he was in the past. I see him improving and I would say he is even better than average. So while not Klay level of course he is no bad defender that perhaps others still think he is.
 
riverman said:
This is where I started the conversation.....it's how we start games that is...well...not so incredible at times...it's not benching CJ that I'd see....it's just starting the game and coming out of half time setting the tone with more length at the guard...won't happen but I find it interesting to think about.....somehow it sort of turned into a CJ is amazing and Crabbe is meh subject..all good.
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I think our last 5 or 6 starts have all been good. The first few were shaky but starting with GS we started out well and then suffered once CJ went out.......
I could be wrong, but that is how I remember it.
 
Natebishop3 said:
CJ is an 8 in terms of scoring.... but is he an 8 as a shooting guard in the full spectrum of that position? I'm not so sure.

Klay Thompson is an 8. He's a very good scorer (historically) and a very good defender.

CJ seems like a classic scoring combo guard to me. He's Jason Terry, or Monta Ellis. It's nice to have that kind of scoring on your team, but he's not a defender, and it seems to me we're just looking at the most recent version of Curry/Monta. There's a reason why Golden State went away from that pairing. Curry is a sieve, and I actually think Dame might be a better defender than Steph. He seems stronger physically. Curry is a waif. I think a team can hide one player on defense, the Suns did it with Nash, but when both of your guards are sub-par defenders, it creates a pretty big problem on defense.
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The biggest change that took GSW from 1st round fodder to champions was not trading Monta Ellis, it was replacing Mark Jackson as coach. After trading Ellis and moving Klay into the starting SG position, under Jackson, GSW was a nice little 51-win, first round exit team. Decent, but not one single person considered them a title contender. Jackson was trying to use Curry as a traditional PG. It was Kerr's decision to play Curry off the ball more, with Green and Livingston as primary ball handlers, that allowed Curry to break out and GSW to make the leap from 51-wins and a 1st round exit to 68 wins and a championship.

Could Kerr have done the same with Ellis starting next to Curry? Who knows, but Jackson already had the Splash Bros, he just didn't know how to use them. He was holding Curry back more than Monta Ellis did.

BNM
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
I mean, I get all the abbreviations, if you're going to use them. But just the misuse or improper use of words...... that's a crime.
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Your is often thought of as an abbreviation to You'Re. Lot less typing and tryign to find that damned... ' when you dont know how to type can suck. Lol

Your okay with this now right?
 
Boob-No-More said:
The biggest change that took GSW from 1st round fodder to champions was not trading Monta Ellis, it was replacing Mark Jackson as coach. After trading Ellis and moving Klay into the starting SG position, under Jackson, GSW was a nice little 51-win, first round exit team. Decent, but not one single person considered them a title contender. Jackson was trying to use Curry as a traditional PG. It was Kerr's decision to play Curry off the ball more, with Green and Livingston as primary ball handlers, that allowed Curry to break out and GSW to make the leap from 51-wins and a 1st round exit to 68 wins and a championship.

Could Kerr have done the same with Ellis starting next to Curry? Who knows, but Jackson already had the Splash Bros, he just didn't know how to use them. He was holding Curry back more than Monta Ellis did.

BNM
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So what's the equivalent move for our team? Probably acquiring Draymond and Livingston :lol:
 
KeepOnRollin said:
I think we all see what we want to see at times until we step back and reevalute. Some still think CJ is a bad defender because that is what he was in the past. I see him improving and I would say he is even better than average. So while not Klay level of course he is no bad defender that perhaps others still think he is.
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Yep, I think C.J. is better defensively than people give him credit for. I can't think of a single time he's been abused defensively by a starting SG this season. Sure Joe Johnson killed us in the low post in the 3rd quarter of the opening night win over UTA, but I seem to recall Johnson was playing SF and kept ending up with Dame on him under the basket after a switch.

Redick didn't kill us in the LAC game, like he has in the past. Will Barton didn't kill us in the DEN game. Devin Booker didn't kill us in the PHO game (but has been killing everyone else since - he's scored 38 ad 39 in his last two games). Wes was horrible against us in the DAL game, but he's been horrible a lot lately and Tony Allen didn't kill us in the MEM game, but he's not a great offensive player - and apparently not a great defensive player anymore after the way C.J. abuses him.

I wish 82games had some data online for this season, so we could get an udea how C.J.'s defense has improved. Even last year while he wasn't a defensive stopper, he outscored his opponents by 8.0 PTS/48. I look for that number to be even better this season.

BNM
 
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