Is Collins the missing ingredient?

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KSF-ERIC

KSF-ERIC

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We were 8-3 when he played last season and 28-40 when he didn't. Could there be something to that? DJJ can't score well enough to be the starter. Dame/CJ/RoCo/Collins/Nurk is a better lineup. In my opinion.
 
Please correct my spelling of ingredient
 
KSF-ERIC said:
We were 8-3 when he played last season and 28-40 when he didn't. Could there be something to that? DJJ can't score well enough to be the starter. Dame/CJ/RoCo/Collins/Nurk is a better lineup. In my opinion.
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No.
 
A role player is not the missing piece.

This missing piece is a two way, 6'7"+ all-star player, Nurk getting his crap together and being our 3rd best player, and CJ being a very good 4th option.
 
Actually Zach fits well as the role player that bust ass while playing. Plus he very good defender on ball and help defense. There missing rim protection that's he does very well. To me there missing Zach just the energy he brings to this team. But it don't matter as long we have offense and defense like we do and Zach along not bail this crap out. Yes Zach drop a ball here there but have seen Nurk lately and Kanter have been trouble hanging on the ball this season. You talk about his fouls Nurk fouls a lot also and Kanter well he like matodor out there and Covington and picks up quite a bite of fouls too. Zach does a lot little things that's so far there missing this year.
 
Every minute Zach plays instead of Kanter or Melo is a massive bonus for our defense. Which, by the way, is currently 28th in the league.

I can't wait for him to return. Or for us to throw Giles out there more, who is also a vastly better defender.

If it were me, I'd run the starters normal minutes and bring only Trent and Giles off the bench. Hood if he's healthy.
 
Awesome.
So now Collins is never going to return to full health....
 
Tince said:
A role player is not the missing piece.

This missing piece is a two way, 6'7"+ all-star player, Nurk getting his crap together and being our 3rd best player, and CJ being a very good 4th option.
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sorry but i call bs on that.
Buck williams was a role player and changed the team. Just one example.
Many times a team like us just needs that right role playing glue guy.
Haslem for miami.
There are lots of examples where a role player took a team over the top.
Sure a star might also but which is easier to fond and get?

i think Collins, if he isnt now jinxed, is exactly this type in my opinion.
 
mook said:
Every minute Zach plays instead of Kanter or Melo is a massive bonus for our defense. Which, by the way, is currently 28th in the league.

I can't wait for him to return. Or for us to throw Giles out there more, who is also a vastly better defender.

If it were me, I'd run the starters normal minutes and bring only Trent and Giles off the bench. Hood if he's healthy.
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agree with everything but Giles. He looked so lost on rotation last night.
 
kjironman1 said:
Giles got abused last night. Unplayable for anything more than a couple minutes at best.
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He didn't look great....or maybe it was the team that didn't look great.

Regardless, he was out there for 4 minutes. Melo gets abused for 27 minutes. You know exactly what you are getting with Melo. Melo is 36 and Giles is 22.

Maybe, just maybe, we should try using the same leash on Giles as we use on Melo for a game or two before we pass judgment.
 
I'm not saying Giles is the answer. All I know is that Melo isn't. And the list of bigs who can play at PF (until Zach comes back) is Covington and Melo and Giles. Covington can't play all 48, so that leaves us with Melo or Giles for now.
 
When is Zach due back anyway? Is it a month or two games or what?
 
I hope he's not the answer, because I worry he may never be healthy for extended periods of time.
 
Orion Bailey said:
sorry but i call bs on that.
Buck williams was a role player and changed the team. Just one example.
Many times a team like us just needs that right role playing glue guy.
Haslem for miami.
There are lots of examples where a role player took a team over the top.
Sure a star might also but which is easier to fond and get?

i think Collins, if he isnt now jinxed, is exactly this type in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Buck Williams was a great role player, but he was on a team with an All-NBA player in Drexler. Clyde also had two multi-time all stars around him in Terry Porter and Kevin Duckworth.

The examples of a role player, putting a team with one all star over the top is going to be limited. Certainly far less that a team with 2-3 all star level players reaching the finals.

I'm not saying Collins can't be on a team that wins the finals. I'm saying he's not going to be THE difference maker. If we have Dame, plus 2 all-stars (like Clyde did), I could believe that Collins would be effective as our Buck Williams.
 
that "the Blazers were 8-3 with Zach last season" is one of dumbest-most-meaningless-often-repeated stats around here

besides that painfully obvious anomaly, on the team Zach ranked:

* 12th in PER
* 11th in TS%
* 18th in FT rate
* 8th in rebound rate
* 9th in assist rate
* 16th in turnover rate
* 14th in winshares
* 11th in winshares/48
* 10th in offensive box plus/minus
* 15th in defensive box plus/minus
* 11th in box plus/minus

now, before anybody yells "sample-size", the sample of the assertion in the OP was 11 games. That's how Zach did in those 11 games. It's the full sample

I'd say it's pretty obvious that the Blazers went 8-3 in spite of Zach, not because of him
 
Tince said:
Buck Williams was a great role player, but he was on a team with an All-NBA player in Drexler. Clyde also had two multi-time all stars around him in Terry Porter and Kevin Duckworth.

I'm not saying Collins can't be on a team that wins the finals. I'm saying he's not going to be THE difference maker. If we have Dame, plus 2 all-stars (like Clyde did), I could believe that Collins would be effective as our Buck Williams.
Click to expand...

last thing first: no way will Zach ever have anything close to the impact Buck did

Buck was a lot more than just a role player. He was an all-NBA defender who transformed the Blazer defense from mediocre to top-5; and transformed an average rebounding team to the best in the league. He also changed the tone of the Blazers...they became one of the most physical teams in the league after Buck arrived

his impact was not that of a role player unless guys like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman and Rudy Gobert were/are just role players
 
mook said:
He didn't look great....or maybe it was the team that didn't look great.

Regardless, he was out there for 4 minutes. Melo gets abused for 27 minutes. You know exactly what you are getting with Melo. Melo is 36 and Giles is 22.

Maybe, just maybe, we should try using the same leash on Giles as we use on Melo for a game or two before we pass judgment.
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Not saying you are wrong here at all. Tired of Melo. Throwing Giles into the fire might help him grow?
 
wizenheimer said:
that "the Blazers were 8-3 with Zach last season" is one of dumbest-most-meaningless-often-repeated stats around here

besides that painfully obvious anomaly, on the team Zach ranked:

* 12th in PER
* 11th in TS%
* 18th in FT rate
* 8th in rebound rate
* 9th in assist rate
* 16th in turnover rate
* 14th in winshares
* 11th in winshares/48
* 10th in offensive box plus/minus
* 15th in defensive box plus/minus
* 11th in box plus/minus

now, before anybody yells "sample-size", the sample of the assertion in the OP was 11 games. That's how Zach did in those 11 games. It's the full sample

I'd say it's pretty obvious that the Blazers went 8-3 in spite of Zach, not because of him
Click to expand...

There you go valuing stats over outcomes again.
 
wizenheimer said:
last thing first: no way will Zach ever have anything close to the impact Buck did

Buck was a lot more than just a role player. He was an all-NBA defender who transformed the Blazer defense from mediocre to top-5; and transformed an average rebounding team to the best in the league. He also changed the tone of the Blazers...they became one of the most physical teams in the league after Buck arrived

his impact was not that of a role player unless guys like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman and Rudy Gobert were/are just role players
Click to expand...

I agree with your assessment 100%. Buck >>> Collins.

Neither had the ability to take a team over the top when combined with only 1 all-star player.
 
handiman said:
There you go valuing stats over outcomes again.
Click to expand...

there you go spouting bullshit again

edit: I'm going to back off in the aggression level of my post there....I've been watching the happenings in DC and my blood was running hot when I posted

but you're wrong. What I was valuing was rational thought; logic and reason. If Zach had any any significant contribution to that 8-3 record, we would not have seen him register so poorly in all those stats I listed that gauge impact.

but go ahead and make your case....explain how it was that Zach was a major factor in those 8 wins
 
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Tince said:
Buck Williams was a great role player, but he was on a team with an All-NBA player in Drexler. Clyde also had two multi-time all stars around him in Terry Porter and Kevin Duckworth.

The examples of a role player, putting a team with one all star over the top is going to be limited. Certainly far less that a team with 2-3 all star level players reaching the finals.

I'm not saying Collins can't be on a team that wins the finals. I'm saying he's not going to be THE difference maker. If we have Dame, plus 2 all-stars (like Clyde did), I could believe that Collins would be effective as our Buck Williams.
Click to expand...


This isnt accurate. Neither porter or duck made the all star team until after buck arrived.
Clyde was the only all star until 91’.

Whos to say with a healthy collins, Nurk and cj are good enough to make the all star game with dame?
 
mook said:
Every minute Zach plays instead of Kanter or Melo is a massive bonus for our defense. Which, by the way, is currently 28th in the league.

I can't wait for him to return. Or for us to throw Giles out there more, who is also a vastly better defender.

If it were me, I'd run the starters normal minutes and bring only Trent and Giles off the bench. Hood if he's healthy.
Click to expand...
Yes. Time to for Giles to take some of both Melo and Kanters minutes.
 
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