OT Is Harden a top-5 SG all time?

[PtldPlatypus]

Perhaps it's too soon after last night's game to be asking this question, and perhaps it's too early in his career for this to be a consideration, but I've started to wonder where Harden ranks on the NBA's all-time list of shooting guards. Jordan is obviously the clear #1, but after him arguments can be made for Jerry West, Clyde Drexler, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade. So I wonder, where does Harden fit in with that group?

http://bkref.com/tiny/gohdB



Obviously Harden has quite a way to go to catch the others in terms of cumulative stats, but his per-game numbers measure up comparably. He outpaces Wade and Drexler in ppg, leads all but West in apg, is behind only Jordan and Wade in 2p%, and has the best 3p% and efg% of the group. Also notable that he has the most TO/g of the group.



Looking at the "normalized" stats again shows he belongs in this discussion. Scoring figures are right on par with West and Kobe, has the most assists/36, and (not surprisingly) also has the most FTA/36 (interesting to see how far below the others Clyde is on FTA). Also has the best net rating of any SG not named Jordan, and takes the fewest shots (of course benefiting from the 3-point shot). The advanced stats also speak well of him, putting him behind Jordan and Wade in PER, behind only Jordan in WS/48 and BPM, and tops of the group in TS% and Ast%.

I don't like to admit it, but while Kobe/West are probably 2-3 (in whichever order you prefer), I think that at the age of 28, Harden is already basically neck-and-neck with Wade and Clyde. If the Rockets win a title this year--a nauseatingly real possibility--I think his position on that list is undeniable, and he'll have a chance to be the 2nd-best SG in NBA history by the time all is said and done.

 

[KingSpeed]

No. He's not even top 20. I mean two years ago, he didn't even make an All NBA team. This is a great season but you need to do more than that (like not losing a home game by 38 points against a Spurs team without Kawhi in the playoffs). Let's see him win a couple titles before we put him in top 10

 

[SportsAndWhine]

“I’m required by my employer to say yes” —referees

 

[PtldPlatypus]

“I’m required by my employer to say yes” —referees

I should call a foul on Kingspeed's post...

 

[BlazerWookee]

He's a top five flopping dildo...

 

[Lanny]

Perhaps it's too soon after last night's game to be asking this question, and perhaps it's too early in his career for this to be a consideration, but I've started to wonder where Harden ranks on the NBA's all-time list of shooting guards. Jordan is obviously the clear #1, but after him arguments can be made for Jerry West, Clyde Drexler, Kobe Bryant, and Dwyane Wade. So I wonder, where does Harden fit in with that group?

http://bkref.com/tiny/gohdB

View attachment 19626

Obviously Harden has quite a way to go to catch the others in terms of cumulative stats, but his per-game numbers measure up comparably. He outpaces Wade and Drexler in ppg, leads all but West in apg, is behind only Jordan and Wade in 2p%, and has the best 3p% and efg% of the group. Also notable that he has the most TO/g of the group.

View attachment 19628

Looking at the "normalized" stats again shows he belongs in this discussion. Scoring figures are right on par with West and Kobe, has the most assists/36, and (not surprisingly) also has the most FTA/36 (interesting to see how far below the others Clyde is on FTA). Also has the best net rating of any SG not named Jordan, and takes the fewest shots (of course benefiting from the 3-point shot). The advanced stats also speak well of him, putting him behind Jordan and Wade in PER, behind only Jordan in WS/48 and BPM, and tops of the group in TS% and Ast%.

I don't like to admit it, but while Kobe/West are probably 2-3 (in whichever order you prefer), I think that at the age of 28, Harden is already basically neck-and-neck with Wade and Clyde. If the Rockets win a title this year--a nauseatingly real possibility--I think his position on that list is undeniable, and he'll have a chance to be the 2nd-best SG in NBA history by the time all is said and done.

Are you kidding me? There's no way he ranks above Jerry West, The Big O, Michael Jordan, Kobe (the rapist) Bryant, Pistol Pete, Earl the Pearl, John Havlicek and George Gervin to begin with.

 

[dviss1]

Are you kidding me? There's no way he ranks above Jerry West, The Big O, Michael Jordan, Kobe (the rapist) Bryant, Pistol Pete, Earl the Pearl, John Havlicek and George Gervin to begin with.

People really need to stop saying this... Kobe isn't a rapist. He was accused of rape. He did NOT rape her. And yes I'm defending Kobe because the truth matters.

Read his interview with police:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/kobe-bryant-police-interview

 

[dviss1]

Are you kidding me? There's no way he ranks above Jerry West, The Big O, Michael Jordan, Kobe (the rapist) Bryant, Pistol Pete, Earl the Pearl, John Havlicek and George Gervin to begin with.

I'm taking The Flopper over Pistol Pete.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Are you kidding me? There's no way he ranks above Jerry West, The Big O, Michael Jordan, Kobe (the rapist) Bryant, Pistol Pete, Earl the Pearl, John Havlicek and George Gervin to begin with.

I considered Big O a PG and Iceman a SF. As for Hondo, Pistol, and Pearl, I wouldn't put any of them above the other 5 I listed in my OP. I'd say Maravich was the best of those 3, and I'd put Harden above him.

But to each his own.

 

[dviss1]

I considered Big O a PG and Iceman a SF. As for Hondo, Pistol, and Pearl, I wouldn't put any of them above the other 5 I listed in my OP. I'd say Maravich was the best of those 3, and I'd put Harden above him.

But to each his own.

Yeah but so is The Flopper. They're very similar players.

 

[Lanny]

People really need to stop saying this... Kobe isn't a rapist. He was accused of rape. He did NOT rape her. And yes I'm defending Kobe because the truth matters.

Read his interview with police:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/kobe-bryant-police-interview

No, he admitted it. I've read his statement in the police report. He admitted to the interviewing detective that he raped her. It would have gone to trial but the victim declined to testify on account of her nearly 1 million dollars settlement.

 

[e_blazer]

I have a real problem with these kinds of discussions in trying to separate shooting guards from point guards. Harden has played both at times in his career, as have many other guards. Dame and CJ switch back and forth during each game.

Harden is damned good, but he pisses me off too much with his concentration on drawing fouls to make my list of greatest guards of all time.

 

[Lanny]

I considered Big O a PG and Iceman a SF. As for Hondo, Pistol, and Pearl, I wouldn't put any of them above the other 5 I listed in my OP. I'd say Maravich was the best of those 3, and I'd put Harden above him.

But to each his own.

The Big O was so long ago that I don't recall them distinguishing between a point guard and a shooting guard back then. If memory serves me, and it frequently fails me these days, it was just guard.

I even forgot Reggie Miller.

Harden is good at drawing the foul. He perfected the art of the under over from the three point line where he strikes the opposing player's arm while shooting. He's the reason why it's no longer a shooting foul unless the other team is in the penalty.

 

[dviss1]

No, he admitted it. I've read his statement in the police report. He admitted to the interviewing detective that he raped her. It would have gone to trial but the victim declined to testify on account of her nearly 1 million dollars settlement.

No he didn't. He most certainly did not admit to raping her. That is not true at all.

Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." Bryant stated that he assumed consent for sex because of the accuser's body language such as her kissing him, putting her hand on his penis and bending over, but that he did not explicitly ask for her consent during the encounter. Bryant later said that he believed his accuser was capable of saying no because during the encounter he asked her if he could "cum on her face", and she said no.

Law enforcement officials collected evidence from Bryant and he agreed to submit to a rape test kit and a voluntary lie detector test. On July 4, Sheriff Joe Hoy issued an arrest warrant for Bryant. Bryant flew from Los Angeles back to Eagle, Colorado to surrender to police. He was immediately released on $25,000 bond, and news of the arrest became public two days after that. On July 18, the Eagle County District Attorney's office filed a formal charge against Bryant for sexual assault. If convicted, Bryant faced probation to life in prison.

On July 18, after he was formally charged, Bryant held a news conference in which he adamantly denied having raped the woman. With his wife, Vanessa, at his side, he confessed, in tears, to having an adulterous sexual encounter with her, but insisted that everything that happened between the two had been consensual.

 

[dviss1]

I have a real problem with these kinds of discussions in trying to separate shooting guards from point guards. Harden has played both at times in his career, as have many other guards. Dame and CJ switch back and forth during each game.

Harden is damned good, but he pisses me off too much with his concentration on drawing fouls to make my list of greatest guards of all time.

Really? I'm more concerned with his flopping. Concentrating on drawing fouls is what every player should do.

 

[Chris Craig]

Isn't Harden really a 3

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Yeah but so is The Flopper. They're very similar players.

Similar, sure, but I'd say Oscar ran his team more than Harden has. Harden has basically always played with a Westbrook, or a Beverly or a Paul. Last year was really the only year he's been the PG. Up until that point, he's been a pretty traditional 2.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Isn't Harden really a 3

Why would you say that?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The Big O was so long ago that I don't recall them distinguishing between a point guard and a shooting guard back then. If memory serves me, and it frequently fails me these days, it was just guard.

That's fine; if we want to put Robertson in the same category, I don't really need to quibble. Obviously he would be right up there with Kobe and West, and I'd still say it's a debate between Wade/Clyde/Harden for the 5 spot.

Miller doesn't enter the discussion. Unless maybe you're talking about Cheryl, for whom I'd entertain the argument (although she was more a PF).

 

[handiman]

Until he has some sustained playoff success, Harden doesn't belong in the discussion, let alone on the list. Right now, his claim to fame is choking in big games. That makes regular season stats pretty meaningless.

 

[dviss1]

With regard to the OP, Harden is definitely top 10.

But really he is #1.

The #1 flopper of ALL TIME. He took the crown from Divac and his teammate is still challenging for the lead.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

No, Harden shouldn’t even be in the conversation (not that comparing players from different eras isn’t an exercise in futility). IMHO, what puts a player in the conversation is an evaluation of their entire game. Harden is pretty much one dimensional. All the players he’s compared to in this thread had much more complete games/more rounded skills. Every player noted either had good to above average defensive skills or at least made an effort to play defense. Harden can obviously play defense if he chooses, but most games he seems to be a disinterested bystander. Too, West, Kobe, Clyde and Wade all wear rings. Unless and until Harden wins one he’s just another poser.....

 

[Lanny]

No he didn't. He most certainly did not admit to raping her. That is not true at all.

Bryant admitted to having sexual intercourse with her, but stated that the sex was consensual. When asked about bruises on the accuser's neck, Bryant admitted to "strangling" her during the encounter, stating that he held her "from the back" "around her neck", that strangling during sex was his "thing" and that he had a pattern of strangling a different sex partner (not his wife) during their recurring sexual encounters. When asked how hard he was holding onto her neck, Bryant stated, "My hands are strong. I don't know." Bryant stated that he assumed consent for sex because of the accuser's body language such as her kissing him, putting her hand on his penis and bending over, but that he did not explicitly ask for her consent during the encounter. Bryant later said that he believed his accuser was capable of saying no because during the encounter he asked her if he could "cum on her face", and she said no.

Law enforcement officials collected evidence from Bryant and he agreed to submit to a rape test kit and a voluntary lie detector test. On July 4, Sheriff Joe Hoy issued an arrest warrant for Bryant. Bryant flew from Los Angeles back to Eagle, Colorado to surrender to police. He was immediately released on $25,000 bond, and news of the arrest became public two days after that. On July 18, the Eagle County District Attorney's office filed a formal charge against Bryant for sexual assault. If convicted, Bryant faced probation to life in prison.

On July 18, after he was formally charged, Bryant held a news conference in which he adamantly denied having raped the woman. With his wife, Vanessa, at his side, he confessed, in tears, to having an adulterous sexual encounter with her, but insisted that everything that happened between the two had been consensual.

Yeah, he denied it but I'm telling you at one point during the interview he admitted raping her and he used the word rape. The report was difficult to get and I doubt I could find it again but I read it myself.

I think the other stuff was in a vain attempt to save his marriage.

I also heard that the other wives of his teammates told her that they knew of frequent cheating by Kobe when they traveled.

Kind of like Marv Albert, I lost respect for him.

 

[CupWizier]

No, Harden shouldn’t even be in the conversation (not that comparing players from different eras isn’t an exercise in futility). IMHO, what puts a player in the conversation is an evaluation of their entire game. Harden is pretty much one dimensional. All the players he’s compared to in this thread had much more complete games/more rounded skills. Every player noted either had good to above average defensive skills or at least made an effort to play defense. Harden can obviously play defense if he chooses, but most games he seems to be a disinterested bystander. Too, West, Kobe, Clyde and Wade all wear rings. Unless and until Harden wins one he’s just another poser.....

How would you rank John Stockton and Steve Nash as point guards?

 

[Lukee]

Because of Playoffs not yet, but he'll become that for sure.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

How would you rank John Stockton and Steve Nash as point guards?

They actually had the ability to elevate their teammates........or to overcome their shortcomings when the elevator got stuck between floors. I havent seen Harden do that yet. And while I don’t know that I would anoint Stockton as an all time defensive player, he knew the tricks (dirty or otherwise) to overcome being shorter and slower than so many of his counterparts. I’d go to war with a Stockton or Nash. Harden not so much.....

 

[e_blazer]

Really? I'm more concerned with his flopping. Concentrating on drawing fouls is what every player should do.

I guess I count the flopping as a part of what my bitch with Harden is. In Harden’s case, I think that the intent to draw a foul call, even if by flopping, is number one in his mindset. Instead of just trying to make a basketball play, he stands on the perimeter trying to bait guys into fouling him. All of the good players, including Dame, do that to some extent, but with Harden it seems like it’s his main intention. He’s a master at the rip-through move. I’d love to see the league change the way that’s called, similar to how they dumped the leg kick that gave Reggie Miller endless trips to the foul line. It gives the offensive player too much of an advantage in these no hand checking days.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

People really need to stop saying this... Kobe isn't a rapist. He was accused of rape. He did NOT rape her. And yes I'm defending Kobe because the truth matters.

Read his interview with police:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/kobe-bryant-police-interview

He did the same thing here in Portland to a woman who worked at the Benson Hotel and paid her off too. And those are who we know about.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

In terms of talent? Yes he is top 5. SG is probably the most top heavy position of all time in GOAT talks.

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4/5. Harden/Drexler

No disrespect to Jerry West but different era and I don’t know about his on court play compared to the guys I listed.

 

[Chris Craig]

Why would you say that?

Just to argue