Is it the team or is it the coach?

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dino33

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damn... if i was frank i would give this team an ass wooping for not giving in the effort they should... 5 game lossing streak need to end... they need to attack the basket

the team isnt bad...

harris is an attack orientated pg, but he has future and talent
carter and Jefferson are good wings, players you can build around
Krstic needs recovery but solid
boone is solid

weve got good subs....

this team can win games if they are motivated and have the passion to win, they neeed to attack the basket more often and not be so careless

remember the game Vs dallas home game where the nets won? they need to play like tht
 
it's some of the most depressing basketball I've ever seen. I mean. EVER. Yes, worse than the days after Kenny Anderson and Coleman and Drazen...the "dark days" before Kidd...I mean, those team looked like they at least TRIED.
 
IMO now even Phil Jackson can't help the Nets. Let's hope they work hard during offseason, gel as a team and do better next season. as for now, now we're heading to lottery.
 
This team should be winning. The starting five is solid. The Nets have a good shooting guard who demands double-teams. They have a small forward who also demand double teams. They have a PG who run, shoot, and defend. They have a PF who can open up the paint with his shooting. They have a center that can rebound and defend.

The Nets have a bench where at least four players could be starters for a lot of other teams (Swift, Diop, Hassell, and S. Williams). They have a great energy guy off the bench in Boki.....

I mean how can you get better than this on paper?!?

It is all a matter of motivation from the players as well as a suitable offensive and defensive system. The offensive system I think is the main cause of all the Nets' troubles. Motivation is the second cause. We need either an assistant coach or player to come in an fire everyone up.

The Nets better turn this thing around or I'm going to get depressed along with a lot of other fans.
 
This is now Larry Frank's team for better or worse. I can give him a pass for the rest of the year since it's virtually a new team. But something's got to give since this team, the way it's playing right now, has no prayer of getting in this year's playoffs.

An interesting tidbit from RJ after Frank supposedly called out VC and him on WFAN on Thursday, was he deflected by saying that the coach has to show better body language as well. Could this be internal feelings of the team as well that maybe coach is getting on the team's nerves and have blocked him out?
 
I was going to start a thread asking if Frank should be the coach heading into the future.

Frank is supposed to be this defensive coach but whatever Frank is selling the players aren't buying it. What's the point of having Frank if he can't get through to them playing effective defense, because Frank certainly isn't an offensive coach. It's ridiculous how season after season the team comes in lacking an "identity" or don't know how to play winning basketball when they have shown they could in years past. Why are they always searching for it and why is it always a work in progress? Some of it can be blamed on injuries and other stuff but even still there is something wrong.

I've come around to it. I don't mind seeing Frank fired. I wasn't looking to it before because there is the question of who replaces him. But with no expectations left for this team this season I don't mind seeing Frank let go tomorrow and starting fresh next season with a New coach and New philosophy. Let an assistant coach takeover and if the Nets respond and turn it around and get the 8th seed then whatever. If they continue to play horrible then atleast make it as fun as possible like this play by Sean Williams and then start fresh next season:

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ohhhhhhhh ok now that I saw it again it was a failed alley oop to Boki, that's not on Sean that was on Boki, jump fool !!!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netsfan318 @ Mar 8 2008, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ohhhhhhhh ok now that I saw it again it was a failed alley oop to Boki, that's not on Sean that was on Boki, jump fool !!!</div>
lol if Boki were superman he still wouldn't make it
 
i think some coach or some player should make a statement or something like tht to get them fired up and play with motivation
 
This is a bad team on paper and on the floor.

1) They have no player with a burning desire to win

2) Their best offensive player is significantly hampered by injury

3) They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus @ Mar 8 2008, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Netsfan318 @ Mar 8 2008, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ohhhhhhhh ok now that I saw it again it was a failed alley oop to Boki, that's not on Sean that was on Boki, jump fool !!!</div>
lol if Boki were superman he still wouldn't make it

</div>
I bet Sean catches it
 
poorly constructed roster, this team is stuck in the middle, to old to be considered a youth movement and to young to be a veteran team, absolutely ZERO outside shooting, no playmaking, touch sched., to many one dimensional players and a coach who is as confused as everyone else.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div>

Or in the paint.

But I'm sure there are lots of coaches who could win big with a roster that has no good shooters and no post threats.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Mar 9 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div>

Or in the paint.

But I'm sure there are lots of coaches who could win big with a roster that has no good shooters and no post threats.
</div>

Only if you have a dynamic scorer that dominates the ball while the rest of the roster plays damn good defense.
 
The answer to the question at the beginning of the thread is that the these remaining games will show us whether Frank should be the coach and which players we should definitely keep. I feel like there needs to be defined roles on this team. The nightly power struggle between VC and RJ is pretty annoying, I think RJ needs to realize that he's not a number one option on a winning team and that when the offense runs through Vince is when we win. Whether you hate or love Vince, ever since he's been on the nets, the more Vince scores the more we win. RJ needs to get back to doing what he does best, defend, run, slash and be efficient. Devin Harris needs to stop pretending he has a shot like Steve Nash and start penetrating and kicking the ball out to VC, RJ and Krstic on the perimeter. He has to learn to set up his teammates. These 3 guys have no excuse to play this crappy, the problem with them in my opinion is that they're all playing a style of basketball where they haven't been successful. Devin is a penetrating PG, VC is an all around scorer (not a complementary scorer) and RJ is an all around complementary SF. What's most important is that we look at our bigs and see who has the potential to 1) score and 2) Rebound and play defense. The problem is we don't have a guy that does both consistently but we all know the big man that can play both sides of the ball is the most coveted type of player in basketball. hopefully these last few games will allow us to see who we should keep.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is a bad team on paper and on the floor.

1) They have no player with a burning desire to win

2) Their best offensive player is significantly hampered by injury

3) They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div>

2 and 3 are a given. This team would be in a different place had not Carter suffered the ankle injury. This is not the Carter of years past, and he needs to rest the ankle. The team physician did him and the Nets a disservice by allowing him to return before he had healed sufficiently to avoid a chronic ankle problem (like RJ last season).

They really do need shooters (losing House and Moore this year, and only getting back Krstic for the last few games is not sufficient) to punish teams for playing zone defenses.

As for 1, they appear to be trying hard at times (for example, in the Dallas game when RJ tried to chase down S Williams missed dunk and crossed midcourt), but the team is playing incoherently. Players are not familiar with each other, and there is no go to guy this season (see reason #2). Carter wants to lead, he just can't dominate with his current physical condition. Saturdays game was a back to back, and Carter's game did not look particularly good.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ Mar 9 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div>

Or in the paint.

But I'm sure there are lots of coaches who could win big with a roster that has no good shooters and no post threats.
</div>

Only if you have a dynamic scorer that dominates the ball while the rest of the roster plays damn good defense.
</div>

p1brown.jpg
 
the core of the team is okay, the players are okay, but i think they need to know what they have to do individually to win games... carter is taking too many perimeter shots, he shood slash and drive more often.. like in the dallas game the start of the thrid quarter nobody could stop him, thts how we need him to play. Frank also needs to learn how to use the players efficiently. Marcus is shooting good now, i would like to see him play as a backup 2.
 
We could use some more post scorers, we have some good bigs, but Krstic is the only one who can get more than garbage points. Also, Devin, Vince and RJ have recently shot worse than normal, I think they'll get better over time, as they learn to play together. People were saying VC and RJ can't play together, but that worked, Devin is another one, I have to imagine it'll just take some getting used to. Our rebounding has been poor as of late as well, Krstic has done better, but Boone worse. RJ seems to not be able to rebound anymore, and Devin isn't as good as Kidd at rebounding. I think we should just give the time to mesh, get a few new pieces, and if it doesn't work out next season, then we can start to worry.
 
I think Carter's injury was significantly limiting him pre-cortisone (in other words, pre January 29th). But I think he is close enough to 100% to still be plenty dangerous if utilized properly. Problem is, he isn't being utilized properly (nor is Harris, for that matter.) Frank apparently needs a ton of bricks to fall on him to realize that the surest way to get Vince scoring IN THE PAINT and going to the foul line early is to put him in the post. My God, he scored incredibly easy from that location in San Antonio on two early possessions. NEVER SAW IT the rest of the game. After a horrible start in Memphis, he scored from the post in the third. Never saw it again. He never got the ball once in the post against Dallas.

In the spring of 04-05 when Vince had arguably the best stretch of his career, he started more games than not on the baselines, back to the basket, 10 feet and in. He was deadly from the post, and it's generally much easier from a physical standpoint for him to create for teammates from there than from the the top of the key (where Frank utilizes him almost exclusively as an initiator now). He doesn't have to put the same stress on the ankle, doesn't have to utilize quick stops and changes of direction as much, which result in more energy having to be applied and absorbed by the legs. It's so freaking obvious, yet WE NEVER SEE THIS NOW. WHY“

Yes, the team just made a major trade. Yes it's going to be very difficult trying to work in major players on the fly, especially a point guard. I also don't expect miracles when Boki Nachbar is your designated shooter. But many of Frank's offensive "sets" SUCK. Face it. They don't begin to produce anything close to high quality, rhythm shots, and don't think for a moment that that lack of "rhythm" to the Nets' sets isn't a significant factor in why they shoot such a low percentage. All 20 foot jump shots are not created equal.

I cringed tonight when I saw Frank run that ridiculous play where the PG hands to Vince, who brings the ball to the left side, hands it to the 5 (Krstic, in this case), jogs through the lane, around a baseline screen and back out to grab the ball back from Krstic. What did this "play" accomplish? Let's see: it made Vince run an extra 15 steps and take an extra 8 seconds off the clock to wind up 20 feet from the hoop with no option except that which he might create on the fly under time pressure from that point on. And, of course, once wasn't enough for this great "set". They ran it AGAIN, with more abysmal results, the next time down.

I don't really know what the deal is with Frank. He seems to know the game when you hear him speak about it. He can back up his observations with great detail and statistical foundation. He often draws up effective plays after time outs and usually does a decent job in last shot situations of getting the ball to the right player for a last second shot. But his offense, particularly last year and this year, just looks pathetic on the whole. Short answer, it's not all the players' fault. Not by a long shot.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Mar 9 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think Carter's injury was significantly limiting him pre-cortisone (in other words, pre January 29th). But I think he is close enough to 100% to still be plenty dangerous if utilized properly. Problem is, he isn't being utilized properly (nor is Harris, for that matter.) Frank apparently needs a ton of bricks to fall on him to realize that the surest way to get Vince scoring IN THE PAINT and going to the foul line early is to put him in the post. My God, he scored incredibly easy from that location in San Antonio on two early possessions. NEVER SAW IT the rest of the game. After a horrible start in Memphis, he scored from the post in the third. Never saw it again. He never got the ball once in the post against Dallas.

In the spring of 04-05 when Vince had arguably the best stretch of his career, he started more games than not on the baselines, back to the basket, 10 feet and in. He was deadly from the post, and it's generally much easier from a physical standpoint for him to create for teammates from there than from the the top of the key (where Frank utilizes him almost exclusively as an initiator now). He doesn't have to put the same stress on the ankle, doesn't have to utilize quick stops and changes of direction as much, which result in more energy having to be applied and absorbed by the legs. It's so freaking obvious, yet WE NEVER SEE THIS NOW. WHY“

Yes, the team just made a major trade. Yes it's going to be very difficult trying to work in major players on the fly, especially a point guard. I also don't expect miracles when Boki Nachbar is your designated shooter. But many of Frank's offensive "sets" SUCK. Face it. They don't begin to produce anything close to high quality, rhythm shots, and don't think for a moment that that lack of "rhythm" to the Nets' sets isn't a significant factor in why they shoot such a low percentage. All 20 foot jump shots are not created equal.

I cringed tonight when I saw Frank run that ridiculous play where the PG hands to Vince, who brings the ball to the left side, hands it to the 5 (Krstic, in this case), jogs through the lane, around a baseline screen and back out to grab the ball back from Krstic. What did this "play" accomplish? Let's see: it made Vince run an extra 15 steps and take an extra 8 seconds off the clock to wind up 20 feet from the hoop with no option except that which he might create on the fly under time pressure from that point on. And, of course, once wasn't enough for this great "set". They ran it AGAIN, with more abysmal results, the next time down.

I don't really know what the deal is with Frank. He seems to know the game when you hear him speak about it. He can back up his observations with great detail and statistical foundation. He often draws up effective plays after time outs and usually does a decent job in last shot situations of getting the ball to the right player for a last second shot. But his offense, particularly last year and this year, just looks pathetic on the whole. Short answer, it's not all the players' fault. Not by a long shot.</div>

Putting Carter in the post is an excellent idea. It won't work in all situations, but it does make sense to get Carter closer to the basket.
He does look better after the cortisone shot, but looks far from 100% to me. He doesn't seem to get as good elevation as he used to on many of his jump shots for example. But reducing the stress on Carter's ankle and the energy he expends is a good idea.

The motion offense probably has to go, although it may be difficult to change midseason.
 
Frank runs no semblance of a motion offense, he should honestly look into going to a coaching clinic or just have Thorn and KiKi bring in someone who will help him a REAL lead assistant
 
Our Off. scheme is rediculous. I've said it before, our low post get no touches to keep the def. honest, and our outside shooting is horrid. This "motion" Off. has no motion on it other then our bigs setting high picks so that rj can commit more charges. The Offence is nothing but players taking one on one and iso's and the only player who is actually good at that is vince. We suck, face it, Frank pull your head outa your a** and start strying to develope your other guys and don't sit Sean Williams every time he does somthing wrong, because you don't sit your starters after they commit stupid plays, and the chances are are at least one of your guys in rj or vince will be gone next season so please at least TRY to develope our young players.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Mar 9 2008, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is a bad team on paper and on the floor.

1) They have no player with a burning desire to win

2) Their best offensive player is significantly hampered by injury

3) They are lacking players that other teams have to respect on the perimeter</div>

Ding ding ding!!!

Our "superstar" tends to remind me of the kid on your little league team who doesn't really want to play, but is there every year because his dad keeps signing him up.

Vince doesn't care if he wins or loses. He'll try sometimes... but not nearly often enough, and not nearly hard enough. Injuries schminjuries. Other than his first season here and his first years in the league, 90% of all the play by play during Vince games is about how he needs to attack the basket more. Wanna get fucked up? Make a drinking game out of every time Marv and/or Mark and/or Sparky mention Vince's name and things like "needs to be more aggressive" and "attack the rim" and "bad shot" and "settling" and so on. This is just Vince Carter basketball, like it or not. And, because of the injuries, and because of his not-so-gradual decline in athletic ability... this just becomes worse and worse by the season. Combine this with his overall lack of burning desire to, ya know, win... and the fact that he's your team's "guy," and the result is one horrible ****ing basketball team. Which of course, is exactly what we have.

And RJ... he's a shitty first option, and a shitty second option. He's an alright 3rd option though, especially on a running team... neither of which is true right now. This only adds to the reasons why we suck.

And, just for added fun, neither guy plays defense. I have a vague memory of RJ locking down the other teams best player on a fairly consistent basis. I must have dreamed that or something. I think I can also remember a time when RJ took less jumpers than Vince. Heck, I think it may even have been this season. Nope, must have dreamed that too.

These are our current leaders/superstars/go-to-guys, mind you.

Oh, and I might think the coach sucks too. At first I wasn't sure and leaned more towards being pro-coach and anti-players, now I'm still anti-players, but leaning more towards anti-coach. This may be because he does a lot (more so this season than ever before) of dumb shit, but it also may be because I'm so annoyed at watching this team that I just want to start fresh. Get rid of everything left over from the Kidd era (which would include Frank, RJ and Vince), and start a new era. The Boone Era, The Williams Era (this could double as two guy's eras, which is a bonus for the marketing guys), The Devin Era... I don't give a shit whose era it is, I just want something new. Keep the young guys, bring in a coach better suited for coaching/developing young guys and actually understands offense, bring in some good parts that actually compliment each other (as in, don't surround Jason Kidd with guys who don't ****ing run, you idiots), maybe try that whole defensive minded running team again. Guys like Devin and Sean are good pieces for building that type of team.

What's the worst that can happen? We end up sucking slightly less than we sucked this season and we are 50 times more fun to watch?
 
This team needs shooters, BADLY! The offense is so hard to watch since other teams know they don't have to respect anyone on the perimeter besides RJ and Vince. There's a reason why LeBron is so effective in creating for teammates and picking up assists, because him GM was smart enough to surround him with shooters.
 
i think we should try a variation of Memphis's offensive scheme...The Memphis Attack the basis of the offensive is that perimeter players spread the ball around and the PG drives to the bucket for either a layup or to kick it out after the defense collapses...Would work well with Harris, and probably would fit Krstic and his 15 footer.

The Memphis attack is tied to the Princeton offense and could actually be used to change the scheme depending on the players on the court at any given time...Also would like to see us incorporate some aspects of the triangle...

Ideally what I would like to see is a coach come in here an examine our depth and try to make set units...these units would all be players who would run different sets of a specialized offense...some days we'd slow it down utilizing more of a triangle, other days more Princeton, and other days an all out Memphis attack...maybe even a little Nellie Ball. Basically teaching loose fundamentals of several offenses which allow the team to use matchups that best expose other teams weaknesses...it would innovative, but will probably never happen.
 
To make a long story short, they both suck, the team and the coach

Complete overhaul thats what we need, players with desire to win and passion, not this baffoons@
 
For next season I hope the Nets look to do these things:

1) Try to land a marquee bigman.

2) Get shooters.

3) Get a new coach who can get the players to buy into something in training camp and preseason and be ready to go from day one of the season and be really good on at least one end of the floor and decent on the other end and gradually improve from there.
 

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