Is it time to bring Hart off the bench?

[STOMP]

I did read it

then why not respond to what I wrote instead of doubling down on Bones's ridiculous never played bluster?

I played in a big summer league, too, for years against NBA players, overseas pros, major college players, even a couple of Harlem Globetrotters. I also coached basically every level. Summer leagues we played 40 minutes with running clocks except the last two minutes. It's nothing ... NOTHING ... like an actual organized team playing with high stakes where EVERYONE is a top-level athlete. The level of playing is nothing alike. To think that it is your level of self-awareness has to be about zero, or you might be the most narcissistic person on this board, and that means even more than me and Bones.

good grief with the needless personal insults. Have I insulted you? Why are you rushing to defend Bones's nonsense? Why are you personally invested here? The only reason I listed my playing experience was because Bones stated I clearly had never played. Did you skip over that part too? None of us have played in the NBA, so we're all just passing along our secondary experiences watching. Obviously there are decades of examples of guys playing much longer stretches then 18 minutes. His statement that Ant doing so would leave him completely gassed is laughable to me. As one of many counters I could list, from ages 23-25 MJ averaged over 40 minutes per game regularly hitting gamewinners down the stretch... was he completely gassed too or are you going to contend that the little downtime he had completely refreshed him? Of course had his career been in this era he would have had his minutes curtailed and load management employeed, but instead he played 80+ games in each of those years.

Mostly I find your left field personal insults to be pathetic as if you can't converse or handle ideas other then your own (or apparently Bones's). You're so out of control you had to double back and do it twice... whats wrong with you?

STOMP

 

[wizenheimer]

Just when I thought I read everything I could read on this board, someone still proves they can surprise me with their ability to be delusional.

I never bad-mouth delusional....I have 2 ex-wives

 

[PCmor7]

I never bad-mouth delusional....I have 2 ex-wives

I didn't bad-mouth it. I said STOMP surprised me.

 

[PCmor7]

I mean, as delusion goes, that's pretty high-quality delusion. It's the Waterboy H2O of delusion.

 

[PCmor7]

then why not respond to what I wrote instead of doubling down on Bones's ridiculous never played bluster?


good grief with the needless personal insults. Have I insulted you? Why are you rushing to defend Bones's nonsense? Why are you personally invested here? The only reason I listed my playing experience was because Bones stated I clearly had never played. Did you skip over that part too? None of us have played in the NBA, so we're all just passing along our secondary experiences watching. Obviously there are decades of examples of guys playing much longer stretches then 18 minutes. His statement that Ant doing so would leave him completely gassed is laughable to me. As one of many counters I could list, from ages 23-25 MJ averaged over 40 minutes per game regularly hitting gamewinners down the stretch... was he completely gassed too or are you going to contend that the little downtime he had completely refreshed him? Of course had his career been in this era he would have had his minutes curtailed and load management employeed, but instead he played 80+ games in each of those years.

Mostly I find your left field personal insults to be pathetic as if you can't converse or handle ideas other then your own (or apparently Bones's). You're so out of control you had to double back and do it twice... whats wrong with you?

STOMP

As I recall, you did insult me a month or so ago. And I'm not defending Bones; he and I go at it from time to time. I'm defending reason, sanity and reality. Comparing your pick-up experience with NBA games takes a reach like Bol Bol's.

Also, I take exception to my personal insults being called left-field. They were delivered right down the middle.

Anyway, you've been picking and choosing NBA Top 75 all-time players who were doing this 30-40 years ago. They also were starting, so even if they played 40 minutes they weren't playing 18-20 minutes straight on a regular basis.

 

[STOMP]

As I recall, you did insult me a month or so ago. And I'm not defending Bones; he and I go at it from time to time. I'm defending reason, sanity and reality. Comparing your pick-up experience with NBA games takes a reach like Bol Bol's.

your reading comprehension is not good... do you have to be told everything twice? Again, the only reason my playing experience was brought up was because Bones stated I hadn't played. No one here has played in the NBA so of course it's wasn't a direct comparison.

Also, I take exception to my personal insults being called left-field. They were delivered right down the middle.

They were completely unprovoked and pathetic. If you're so sensitive and unable to handle what others write here about hoops (and not you personally) without going off the deep end, maybe you should block people or really get a new hobby. Grinding away waiting to insult a poster because you think they might have insulted you a while back in an unrelated conversation is pathetic and bad for the board.

Anyway, you've been picking and choosing NBA Top 75 all-time players who were doing this 30-40 years ago. They also were starting, so even if they played 40 minutes they weren't playing 18-20 minutes straight on a regular basis.

Why in the world does any of that matter? Was it easier to play 18-20 minuutes when the TV timeouts weren't so frequent or long? Maybe it was the more physical play (hand checking, hard fouls etc) in MJ's day rather then standing around at the 3pt line that made it so easy to play longer back then? Good grief, did you watch any of the World Cup? All the guys are going at least 45 minutes straight both halves without muliple breaks for timeouts, FTs & reviewing every other foul to see if it was a flagrant... lots of stop/starting, physical play and a hell of a lot more running for those professionals. Following those games, each and every player is clearly gassed... it's smiles, hows your mama and glad thats over/lets go clubbing following NBA games.

In today's NBA, all the players minutes (even the NBA Top 75 all-time players) are much more curtailed & regulated... thats a given. But thats not done because they can't go longer (completely gassed), it's because teams are trying to maximize their impact and keep them healthier. It seems that these efforts are failing on the later front as guys are suffering more long-term injuries then ever before, but I digress. It's likely Mike (& all the many others) would have had higher efficiency had they played less minutes, but teams prioritized having their best players on the court then off as what was best for the team. It's preemptive load management dictating their actions, not completely exhausted players

Portland has the unfortunate issue of having their 2 best players both be ball dominant 6'2 190 lb PGs. In my 40+ years of being an NBA junkie, I can think of no teams that were similarly constructed, so how they manage roles shouldn't neccessarily be the same as other teams. For me the option of bringing Ant off the bench is better overall for the team even if it might wear on the young man's efficiency. To my eyes, Ant is in the upper escelon of run/jump athletes ever to play for Portland and more then capable of handling it.

STOMP

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

It’s not Ant who I think is Charmin soft. I’m 100% positive he’d laugh at your claims of what he’s not capable of. No one is buying your nonsense, so sorry. Merry Christmas softy!

STOMP

WTF ...can you have a conflicting conversation without resorting to condemnation and insults? For fucks sake…

Anyhow….

I'm not gonna sit here resorting to whatever childish bullshit you're on. Just show me one coach brings a 20ppg scorer off the bench to play 18 minutes straight to end halves. I'll be waiting. Shoot, I'll give you the past decade to find one coach thats done that.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas Thibs.

There isn't one team in the nba that plays thier starters the first 18 minutes straight. To suggest it could and should be done is
This soft shit is hilarious.

Also. The game has sped up significantly from the Wilt days. They used to walk up the court.
How many possessions per game for teams in the 70-80’s vs now?

sorry you are bringing up points of contention and the rebuttal you get is this is softy bs.

What a crock of shit. Stick to your own pages bro. The crap you take isn't worth your effort bro.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

As I recall, you did insult me a month or so ago. And I'm not defending Bones; he and I go at it from time to time. I'm defending reason, sanity and reality. Comparing your pick-up experience with NBA games takes a reach like Bol Bol's.

Also, I take exception to my personal insults being called left-field. They were delivered right down the middle.

Anyway, you've been picking and choosing NBA Top 75 all-time players who were doing this 30-40 years ago. They also were starting, so even if they played 40 minutes they weren't playing 18-20 minutes straight on a regular basis.

He insults anyone who doesn't agree with him almost all the time. And then blames it on the other person.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

As I recall, you did insult me a month or so ago. And I'm not defending Bones; he and I go at it from time to time. I'm defending reason, sanity and reality. Comparing your pick-up experience with NBA games takes a reach like Bol Bol's.

Also, I take exception to my personal insults being called left-field. They were delivered right down the middle.

Anyway, you've been picking and choosing NBA Top 75 all-time players who were doing this 30-40 years ago. They also were starting, so even if they played 40 minutes they weren't playing 18-20 minutes straight on a regular basis.

They didnt run back then like they do now. There is so much context to the different styles, to say they did it then so they can do it now is as shallow an argument as lake mead has become…

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

 

[Pinwheel1]

We often define the bench as who starts the 2nd quarter. Last night it was Ant, Keon, Nurk, Watford, and Grant.
I like that rotation. I imagine GP2 will replace Keon in that lineup. That does not include Winslow or Little or Sharpe.
So I am wondering if maybe we have the players, we just need them to play better. (and get healthy)

 

[BonesJones]

WTF ...can you have a conflicting conversation without resorting to condemnation and insults? For fucks sake…

Anyhow….



There isn't one team in the nba that plays thier starters the first 18 minutes straight. To suggest it could and should be done is
This soft shit is hilarious.

Also. The game has sped up significantly from the Wilt days. They used to walk up the court.
How many possessions per game for teams in the 70-80’s vs now?

sorry you are bringing up points of contention and the rebuttal you get is this is softy bs.

What a crock of shit. Stick to your own pages bro. The crap you take isn't worth your effort bro.

It's all good. The softy comment is funny to me. I'd like to see how he'd respond to some of the things I get to read online. I assume he'd handle it better since I'm so soft, but given his responses in here, I'm not sure!

 

[Fairly-Hard]

It's all good. The softy comment is funny to me. I'd like to see how he'd respond to some of the things I get to read online. I assume he'd handle it better since I'm so soft, but given his responses in here, I'm not sure!

No. Not many handle that very well. I’m actually trying to be nicer to you with the crap you take.

 

[BonesJones]

What makes basketball so hard to win consistently is that what works for one team may not work for another. Having 2 smaller guards who can't defend at all means they have to use Hart and Grant to guard the other teams top scorers, which means we have to have some bad mismatches like Dame or Ant guarding Porter or Gordon, or both. Throw in a dancing bear center who can't stay in front of anybody, a defensive that switches everything, and it's gonna be tough to slow any team.
I'll get in the dick measuring game if that's what it takes to prove basketball knowledge. With this team there are several smaller issues that add up to bigger problems. I think the first steps are getting a better partner for Dame at the 2 and a center that is more athletic and consistent.

I wonder just how good Dame or Ant would have to be defensively to shed the "two guards that can't defend" narrative. I thought Dame was our best perimeter defender last night. Made multiple impressive plays, faught through screens... He seems committed to that end and without him having to carry the entire offense, it seems like he has more energy for defense.

Simons hasn't been good but I think he's been okay as of late. I wouldn't say "he can't defend", he just seems inconsistent to me. Had some impressive moments against Denver.

I've been spending time to go through video of every shot attempt for opposing teams (that you can find in the NBA.com box scores) to try to get away from any preconceived notions that I have about Player X being a good defender and Player Y being a bad defender. Instead I've been trying to look with an open mind as to what's leading to our defensive breakdowns. I haven't seen our backcourt be bad defensively lately, and we struggled when Dame was out and Justise started, so I'm wondering if I'm hallucinating (and I'd love for someone to show me what I'm missing) or if I'm right, how long the backcourt would have to be solid to shed that label.

 

[Tince]

View attachment 52385

View attachment 52386

Speaking from experience, I have a piece of friendly advice: Make sure to include all 30 teams on your screenshots or else you might be accused of trying to trick others that there are only 15 or 22 teams in the NBA.

 

[Propagandist]

Holy boring.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Also. The game has sped up significantly from the Wilt days. They used to walk up the court.

I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. In 1962 (Wilt's 50 ppg year), league average was 107 shots per game per team; this year, it's 88. Pace slowed gradually from the 60's all the way to the early 2000's before ticking back up, but we're only now back on par with the mid-80's.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

I wonder just how good Dame or Ant would have to be defensively to shed the "two guards that can't defend" narrative. I thought Dame was our best perimeter defender last night. Made multiple impressive plays, faught through screens... He seems committed to that end and without him having to carry the entire offense, it seems like he has more energy for defense.

Simons hasn't been good but I think he's been okay as of late. I wouldn't say "he can't defend", he just seems inconsistent to me. Had some impressive moments against Denver.

I've been spending time to go through video of every shot attempt for opposing teams (that you can find in the NBA.com box scores) to try to get away from any preconceived notions that I have about Player X being a good defender and Player Y being a bad defender. Instead I've been trying to look with an open mind as to what's leading to our defensive breakdowns. I haven't seen our backcourt be bad defensively lately, and we struggled when Dame was out and Justise started, so I'm wondering if I'm hallucinating (and I'd love for someone to show me what I'm missing) or if I'm right, how long the backcourt would have to be solid to shed that label.

I do not think either are terribly bad if they only had to defend a point guard and think Nurk suffers from lineups with two undersized defenders. However, with both on the court (and Hart being an undersized SF) it makes it extremely easy for a team to find a mismatch.

 

[BonesJones]

I do not think either are terribly bad if they only had to defend a point guard and think Nurk suffers from lineups with two undersized defenders. However, with both on the court (and Hart being an undersized SF) it makes it extremely easy for a team to find a mismatch.

I would love to see it, though. Doesn't seem like teams have much success hunting mismatches. Dame's a good low-post defender. Blocked Gordon Hayward last night. Hart defends bigger than he is but shouldn't be put on 4s (matchup decisions have been a problem this year in my opinion).

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Speaking from experience, I have a piece of friendly advice: Make sure to include all 30 teams on your screenshots or else you might be accused of trying to trick others that there are only 15 or 22 teams in the NBA.

im not sure what you mean??

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. In 1962 (Wilt's 50 ppg year), league average was 107 shots per game per team; this year, it's 88. Pace slowed gradually from the 60's all the way to the early 2000's before ticking back up, but we're only now back on par with the mid-80's.

Its weird. The site i posted the possessions per game from only let me go back so far. I went as far back as it would let me. i found a either site and you are correct. Not sure about the wilt days but early Jordan days were right around 106 per game.
Was full court defense played though?
At any rate, my eye test says athletes are much more explosive than yesterdays athletes. This explosion exerts more effort and energy.

Yes im sure most athletes today CAN play 18 minutes straight. Will their last five minute be just as good as the first five? Not likely in my opinion.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

im not sure what you mean??

He should have written that in green font.

 

[Cugel]

Luka played 47 last night in a single OT game. Pretty decent game too. played basically the entire second half and OT. Kidd plays him a TON. All it takes is one injury...

I could see if it was a game 7 but jeez that is a lot of wear in a regular game

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Luka played 47 last night in a single OT game. Pretty decent game too. played basically the entire second half and OT. Kidd plays him a TON. All it takes is one injury...

I could see if it was a game 7 but jeez that is a lot of wear in a regular game

Lots of minutes for sure. Luka has a style that seems to allow that a bit more? No question he carries the team.

 

[STOMP]

WTF ...can you have a conflicting conversation without resorting to condemnation and insults? For fucks sake…

For fuck sake, look at what I was responding to. My opinion wasn't valid because I obviously hadn't played basketball. I was responding in kind to someone who can't handle it when others scoff at ridiculous hot takes. It wasn't me who made it personal

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

Its weird. The site i posted the possessions per game from only let me go back so far. I went as far back as it would let me. i found a either site and you are correct. Not sure about the wilt days but early Jordan days were right around 106 per game. Was full court defense played though?

yes, as much as today

At any rate, my eye test says athletes are much more explosive than yesterdays athletes. This explosion exerts more effort and energy.

What yesterday are you referring to? George Mikan's? MJ's? It reads like you're saying MJ's and if so I would strongly disagree. MJ, Clyde & Dominique (among others) are top shelf run/jump athletes in any era. From that same time, Hakeem & David Robinson are the most athletic Bigs I've ever seen.

STOMP

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

yes, as much as today


What yesterday are you referring to? George Mikan's? MJ's? It reads like you're saying MJ's and if so I would strongly disagree. MJ, Clyde & Dominique (among others) are top shelf run/jump athletes in any era. From that same time, Hakeem & David Robinson are the most athletic Bigs I've ever seen.

STOMP

mjs era was absolutely athletic. They were the turn from the non athletic 60’s and early 70’s. At least my eyeball test from watching limited footage. But it seemed they used to run up the court and then play a half court game taking time to get the ball into the paint.
Running and Dunking wasn't really a thing until Dr.J came along. Up till then it was feed the ball in the paint.
I will say i didn't start watching basketball in the reg until about 86-87, so I'm not certain.

point being there isn't any player from any running era that i know of that was being played 18 minutes straight on the regular.
Im sure there are anomaly games, but the suggestion was this could be done regularly as a rotation.
I hard disagree. All players would be gassed those last 3-5 minutes. Being gassed leads to lazy defense. Lazy defense leads losses.

not buying this at all. Basketball players are thoroughbred sprinters. Not long distance runners.

 

[STOMP]

From start to finish an average NBA game takes place over a span of about 2 hours and 20 minutes or 140 minutes. Subtract out halftime (15 minutes) and we're down to 105 minutes, so the 24 minutes of each half takes place over about 52:30. Prorating the 18 minutes of game time we're talking about to time that is actually passing comes out to almost 40 minutes (39:24). While NBA game time is a series of bursts of action with regular even longer breaks between, those breaks for Free Throws and Time Outs mostly happen at the end of the Quarters and Halfs. Those 18 minutes we're debating happen when actual game time is least condensed... there is nothing straight about it.

As I've acknowledged repeatedly, rest is an important factor for any player's effiency. Of course it's not ideal for any athlete to get less rest over a significant span then those they're going against. As almost all of us agree though, this roster is not ideally constructed. Not only do they feature two 6'2 190 lb ball dominant PGs as their best players, but they feature the smallest collection of players in the rotation since I started watching in the 70s... they have the smallest rotation in the league. Opponents regularly successfully post up their SG on Dame or Ant. With such decided lack of size, to maximizing their positives Portland has to be both constantly pushing the pace and featuring the most complimentry blend of talents. For me these are the biggest reason to bring Ant off the bench. As it's been consistently demonstrated when Dame's been out with injury, Ant is much more effective with the ball then off & the Blazers are certainly more effecient on both ends with at least one of their two PGs are playing. While we can debate their ceiling as a pairing, the Blazers are not good when both Ant and Dame are off the court. Thats my impression, I'm sure someone here knows of websites that detail various lineups that could confirm or refute this.

While less then ideal, I truly don't believe this hypothetical role would tax a 23 year old stud like Ant much more then his current one. That and much more has been done umpteen times before when training/nutrician we're nearly what they are today and the grind of daily NBA life was much harder. For instance it wasn't until the mid-90s that the Blazers got their own private plane and I'm pretty sure they were the first team to do so. Bringing him off the bench would give him more run in his best role and the team their most potent lineups.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

It's all good. The softy comment is funny to me. I'd like to see how he'd respond to some of the things I get to read online. I assume he'd handle it better since I'm so soft, but given his responses in here, I'm not sure!

I find it funny that you still think you've a leg to stand on with your silly soft views. In the past 9 games, Oregon's 23 year old PG Will Richardson has played all but 7 minutes of the last 9 games. Forget 18 minutes straight, for all intents and purposes he's playing the entire 40 every game. He was so completely gassed in his last game vs OSU that he scored the final 6 of the game. Somehow if anything his efficiency has gone up as reflected by his highest PER & 2nd highest TS% of his 5 years at Oregon. Of course Altman would rather not be playing him so much, but the other options aren't good so he's doing whats best for the team and letting the young man run.

https://www.oregonlive.com/ducks/20...is-keeping-oregon-mens-basketball-afloat.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/will-richardson-1.html

STOMP