OT Is James Harden the best PG in the NBA?

[Mediocre Man]

Discuss

 

[BonesJones]

Lmao. He's not a PG. He's a SG that is so ball dominant that he brings the ball up every time.

 

[SIeepwalker]

No.

/thread

 

[julius]

Based on stats alone, he is distributing the ball much better than I think most people anticipated. I haven't seen him play, so I don't know if he still exhibits matador defense.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I'd let any player of mine with a 34+ PER call himself anything he wanted. That being said, his assist/TO is 89/37=2.4, which is better than Lillard's 1.7.

However, there are 2 sides of the ball, and he's not guarding PGs. Since most people think Magic Johnson was PG (who also did not guard PGs), you could argue that Harden is a PG, too.

Of course, I'd rather have Lillard.

 

[Tunchi]

Lmao. He's not a PG. He's a SG that is so ball dominant that he brings the ball up every time.

Dude averages crazy assists numbers

 

[SlyPokerDog]

In virtual reality he's a center.

And he sucks.

 

[Hobbesarable]

Three names come to mind when I think about best point guard in the NBA:

Dame
Curry
CP3

 

[e_blazer]

He must be good, he sure touches his balls alot.

Calvin Watkins-ESPN Staff Writer:

"James Harden touched the ball a season-high 110 times in the Rockets victory over the Wizards on Monday night. Harden scored 32 points and added 15 assists. In the last two games, Harden has possessed the ball 218 times."

With that many touches, he must not only be the best PG in the NBA, but the best at the four other positions he's playing at the same time.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think the line between "point guard" and "shooting guard" has blurred, and that there are simply "guards" in the NBA. We've got guys like Harden and Westbrook dropping tons of assists.... and yet they are two of the most selfish players in the league. They handle the ball almost exclusively. Meanwhile someone like Curry plays off the ball quite a bit, which might make him more of a shooting guard by the old standards.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I get the selfish comments, but Harden is a pretty fantastic scorer, he should be taking a lot of shots.

 

[TBpup]

If it's just a numbers game, Harden is putting up video game like numbers.

Assists: (Not all of the leaders but some interesting names of note)
Harden--- - 12.7
Westbrook - 9.9
Paul --------- 8.6
Rodriguez -- 7.7
Frazier ------ 7.1
D. Green ---- 7.3
Conley ------- 6.7
Lin ----------- 6.1
Giannis ----- 6.0
Dellavedova 5.6
De Russell - 4.9
Lillard ------ 4.9

Lillard is tied for 28th and only 1/10 of an assist ahead of recently cut Lance Stephenson and 2/10 ahead of Joakim Noah. There are 5 players listed ahead of Damian that play a position besides PG. All but 2 players on the list average LESS minutes per game so the Per/36 numbers put Damian in an even lower position. Dame is 28th in assists but #9 on that list in terms of TOs so while he isn't averaging very many assists, he is turning the ball over at quite a high rate among those assist leaders.

Now it's easy to say Dame is a 'scoring PG' as he is currently 2nd in the league in scoring and that comes after a 19 point game against the Grizzlies. But for arguments sake, Harden is #3 in scoring while being #1 in assists. Dame is #2 in scoring and tied for 28th in assists. Westbrook is 4th in scoring and 3rd in assists. Curry is 7th in scoring and 21st in assists. Even Isaiah Thomas is #9 in scoring and tied for 10th in assists.

Many of those are very high usage players with the ball in their hands a lot just like Dame but are getting their teammates involved at a much higher rate. When players like Westbrook, Harden and James are getting more than twice the assists without giving up the scoring numbers, I think you'd like to see Dame Dolla's dimes go up a bit as well.

 

[Blazers Roy]

IDK, i think "Assists" is one of the dumbest stats available.
I think it mainly shows that the offense is old fashioned and centered around one player who holds the ball more then anyone so he either scores or passes it to someone else who scores.

The ball needs to move around and everybody needs to touch the ball if you want to win in today's NBA (unless you have Lebron).

 

[Natebishop3]

If it's just a numbers game, Harden is putting up video game like numbers.

Assists: (Not all of the leaders but some interesting names of note)
Harden--- - 12.7
Westbrook - 9.9
Paul --------- 8.6
Rodriguez -- 7.7
Frazier ------ 7.1
D. Green ---- 7.3
Conley ------- 6.7
Lin ----------- 6.1
Giannis ----- 6.0
Dellavedova 5.6
De Russell - 4.9
Lillard ------ 4.9

Lillard is tied for 28th and only 1/10 of an assist ahead of recently cut Lance Stephenson and 2/10 ahead of Joakim Noah. There are 5 players listed ahead of Damian that play a position besides PG. All but 2 players on the list average LESS minutes per game so the Per/36 numbers put Damian in an even lower position. Dame is 28th in assists but #9 on that list in terms of TOs so while he isn't averaging very many assists, he is turning the ball over at quite a high rate among those assist leaders.

Now it's easy to say Dame is a 'scoring PG' as he is currently 2nd in the league in scoring and that comes after a 19 point game against the Grizzlies. But for arguments sake, Harden is #3 in scoring while being #1 in assists. Dame is #2 in scoring and tied for 28th in assists. Westbrook is 4th in scoring and 3rd in assists. Curry is 7th in scoring and 21st in assists. Even Isaiah Thomas is #9 in scoring and tied for 10th in assists.

Many of those are very high usage players with the ball in their hands a lot just like Dame but are getting their teammates involved at a much higher rate. When players like Westbrook, Harden and James are getting more than twice the assists without giving up the scoring numbers, I think you'd like to see Dame Dolla's dimes go up a bit as well.

The tricky thing about assists is that your teammates have to hit their shots.

 

[TBpup]

The tricky thing about assists is that your teammates have to hit their shots.

Believe me, I thought about that but Dame's assist numbers this year are about the same as when he had Aldridge, Batum and Matthews on the team who could hit a shot. So it's not like this year with only CJ, Vonleh and Layman hitting any shots (and only one of those 3 play) that his numbers have dropped....it's just who he is as a PG.

 

[Chris Craig]

No...Close Thread

 

[Natebishop3]

Believe me, I thought about that but Dame's assist numbers this year are about the same as when he had Aldridge, Batum and Matthews on the team who could hit a shot. So it's not like this year with only CJ, Vonleh and Layman hitting any shots (and only one of those 3 play) that his numbers have dropped....it's just who he is as a PG.

He's definitely not a distributor.... which is a little sad, because I think he has good instincts. Why we don't see these kinds of plays anymore, from either of them, is beyond me.

 

[Chris Craig]

Close thread

 

[Strenuus]

No. And never will be.

Nice try.

 

[TBpup]

I'm not sure if it is Dame (and CJ) or the offense. Stotts has it so designed to be so guard oriented. The wings and bigs all run around setting screens and then not really looking to roll hard to the basket. If they do get it, look at how many times they don't look to shoot and instead look to get the ball right back to either guard. When they are open and actually going towards the hoop, so often they are missed because the guards are looking for their own shot.

The lack of aggressively looking for their own scoring opportunities becomes a negative cycle as when they do, they don't get the ball so they stop doing so.

It's just a matter of trying to determine if that is the goal of the offense or just who Dame/CJ are.

 

[Strenuus]

I'm not sure if it is Dame (and CJ) or the offense. Stotts has it so designed to be so guard oriented. The wings and bigs all run around setting screens and then not really looking to roll hard to the basket. If they do get it, look at how many times they don't look to shoot and instead look to get the ball right back to either guard. When they are open and actually going towards the hoop, so often they are missed because the guards are looking for their own shot.

The lack of aggressively looking for their own scoring opportunities becomes a negative cycle as when they do, they don't get the ball so they stop doing so.

It's just a matter of trying to determine if that is the goal of the offense or just who Dame/CJ are.

Goal of the offense.

Dame looks to defer early usually... unless it's dictated.

Dame is a much, much, much more willing passer than CJ... Dame is a willing passer in general... so I don't understand why Dame is being questioned when it's CJ that needs to be questioned.

 

[TBpup]

Goal of the offense.

Dame looks to defer early usually... unless it's dictated.

Dame is a much, much, much more willing passer than CJ... Dame is a willing passer in general... so I don't understand why Dame is being questioned when it's CJ that needs to be questioned.

That is likely because Dame is a PG and CJ is a SG. I agree CJ is mostly a black hole on offense and is much more guilty of missing open teammates. Watch how many times teammates will role/flash/cut and CJ won't even look at them. However, that doesn't let Dame off the hook. As a PG who handle the ball as much as he does. to be averaging under 5 assists per game does seem quite low.

 

[selloutking]

Discuss

 

[THE HCP]

In the pre season he said don't call him a point guard......call him a pointS guard. I love it. He was my number 1 pick, 4th overall in our fantasy league and is averaging the most fantasy points. Hate his flopping, but that dude just gets it done.

 

[blue9]

Steve Nash was generally thought of as the best PG when he was at his peak, despite being a worse defender than Harden. And he averaged half the points and half the rebounds Harden is averaging, and never broke 12 APG. Soooo, if you thought Nash was the best PG (I didn't) then you should probably think Harden is the current best. The numbers he's putting up are unreal.

Of course, following that line of thinking, Westbrook has to be in the conversation, and would be my pick due to playing on both ends of the floor.

 

[THE HCP]

Steve Nash was generally thought of as the best PG when he was at his peak, despite being a worse defender than Harden. And he averaged half the points and half the rebounds Harden is averaging, and never broke 12 APG. Soooo, if you thought Nash was the best PG (I didn't) then you should probably think Harden is the current best. The numbers he's putting up are unreal.

You are too new for me to tell you that this is a great post!

 

[BonesJones]

Dude averages crazy assists numbers

So he's so ball dominant he gets 12 assists per game

Steve Nash was generally thought of as the best PG when he was at his peak, despite being a worse defender than Harden. And he averaged half the points and half the rebounds Harden is averaging, and never broke 12 APG. Soooo, if you thought Nash was the best PG (I didn't) then you should probably think Harden is the current best. The numbers he's putting up are unreal.

Of course, following that line of thinking, Westbrook has to be in the conversation, and would be my pick due to playing on both ends of the floor.

Theres a matter of sample size and him having the ball an historically high amount.

 

[THE HCP]

So he's so ball dominant he gets 12 assists per game

Theres a matter of sample size and him having the ball an historically high amount.

Bro, if you have a player on your team that can get you 12 dimes a game and STILL gets 30+ points......he can have the ball in his hands EVERY possession! Don't let your hate of a player cloud your common sense about the game itself.

 

[blue9]

Theres a matter of sample size and him having the ball an historically high amount.

Yeah, we'll see if he's able to maintain this. But if we're talking about Dame's efficiency being off the charts on a small sample size then that courtesy has to be extended to other players as well. As of this moment, Harden is blasting Nash's numbers out of the water.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Discuss

Har_en?

He's a one-way player.

Based on every argument you've ever made about one-way players (and there have been many), you've negated and answered your own question.