OT Is LeBron James already the greatest of all time?

[PDXFonz]

When you do the juice, you're not even a Real Athlete, let alone belonging on some list of greats.

I don't know about 3-5 years ago... He was definitely more 'ripped' than he is now. Still though that could just be attributed to a change in what he and his dietitians/physical trainers view as optimal for player efficiency and health.

LeBron pisses in a cup just like every other player in the league, and I don't believe that Silver gives LBJ a pass that he doesn't give to other players.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Fuck Lebron James.

 

[Sinobas]

Lebron's first title was on a "super team" that he decided to join...and from what I remember, that group only won once. So that was actually not too impressive.

His victory last year over the Warriors was impressive. And if he can lead his team to a victory over the Warriors, with KD, I think it bumps him up a couple of notches, as far as his legacy.

 

[Minstrel]

Lebron's first title was on a "super team" that he decided to join...and from what I remember, that group only won once. So that was actually not too impressive.

They won twice, back to back. Sandwiched between Finals losses to Texas teams.

 

[KingSpeed]

LeBron didn't join a Heat team that was already winning. Wade, LeBron, and Bosh all decided to take less money to come together and create a championship winning team. And they went to Finals four straight years, winning twice. What Durant has done is much different. He joined a team that won 73 games without him.

 

[Minstrel]

LeBron didn't join a Heat team that was already winning.

Just a technicality, really. He joined a team that he knew was going to have two other superstars. There was no risk-taking, really. He wanted to win titles and, after constantly falling short with an awful Cleveland roster, ensured that he would.

 

[KingSpeed]

Just a technicality, really. He joined a team that he knew was going to have two other superstars. There was no risk-taking, really. He wanted to win titles and, after constantly falling short with an awful Cleveland roster, ensured that he would.

They joined each other. Bosh and Wade could've gone elsewhere too. And they took less money. That's a risk right there. And championship teams usually need three superstars. Why blame him for wanting to win a title and putting together a team to do just that?

 

[Boob-No-More]

They joined each other. Bosh and Wade could've gone elsewhere too. And they took less money. That's a risk right there. And championship teams usually need three superstars. Why blame him for wanting to win a title and putting together a team to do just that?

What team did Michael Jordan join to win his SIX rings?

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

They joined each other. Bosh and Wade could've gone elsewhere too. And they took less money. That's a risk right there.

That's not a risk, that's paying a price for something you want. Buying shoes costs you money, that doesn't make it a risk.

And championship teams usually need three superstars.

Tons of titles were won by teams like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, San Antonio Spurs, etc--teams that didn't have three superstars.

Why blame him for wanting to win a title and putting together a team to do just that?

I don't blame him. But it's deceptive to suggest that he was taking a risk joining the Heat because the Heat weren't champions at the time. He joined a ready-made championship team. That was the entire point. He left the Heat the moment he saw that they were declining away from championship-contention and joined a Cavs team that had one star and was willing to trade their top pick for a second star. James was clearly through with being a part of teams without enough talent and I don't blame him for that.

 

[KingSpeed]

I think Garnett belongs up there with Duncan, honestly. If the Spurs had had Garnett instead of Duncan (assuming KG had begun his NBA career at the same time), I don't think the Spurs would have been less successful.

KG had Ray Allen and Paul Pierce (and Rondo) for 5 years and only won one title.

 

[BigGameDamian]

KG had Ray Allen and Paul Pierce (and Rondo) for 5 years and only won one title.

Better then the Blazers have done.

 

[Rhal]

What team did Michael Jordan join to win his SIX rings?

BNM

He didn't need to join another team since he already had the best SF in the league that was one of the all time best wing defenders and some great roll players in Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright, and John Paxon his first time around and the second 3 peat he had an even better team around him. If your team puts the pieces around you, like OKC, and you dont' win thats one thing but the Cavs didn't do that with Lebron. Just look at the year after Jordan retired the first time the Bulls won 55 games and lost in the second round in a 7 game series where they had the infamous game 5 were pippen was PISSED he didn't get the last shot. The Cavs went from 61 wins to 19.

 

[Minstrel]

KG had Ray Allen and Paul Pierce (and Rondo) for 5 years and only won one title.

Likely would have been two if not for a season-ending injury to Garnett in 2009. Two titles in five years would actually be ahead of the pace that Duncan won titles in San Antonio.

 

[Rhal]

Likely would have been two if not for a season-ending injury to Garnett in 2009. Two titles in five years would actually be ahead of the pace that Duncan won titles in San Antonio.

They also were up 3-2 in the conference finals vs the heat in 2012 but the big 3 just ran out of gas the last two games.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Why not Muggsy Bogues or Spud Webb? They where the shortest players in the NBA.

 

[KingSpeed]

Better then the Blazers have done.

We didn't have KG, Ray Allen, and Pierce.

 

[KingSpeed]

He didn't need to join another team since he already had the best SF in the league that was one of the all time best wing defenders and some great roll players in Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright, and John Paxon his first time around and the second 3 peat he had an even better team around him. If your team puts the pieces around you, like OKC, and you dont' win thats one thing but the Cavs didn't do that with Lebron. Just look at the year after Jordan retired the first time the Bulls won 55 games and lost in the second round in a 7 game series where they had the infamous game 5 were pippen was PISSED he didn't get the last shot. The Cavs went from 61 wins to 19.

Three time champs with Jordan. Out in second round without. That's a big drop off.

 

[mook]

If LeBron goes on to beat Golden State again, I think you have to give it to him as best ever. To beat a team with 73 wins, and then beat it again the following year AFTER they add Durant, well, I love Jordan but there's just nothing comparable in his impressive list of achievements.

I'd also add that for as much shit as LeBron gets for attracting stars around him, Jordan had the best teammate in terms of talent and fit in Pippin, and Jordan had a far better coach. I'd also add that LeBron's varied career is another great example of his achievement. Jordan never made it to the Finals without Pippen or Phil Jackson, he never made it without a legit all-star second banana. LeBron did it with Mo Williams as his best teammate. He made the Finals on three entirely different rosters. Part of his greatness was just his amazing versatility.

It's a dubious comparison to say Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals while LeBron was "only" 3-4. Just in saying that you have to acknowledge that Jordan made it to the Finals one less time than LeBron--two less times if you count this year which seems a near-certainty. If LeBron finishes his career going 3-8 in the Finals, is that really a worse record? He'd have made it to the Finals 11 times, a truly stunning achievement. When's the last time Portland did it once?

LeBron is coming up on his 7th straight Finals run. That is just fucking insane. It'd been 50 years since somebody had gone 6 in a row before he did it last year.

As for scoring titles, no, he's not a match for Jordan's amazing season and game scoring binges, but if James goes on to break Kareem's all time points scored record, well, isn't that a pretty big deal too? He's 7th all time, and will almost certainly pass Jordan's total numbers.

I definitely think it's a fair comparison to make now. I think Jordan still has the edge, but it's a lot closer than I ever thought it'd be. Because LeBron entered the NBA so much younger (and was an absolute physical stud at 16) he has a chance to rack up a lot more stats, adding to his legacy.

 

[Rhal]

The whole rings and 6-0 argument I never understood because it is generally used to devalue going to the finals because if a player went the finals and lost its now a mark against said player. Also if you want to bring rings up then isn't Bill Russell the GOAT and isn't even Robert Horry above Jordan as well since he has 7 rings?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The whole rings and 6-0 argument I never understood because it is generally used to devalue going to the finals because if a player went the finals and lost its now a mark against said player. Also if you want to bring rings up then isn't Bill Russell the GOAT and isn't even Robert Horry above Jordan as well since he has 7 rings?

Jordan gets more credit because he led his teams offensively, not just in scoring, but was a top defender and playmaker as well. Only once in all of his 11 titles was Russell above 3rd in scoring on his own team. Defensive/rebounding monster that he was, he didn't "carry" his teams the way Jordan did.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The whole rings and 6-0 argument I never understood because it is generally used to devalue going to the finals because if a player went the finals and lost its now a mark against said player. Also if you want to bring rings up then isn't Bill Russell the GOAT and isn't even Robert Horry above Jordan as well since he has 7 rings?

Yes, because those who value championships are totally incapable of using common sense.

BNM

 

[Rhal]

Yes, because those who value championships are totally incapable of using common sense.

BNM

I never said that, nor did I imply it.

 

[Rhal]

Jordan gets more credit because he led his teams offensively, not just in scoring, but was a top defender and playmaker as well. Only once in all of his 11 titles was Russell above 3rd in scoring on his own team. Defensive/rebounding monster that he was, he didn't "carry" his teams the way Jordan did.

Jordan, I think, gets so much credit because he is amazing and was the face of the league when it was blowing up nationally and its very easy to go look at his highlights, and the media as well as most fans have always valued offense more then defense. Jordan is the GOAT and I don't think he will ever be displaced because no matter what a player does the media will always bring something else up they have to do to equal Jordan.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I never said that, nor did I imply it.

Yeah, you did imply it by bringing up Robert Horry and suggesting he's "above" Jordan due to his seven rings. No one with a lick of common sense would ever make such a claim. So, why bring it up? It's a ridiculous strawman.

BNM

 

[Rhal]

Yeah, you did imply it by bringing up Robert Horry and suggesting he's "above" Jordan due to his seven rings. No one with a lick of common sense would ever make such a claim. So, why bring it up? It's a ridiculous strawman.

BNM

I was pointing out why just looking at championships never made any sense to me. Using the 6-0 argument, Jordan never lost in the finals, devalues those who made the finals but didn't win the ring. Winning a ring is obviously the best thing you can do but a person shouldn't be punished because he made the finals but his team didn't win. Magics 5-4 record in the finals is more impressive to me then Jordans 6-0. You also can't just say Jordans 6 rings make him the best because Jordan is tied for 10th all time in rings won with the only person in the last 25 years to have more then him being Robert Horry.
I'v seen way to many people use the 6-0 Jordan ring thing as the end all of discussions about who the GOAT is as if that just ends the conversation and I was pointing out why I disliked the use of that.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Interesting--people point out that it took Lebron 33 more playoff games than Jordan to pass him in all-time playoff scoring, but nobody is pointing out that he did it in 118 fewer shot attempts (or 41 fewer possessions if you use factor in free throws).



Everyone knows that Lebron is a better passer and rebounder than Jordan was, but it should also be pointed out that he's also a more efficient scorer.

 

[PDXFonz]

 

[blue9]

He lead the Cavs, before he left, to the finals with one of the worst rosters I have ever seen in the NBA finals. The Cavs never did a great job of surrounding Lebron with great talent and he still found a way to dominate the east every single year.

This is not much of an accomplishment given how shitty the EC has been for his entire career. I'm pretty sure you could replace LBJ's teams with a 7-man roster of RC2 posters and accomplish the same thing.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Wilt was the greatest not-enhanced-by-steroids player of all time.

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