Is there an Atheist?

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And we come full circle, because if you generalise "Atheism" as - a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities; then why the concern of other people's beliefs? Why would an Atheist even care what another believes in?

because coddling false certainty is potentially harmful for humanity. not that i expect christians to start suicide bombing or anything, but religious people who do cause harm are enabled by the social convention of not caring what other people believe religiously.

Let's dumb it down a bit... Let's say I tell you... You don't love your mom. How can you prove you love your mom? Could your idea of love be different than mine? Would that make you wrong if 100 people disagree with you?

my definition of love on an aesthetic level might be different from yours, but your fundamentalist religious belief is not a matter of aesthetics. you are making factual claims about objective reality. yahweh either exists or he doesn't as a matter of fact. evolution either occurred or it didn't. objective reality has no regard for anyone's opinion.
 
because coddling false certainty is potentially harmful for humanity. not that i expect christians to start suicide bombing or anything, but religious people who do cause harm are enabled by the social convention of not caring what other people believe religiously.

WOW, you aren't getting where I'm coming at yet again. You are completely generalizing all of Religion; just as I was trying to show you this generalization on your belief. How are you to judge one belief as being harful, when you have no idea what that belief is. You are completely wrong, and if you actually studied the true teachings of Christianity; you would know that this is far from it.

There are extremists in every belief. An extreme patroit, liberal, conservative. Every belief has it. This is why you can't generalize it. And here you are, being myopic in my belief and fell right into my web. Do you even know why I posted this thread? I don't think you do. But you have proved why I decided to make it. I had a feeling you would come in at this tone.

my definition of love on an aesthetic level might be different from yours, but your fundamentalist religious belief is not a matter of aesthetics. you are making factual claims about objective reality. yahweh either exists or he doesn't as a matter of fact. evolution either occurred or it didn't. objective reality has no regard for anyone's opinion.

No you are force feeding your belief as fact; which you hold just as little claim to actual fact as one that has faith in Religion.
 
Clearly atheists lack a sense of humor. :)
 
because coddling false certainty is potentially harmful for humanity. not that i expect christians to start suicide bombing or anything, but religious people who do cause harm are enabled by the social convention of not caring what other people believe religiously.

That may be true in some cases, but I have found that alienation and hostility between otherwise good, friendly people to be far more dangerous to humans in the short-term. Do you think that you can just forcibly bash the religious belief out of people with a big SCIENCE hammer? Humans just don't work that way.
 
That may be true in some cases, but I have found that alienation and hostility between otherwise good, friendly people to be far more dangerous to humans in the short-term. Do you think that you can just forcibly bash the religious belief out of people with a big SCIENCE hammer? Humans just don't work that way.

Muslims are saying that around the world right now to the U.S. Torture and hi-tech war work in the short term, but they'll make a comeback once we run out of the big bucks.
 
WOW, you aren't getting where I'm coming at yet again. You are completely generalizing all of Religion; just as I was trying to show you this generalization on your belief. How are you to judge one belief as being harful, when you have no idea what that belief is. You are completely wrong, and if you actually studied the true teachings of Christianity; you would know that this is far from it.

i'm sure you're a nice enough person, but the fundamentalist belief you adhere to is in the business of inhibiting science and perpetuating social prejudices. when a bunch of people share this type of belief and act on it, it is overtly harmful.

There are extremists in every belief.

you are one.

I had a feeling you would come in at this tone.

all i stated is fundamentalists and atheists have different motivations. any perceived tone to the conversation beyond that is your doing.



No you are force feeding your belief as fact; which you hold just as little claim to actual fact as one that has faith in Religion.

the covert atheist comedian in you is coming out again.
 
Let me give you witness why I am a Christian... Why I have deep love for Jesus and the Hebrew God. My personal experience.

First off, here is a little about myself. I was born in Portland, Oregon in 1973. My family was extremely rich at the time. In the 70's; my father was making 500k per year. That's no chump change. I was a spoiled rich kid, that was niave about everything. I was racist and felt anyone that wasn't living in Raliegh Park (70's was yuppieville) where below me.

Then my father had a terrible business dealing and we went from that 500k income, to living off my father's disability from his tours in Vietnam. We had a 5,700 sq. ft house, to a 2 bedroom apartment in Clackamas. My brother was heavily addicted to crack coccaine. And what little money we did have, was stolen from him and used for drugs. I remember driving with my father to look for my brother almost every night. My father's arthitis was so bad, his doctor told him to find the dryest place to live, so he can relieve some of his pain. That's when things changed. That's when we moved to Southern California.

We found a place called Lancaster, which had very little to no humidity. My brother was still heavily involved in drugs, and I started getting connected with a "Death Rock" or "Gothic" group of friends. We would do sayonces and try to do witch craft. I became heavily involved in drugs as well and even started dealing. I was 5'8" and weighed 115 lbs. That can tell you just how bad I had it.

Anyways, my brother had this pastor that would keep visiting the house. He would ask him everyday to come to church with him. Of course my brother fought hard. One day my brother had an OD and was sent to the hospital. At the hospital, that pastor kept visiting him. When my brother went to jail (10 times at least), this very same pastor would visit him there. Finally my brother broke and decided to go to church. That was when things seriously changed. See this was when my brother accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. All of us saw the change in his attitude. He was on fire to spread the gospel to the world.

I was still a "Death Rocker" that wore all black, painted nails, drugs, and cared nothing about God; but I saw this change in my brother. I decided to go to church with him; still in my Gothic attire. I remember going and saying to myself "Hey if they can't accept me like this, then they are a total contridiction". Do you know what? They welcomed me everytime I went. Once that happened, I told myself "Hey if they can accept me for who I am, I guess I will listen to what they had to say".

So this was the ONLY thing that sold me. I used my imagination on the story of Salvation and this is what I came up with.

Forget the torture Jesus went through to get to the cross. Forget being nailed to the cross, cause this has happened before and more horrible things happened to other people historically. What got me was that this perfect being that was without sin, had every sin from the first days of Adam to the end of days put on him. I just told myself... OMG, just my own sins put on someone else would be soooo hard to bare. Then I realized, OMG, why would he do this? Why do I even deserve to be forgiven? I realized it was because of LOVE. Because he loved us sooo much that he wanted to give us an out. See when God created man, he wanted to create man with a free will. He wanted man to love him without being forced. I see it like the reward when you truly love someone and that love is returned. It's way more rewarding than being some Rock star or NBA player that gets love just because he's famous or powerful. There is this purity in it. A romance....

So I have this deep love for Jesus and that will never change. The reason is because he changed my life and I will never forget the gift I received. NEVER...
 
That may be true in some cases, but I have found that alienation and hostility between otherwise good, friendly people to be far more dangerous to humans in the short-term.

i'm not intending to be hostile at all. if anything i was trying to be droll. apparently there's some carryover confrontationality from the other threads, but whatever.

Do you think that you can just forcibly bash the religious belief out of people with a big SCIENCE hammer? Humans just don't work that way.

actually humans work exactly that way. it's just a very slow process.
 
Pertinent excerpts from Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World":

"Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of this issue. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others. And, it must be said, some scientists and dedicated skeptics apply this tool as a blunt instrument, with little finesse. Sometimes it looks as if the skeptical conclusion came first, that contentions were dismissed before, not after, the evidence was examined. All of us cherish our beliefs. They are, to a degree, self-defining. When someone comes along who challenges our belief system as insufficiently well-based - or who, like Socrates, merely asks embarrassing questions that we haven't thought of, or demonstrates that we've swept key underlying assumptions under the rug - it becomes much more than a search for knowledge. It feels like a personal assault.

...

In the way that skepticism is sometimes applied to issues of public concern, there is a tendency to belittle, to condescend, to ignore the fact that, deluded or not, supporters of superstition and pseudoscience are human beings with real feelings, who, like the skeptics, are trying to figure out how the world works and what our role in it might be. Their motives are in many cases consonant with science. If their culture has not given them all the tools they need to pursue this great quest, let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped.

Clearly there are limits to the uses of skepticism. There is some cost-benefit analysis which must be applied, and if the comfort, consolation and hope delivered by mysticism and superstition is high, and the dangers of belief comparatively low, should we not keep our misgivings to ourselves? But the issue is tricky. Imagine that you enter a big-city taxicab and the moment you get settled in the driver begins a harangue about the supposed iniquities and inferiorities of another ethnic group. Is your best course to keep quiet, bearing in mind that silence conveys assent? Or is it your moral responsibility to argue with him, to express outrage, even to leave the cab - because you know that every silent assent will encourage him next time, and every vigorous dissent will cause him next time to think twice? Likewise, if we offer too much silent assent about mysticism and superstition - even when it seems to be doing a little good - we abet a general climate in which skepticism is considered impolite, science tiresome, and rigorous thinking somehow stuffy and inappropriate. Figuring out a prudent balance takes wisdom."
 
i'm not intending to be hostile at all. if anything i was trying to be droll. apparently there's some carryover confrontationality from the other threads, but whatever.



actually humans work exactly that way. it's just a very slow process.

I wasn't accusing you of being hostile personally -- only observing that aggressive attacks on deeply personal belief systems often result in hostility between people who may otherwise agree on the vast majority of important questions.

Good luck with that hammer. :)
 
So I have this deep love for Jesus and that will never change. The reason is because he changed my life and I will never forget the gift I received. NEVER...


cool but how do you get from there to necessarily taking genesis so literally your fighting against science? serious question, not intended to be confrontational.
 
only observing that aggressive attacks on deeply personal belief systems often result in hostility between people who may otherwise agree on the vast majority of important questions.

unfortunately deeply personal belief systems tend to directly address the vast majority of important questions.
 
So I have this deep love for Jesus and that will never change. The reason is because he changed my life and I will never forget the gift I received. NEVER...

Thank you for sharing that, seriously. And I'm glad you were able to turn your life around.
 
cool but how do you get from there to necessarily taking genesis so literally your fighting against science? serious question, not intended to be confrontational.

Not to be confrontational, but how is taking Genesis literally necessarily fighting against science?
 
unfortunately deeply personal belief systems tend to directly address the vast majority of important questions.

I guarantee you that there are atheists out there who disagree with just about everything you stand for, whatever your political persuasion may be. Why single out religion as the litmus test of agreement?
 
cool but how do you get from there to necessarily taking genesis so literally your fighting against science? serious question, not intended to be confrontational.

Well it requires a large amount of faith. But sometimes I look at it like humans don't have the brainpower to fully understand what was meant during the days of the Bible. There could be "stories told" that may have the people of those days understand the true meaning. It could be that God's 7 days could be millions of years; to a being that is the "Alpha and Omega". I don't see time even being something that a supreme being even thinks about. People during those days saw no computers, planes, guns, lasers, or even traveled into space.

What I do find extremely interesting is no matter where you are, there is religion. There are people in different parts of the world preaching "Love" as being the supreme power. I believe in this very same thing. I think Love is the most power tool on this planet. More powerful than a nucleur bomb, or the largest of armies.
 
Thank you for sharing that, seriously. And I'm glad you were able to turn your life around.

I am just trying to give you guys the understanding on why I am so passionate about my religion. This is definitely not fake. And it's truly hard to explain.
 
I guarantee you that there are atheists out there who disagree with just about everything you stand for, whatever your political persuasion may be. Why single out religion as the litmus test of agreement?

i don't really stand for much politically, but where i do religious fundamentalism happens to be the primary cause of disagreement.
 
Clearly there are limits to the uses of skepticism. There is some cost-benefit analysis which must be applied, and if the comfort, consolation and hope delivered by mysticism and superstition is high, and the dangers of belief comparatively low, should we not keep our misgivings to ourselves? But the issue is tricky. Imagine that you enter a big-city taxicab and the moment you get settled in the driver begins a harangue about the supposed iniquities and inferiorities of another ethnic group. Is your best course to keep quiet, bearing in mind that silence conveys assent? Or is it your moral responsibility to argue with him, to express outrage, even to leave the cab - because you know that every silent assent will encourage him next time, and every vigorous dissent will cause him next time to think twice? Likewise, if we offer too much silent assent about mysticism and superstition - even when it seems to be doing a little good - we abet a general climate in which skepticism is considered impolite, science tiresome, and rigorous thinking somehow stuffy and inappropriate. Figuring out a prudent balance takes wisdom."

Without opening the mind, I don't think our society would get to where we are today. Regardless it being a "romantic" religious path, or a "Dedicated Scientific" path. Many thought the world was flat until we discovered it. Many thought the Earth was the center of the universe, until we disproved that. Many thought only birds could fly, and we took care of that.

I think human's, sometimes being destructive in the process, seek out meaning. We are problem solvers and get the greatest reward in learning.
 
i don't really stand for much politically, but where i do religious fundamentalism happens to be the primary cause of disagreement.

So you don't think people without religion won't wage war or become extremests? Even in pro-sports, some fans will kill each other because of their dedication of their team. That has absolutely 0 to do with religion. I have seen countries try to exterminate an entire race for the love of their leader. I have seen cities or families wage war with each other just because the other holds a different view on life.
 
Well it requires a large amount of faith. But sometimes I look at it like humans don't have the brainpower to fully understand what was meant during the days of the Bible. There could be "stories told" that may have the people of those days understand the true meaning. It could be that God's 7 days could be millions of years; to a being that is the "Alpha and Omega". I don't see time even being something that a supreme being even thinks about. People during those days saw no computers, planes, guns, lasers, or even traveled into space.


so you do allow room for science to possibly be correct about the age of the earth and evolution to possibly be "part of god's plan" or whatever. that wasn't my impression from the other thread. i apologize for calling you an extremist : )
 
i don't really stand for much politically, but where i do religious fundamentalism happens to be the primary cause of disagreement.

So, you don't care what people do, as long as they don't do it for god?
 
so you do allow room for science to possibly be correct about the age of the earth and evolution to possibly be "part of god's plan" or whatever. that wasn't my impression from the other thread. i apologize for calling you an extremist : )

I 100% believe in science. I would want nothing more than for man to constantly feel the need to learn. I don't think God put us on this planet to become robots. I think he's enjoying our progress. We are a very powerful being. You don't see Monkeys or Dogs building computers or making spaceships. Also, the poetry and story telling is amazing. This is all because of our need to feel. Human life is the best romatic novel ever created. No one can know it all, and we aren't even close to knowing little.
 
So, you don't care what people do, as long as they don't do it for god?


no, i don't care what people believe as long as it doesn't affect me.

i just happen to be most concerned with disagreements that do affect me or the well being of humans in general and stem largely from the certainty associated with religious belief, such as creationism as part of science curriculums (although i know that battle has been pretty much won already), gay marriage, abortion, and also arguably the debate over energy.
 
A lot of atheists are attention whores who look down on those who have a different point of view. They often try to make a specific point to let them know they are an atheist and that they are better than you because they don't believe in the "myths".

Asking them if atheists actually exists annoy them to no end because the whole bane of their existence is being recognized and part of the "enlightened".

Sounds like someone's got some self-esteem issues.

Get help.

http://www.lifescript.com/Soul/Self...ection_Dealing_With_Undesirable_Emotions.aspx
 
It can be fun, but in all honesty, the emotional connection part is exactly why I try NOT to go overboard on teasing and joking. It's hard sometimes to separate an attack on a belief system from an attack on a believer, and (as an agnostic) I don't think any of us have all the answers.

Luckily for you guys, I DO have all the answers.

Sure it's a tough economy right now, but all it takes to live the high life is a little out-of-the-box thinking.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Make_money_without_getting_a_job
 
And we come full circle, because if you generalise "Atheism" as - a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities; then why the concern of other people's beliefs? Why would an Atheist even care what another believes in? Yet, in every religeous debate; they jump at the chance to disprove God. It almost seems a passion in the sense.

I would think if the term "I don't know and I don't care" is applied; then why the need to try and discredit those that have a deep love and admiration for their "God"?

Again, "I don't know and I don't care" apply to agnostics, not Atheists.

Atheists know god does not exist, and most care that others are being deceived and exploited.
 

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