Is Westboro Baptist Church A "Hate Group"?

[MARIS61]

oh im not defending them by any means, they will all rot in hell if there is one

Heaven and hell exist only here on Earth, and hell only exists through the actions of hateful people like these.

 

[jlprk]

I was convinced by the democrats who ranted about the dangers Saddam represented to us.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

Sure you were. You were convinced by Israel. You should read your own links. None of the quotes which were made before Cheney forced the CIA to cook its books about WMDs, fooling a few Democrats, advocated a land war in Iraq.

All of the quotes listed above are substantially correct reproductions of statements made by various Democratic leaders regarding Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's acquisition or possession of weapons of mass destruction. However, some of the quotes are truncated, and context is provided for none of them — several of these quotes were offered in the course of statements that clearly indicated the speaker was decidedly against unilateral military intervention in Iraq by the U.S. Moreover, several of the quotes offered antedate the four nights of airstrikes unleashed against Iraq by U.S. and British forces during Operation Desert Fox in December 1998

 

[Denny Crane]

D'oh.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
-- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

Cheney wasn't in office in 1998, and hadn't been for 5 years.

None of the quotes made before Bush/Cheney. My ass.

 

[jlprk]

Your ass is grass. What I said is correct. That Clinton quote threatening a little air strike doesn't advocate an Army invasion, much less a Bush-scale 10-year war. Hmm, what was the context in Feb 1998...Why did Clinton talk tough...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Scorpion_(Iraq_1998)

A single division. It was a negotiating ploy.

 

[Denny Crane]

You're confused.

Clinton and his diplomats unequivocally declared that Saddam possessed and sought more WMDs.

 

[jlprk]

But they never seriously planned to invade. All they did was enforce the no-fly zone and send one missile, rarely.

The quotes simply backed up the limited action that was already happening. Not until a month or two before Bush invaded did faked intelligence swim in a few morons' heads.

 

[maxiep]

More than some are seeking to classify it as such.

http://news.yahoo.com/petition-urges-white-house-classify-westboro-church-hate-192906943.html

It's no question these people are attention whoring dickweeds. However, the Bill of Rights guarantee their right to be attention whoring dickweeds and I'll defend their right to be attention whoring dickweeds.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i swear to god i was going to post

in before maxie posts "i defend their right etc"

should have lol

 

[Denny Crane]

But they never seriously planned to invade. All they did was enforce the no-fly zone and send one missile, rarely.

The quotes simply backed up the limited action that was already happening. Not until a month or two before Bush invaded did faked intelligence swim in a few morons' heads.

They never planned to invade? They invaded Kuwait. They fought a bloody war with Iran for years. They amassed troops on the border with Saudi Arabia to invade there, too. So there's history, and there's your word for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

 

[jlprk]

No silly, I said that the Clinton administration occasionally had big words, but wouldn't have started a massive stupid land war as Bush did.

 

[Denny Crane]

Clinton bombed Iraq for 3 days and hundreds of thousands of bombs.

During the time Lewinski was scheduled to testify to the special prosecutor. On the very day(s).

So either he lied about the WMDs to divert attention from Lewinski's testimony (something I wouldn't believe, honestly) or he believed there were WMDs. If he believed there were WMDs, then HIS Intel agencies were telling him that.

 

[jlprk]

So you don't believe all those articles leaked by the CIA complaining that Cheney moved CIA people around to get the desired results about WMDs. Cool.

 

[Denny Crane]

Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act, or don't you believe the public and congressional records?

I think there were a dozen reasons they wanted Saddam out. Bush named quite a few, mostly humanitarian, in his State of the Union speech prior to the invasion.

 

[MARIS61]

Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act, or don't you believe the public and congressional records?

I think there were a dozen reasons they wanted Saddam out. Bush named quite a few, mostly humanitarian, in his State of the Union speech prior to the invasion.

Profits for Big Oil is the only reason America goes to war.

 

[Denny Crane]

Profits for Big Oil is the only reason America goes to war.

What oil profits were to be had in Kosovo?

 

[oldguy]

I have never been able to understand people that believe there were no WMD's in Iraq....unless you don't believe that mustard gas and tabun gas are not WMD's. Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds within his own borders in the late 1980's. He also used chemical weapons against the Iranians in the early 1980's.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/chemical_warfare_iran_iraq_war.php

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/kurds/alliance.html

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/kurds/attack.html

How anyone can believe that maniac got rid of all of his stash of chemical weapons is beyond me. He was given, what?, 40 days of warning from when the US said they were coming. More than ample time to move the chemicals to Syria.

We KNOW he had them since the early 80's. Why do some people think that he just gave them up?

Not a big surprise that the world is now worried that Syria is going to use chemical weapons on their own people.

 

[julius]

I think it's part that the whole reason why we went there changed a couple times, and then nothing ever came of it and no one was held responsible for it.

 

[jlprk]

I have never been able to understand people that believe there were no WMD's in Iraq....unless you don't believe that mustard gas and tabun gas are not WMD's. Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds within his own borders in the late 1980's. He also used chemical weapons against the Iranians in the early 1980's...Why do some people think that he just gave them up?

That's before the first war. Between the two wars...

Is it news to you that for years, the UN had hundreds of investigators, including many people handpicked by American intelligence, searching every place in Iraq they could think of, including military bases?

Did you know that once the U.S. took possession of Iraq, a whole new search was done for 2-3 years, this time 100% by Americans, mostly military?

Are you aware that the ideologues who had staked their State Dept and Defense Dept reputations on WMDs were humiliated and then pointed fingers, claiming that everyone had been "fooled," not just them? Where have you been?

 

[MARIS61]

WMD's.

Everybody's got 'em, especially the US, so realize they are a red herring having no real part in the decision to overthrow countries.

Every war the US has started or participated in during my lifetime has been waged solely to steal oil fields and install puppet governments to guarantee US access to oil fields. Our military has been built for this singular purpose.

 

[ABM]

Every war the US has started or participated in during my lifetime has been waged solely to steal oil fields and install puppet governments to guarantee US access to oil fields. Our military has been built for this singular purpose.

I think I remember that movie.....The Drilling Fields.

 

[Denny Crane]

WMD's.

Everybody's got 'em, especially the US, so realize they are a red herring having no real part in the decision to overthrow countries.

Every war the US has started or participated in during my lifetime has been waged solely to steal oil fields and install puppet governments to guarantee US access to oil fields. Our military has been built for this singular purpose.

Vietnam seems like a huge stretch on your part, about it being for oil.

 

[oldguy]

That's before the first war. Between the two wars...

And we didn't depose Saddam and we left instead of finishing the job. We didn't make a search of Iraq before we left, instead we (stupidly) accepted their terms of surrender.

Is it news to you that for years, the UN had hundreds of investigators, including many people handpicked by American intelligence, searching every place in Iraq they could think of, including military bases?

Do you not remember Iraq spinning those investigators around like a bunch of tops? They were denied access to many facilities for extended periods of time. Why do you think Iraq did that? Do you find it inconceivable that they needed time to hide things from the inspectors?

Did you know that once the U.S. took possession of Iraq, a whole new search was done for 2-3 years, this time 100% by Americans, mostly military?

Do you find it inconceivable that they had already shipped the WMD's out of Iraq by the time we 'took possession of Iraq'? We gave them about 40 days, iirc, to take care of business before we invaded.

Are you aware that the ideologues who had staked their State Dept and Defense Dept reputations on WMDs were humiliated and then pointed fingers, claiming that everyone had been "fooled," not just them? Where have you been?

They were fooled by the UN that insisted that we give them over a month to hide the WMD's.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

WMD's.

Everybody's got 'em, especially the US, so realize they are a red herring having no real part in the decision to overthrow countries.

Every war the US has started or participated in during my lifetime has been waged solely to steal oil fields and install puppet governments to guarantee US access to oil fields. Our military has been built for this singular purpose.

Do they have huge oil reserves in Korea? Europe? Granada? Afghanistan? Japan? Were/are the cold wars with Russia/USSR and China over oil?

Putting Iraq (debate-ably) aside, which wars are you talking about?

Go Blazers

 

[jlprk]

And we didn't depose Saddam and we left instead of finishing the job. We didn't make a search of Iraq before we left, instead we (stupidly) accepted their terms of surrender.



Do you not remember Iraq spinning those investigators around like a bunch of tops? They were denied access to many facilities for extended periods of time. Why do you think Iraq did that? Do you find it inconceivable that they needed time to hide things from the inspectors?



Do you find it inconceivable that they had already shipped the WMD's out of Iraq by the time we 'took possession of Iraq'? We gave them about 40 days, iirc, to take care of business before we invaded.



They were fooled by the UN that insisted that we give them over a month to hide the WMD's.

Go Blazers

Your post is an excellent reminder of the propaganda that shouted down the reasoning majority a decade ago, and bankrupted the giant surplus that Bush inherited from Clinton.

Each point is easily refuted in a few words, but you know why your half-truths are irrelevant as well as I do, so I won't waste your time.

 

[oldguy]

Your post is an excellent reminder of the propaganda that shouted down the reasoning majority a decade ago, and bankrupted the giant surplus that Bush inherited from Clinton.

Each point is easily refuted in a few words, but you know why your half-truths are irrelevant as well as I do, so I won't waste your time.

I'm more caught up now, so go ahead and waste my time, I have a little I can spare. You didn't answer any of the questions I asked you, maybe you could do that too?

I don't think you're disputing that we didn't depose Saddam in Desert Storm, right?

Are you disputing that we didn't search Iraq before we left after Desert Storm?

I don't know if you are disputing whether Iraq had WMD's that were used against Iran and the Kurds in his own country, but I provided some backup for my recollection.

I'm guessing that you are disputing that the UN inspectors were spun around like tops by Saddam. (Which they were, for over a freak'n decade.)

If that's what you are disputing, here's some backup (I'll use NPR, so you hopefully won't squawk about right wing sources):

Quotes from www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4996218

So, a month after the US leaves after Desert Storm, the UN passes resolution 687 which requires Saddam to destroy his WMD programs and establishes a UN Commission to monitor compliance.

Resolution 687 Bans Iraq WMD ::: April 3, 1991
Shortly after Iraq is ejected from Kuwait by an international military coalition, the United Nations Security Council passes its first resolution addressing Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) in Iraq. Resolution 687 states that Iraq must destroy its presumed stockpile of WMD, and the means to produce them. It also limits the country's ballistic missile capability. The U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) is established to oversee the inspection, destruction and monitoring of chemical and biological weapons. The International Atomic Energy Agency is asked to document and destroy Iraqi efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Iraq accepts the resolution three days later, agreeing to disclose the extent of its WMD program to inspectors.

In a couple of months, Iraq starts the deception.

Unilateral Destruction ::: Summer 1991
Iraq unilaterally destroys WMD equipment and documentation in an effort at concealment of pre-war work.

Within six months the UN passes a resolution demanding the Iraq comply with the requirements of Resolution 687.

Resolution 715 Demands Compliance ::: Oct. 11, 1991
Responding to Iraq's consistent efforts to interrupt or block inspection teams, the U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 715. The resolution says Iraq must "accept unconditionally the inspectors and all other personnel designated by the Special Commission".

A year later, Iraq is still spinning the inspectors around. Note that they begin destroying Iraq's chemical weapons program, so we know that he had WMD's in 1992.

'Defensive' Biological Weapons ::: May 1992
Iraq officially admits to having had a "defensive" biological weapons program. Weeks later, UNSCOM begins the destruction of Iraq's chemical weapons program. Progress is halted in July when Iraq refuses an inspection team access to the Ministry of Agriculture.

Two years later, same 'ol stuff, Iraq denying access, while accepting Resolution 715, to allow access to their sites.

Denial and Acceptance ::: 1993
Inspections are again held up when Iraq attempts to deny UNSCOM and the IAEA the use of their own aircraft in Iraq. In late 1993 Iraq accepts resolution 715.

Four years after Resolution 687, Saddam's government 'comes clean' about the the bio WMD program AND the nuclear weapons program they had been hiding.

Defection and Revelation ::: Aug. 8, 1995
Hussein Kamel, the former director of Iraq's Military Industrialization Corporation, responsible for all WMD programs, defects to Jordan. As a result, Iraq admits to a far more developed biological weapons programs than it had previously disclosed. Saddam Hussein's government also hands over documents related to its nuclear weapons program and admits to the attempted recovery of highly-enriched uranium.

Six years later, the UN passes ANOTHER resolution calling for Iraq to comply. Then they bail out of Iraq.

Resolution 1115 ::: June 1997
In another effort to end Iraq's interference with inspection teams, the U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 1115. The resolution again calls for Iraq to comply with all previous resolutions regarding WMD. By the end of 1997, a diplomatic stalemate forces UNSCOM to withdraw most of its staff from Iraq.

Seven years later, the UN is promised access to the 'presidential sites' they had wanted to inspect since 1991.

Memorandum of Understanding ::: Feb. 20-23, 1998
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan visits Iraq in an effort secure inspections of what Iraq terms "presidential sites." The U.N. and Iraq agree to support the terms of the newly drafted "Memorandum of Understanding." The Memorandum secures UNSCOM access to eight previously off-limits presidential sites.

Eleven years later, Iraq is jerking the inspection teams around.

'Material Breach' ::: Nov. 8, 2002
U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 says Iraq "remains in material breach of its obligations" under various U.N. resolutions and gives the country "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament" commitments.

So let me re-ask my questions, and maybe pose a couple more:
Please point out the half truths in my previous post. Provide a little backup, if you please.
Is it still news to you that Iraq spun the UN inspectors around by denying access to key facilities they wanted to inspect?
If Iraq had no WMD's, why do you think that they delayed and obstructed the inspectors for over a decade?
Saddam had WMD's in the 80's. Why do you think he destroyed them of his own accord?
If he destroyed the WMD's, why do you think he denied access to key facilities for 11 years?
Is it inconceivable to you that he needed time to conceal his WMD's, for the reason he denied access for so long?
He had about 40 days between the US saying we were coming to kick his ass until we had UN support to do that. Why is it so hard for you to believe that he would ship the WMD's to a place out of reach of the invasion force? Isn't that what you would do, if you were in his place?

As far as using up Clinton's surplus, all I can say is that I hope that, someday, you will see beyond your partisan blindness.

Go Blazers

 

[Sinobas]

If they're not a hate group, then no one is a hate group. They are the poster idiots for what a hate group is.

However, I don't think they should be punished or fined for their beliefs. I also don't think they should have the right to spew their shit in public. There are many outlets for people to express themselves on the internet, or by writing a book etc. If someone wants to pass out pamplets on the street peacefully and not block any sidewalks, that's fine too.

But we arrest people for disorderly conduct, so why should groups like the KKK, Westboro, or black panthers be allowed to spew hate speech over their loud speakers in public?

 

[jlprk]

I don't want to spend a lot of time refuting the now long-proven-to-be falsehoods, so here are quickie answers which everyone knows anyway.

And we didn't depose Saddam and we left instead of finishing the job. We didn't make a search of Iraq before we left, instead we (stupidly) accepted their terms of surrender.

You say that it was a mistake for Big Bush to refrain from starting the giant war which Little Bush later stupidly created. History has proven that War #2 was a monumental error which has permanently destroyed the U.S. Having that stupid war 10 years earlier would have caused the economy to die 10 years earlier.

Do you not remember Iraq spinning those investigators around like a bunch of tops? They were denied access to many facilities for extended periods of time. Why do you think Iraq did that? Do you find it inconceivable that they needed time to hide things from the inspectors?

History has proven that there was nothing to find that they didn't find. So who cares if Saddam rebelled against foreigners oversearching for what he knew he didn't have. Your complaint is like whining about how the Blazers win an NBA championship. Who cares how it was done. What matters is that there were no WMDs to find.

Do you find it inconceivable that they had already shipped the WMD's out of Iraq by the time we 'took possession of Iraq'? We gave them about 40 days, iirc, to take care of business before we invaded.

Inconceivable because what use are weapons if you make them inaccessible. If Iraq gave them to neighbors, then they didn't have them to use. In effect, they didn't exist. Besides, transporting them was impossible since UN investigators were all over the country watching for exactly that, and watching the few scientists who would have to travel with high tech weapons or they'd get broken, with US satellites looking for such events too.

They were fooled by the UN that insisted that we give them over a month to hide the WMD's Go Blazers

What do they call you conspiracists again? Tin foil hats? First time I've ever used the term. Face it, history proved you wrong.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://caseyhendrickson.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/wmds-in-iraq-are-irrefutable/

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/22/w...s-announces-it-intends-move-tons-uranium.html

 

[jlprk]

No materials usable in war other than a couple of molecules left over from War #1 have been found.

http://caseyhendrickson.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/wmds-in-iraq-are-irrefutable/

Your disk jockey source got fired and moved to this hot and sexy radio station.

http://theburningtruth.us/