ISIS encroaches on ultimate prize in Iraq

[lawai'a]

ISIS in iraq is the result of debaathafication. ISIS is an ideology not a foreign army to be defeated by beating the natives into submission through brut force. you cannot kill an idea.

 

[Denny Crane]

There was no ISIS during the occupation. There would not have been one if we never occupied. You suggested Iran would have been emboldened.

ISIS is the product of Obama's surrender.

This.

 

[lawai'a]

This.

ISIS is the result of the power vaccum created by the removal of saddam

 

[Denny Crane]

ISIS is the result of the power vaccum created by the removal of saddam

Created by Obama's surrender. And general bungling of foreign policy just about everywhere, especially Syria.

ISIS was not formed in 2004, but in 2013. That's after the surrender.

A decade after Saddam tried and executed for crimes against humanity.

 

[lawai'a]

an idea takes time to ferment and that ISIS is only a year old is simply not a fact. ISIS in Iraq is fresh and appeals to the disenfranchised sunni mulim of Iraq, because the baath were forbidden , because we removed saddam.(to stop a weapons program that didn't exist)

 

[Denny Crane]

There was no ISIS during the occupation. There would not have been one if we never occupied. You suggested Iran would have been emboldened.

ISIS is the product of Obama's surrender.

This.

You offer no alternative to taking out Saddam, and you only offer opinion in the form of assertions.

The Sunnis both participated in the civil war and diplomacy in trying to form a suitable government.

My guess is that Iraq would have split into 2 or 3 states if we did not occupy. Maybe many of the Shi'ia would have joined Iran, but so what? The Kurds seem rock solid and stable through it all - it is they who are slowing down ISIS at all.

 

[lawai'a]

fact= ISIS is neither large enough or armed well enough to invade Iraq from Syria if saddam is still in power.
without the support of tribal sunni chiefs (who were Baathists predominantly because it was certainly in their best interest, supported by a Baathist-sunni dictator.) ISIS cannot hold territory in Iraq.
fact=fighting a war on two fronts without local sunni support is unsustainable for ISIS(3 if you include Kurdish support for the defense of Iraq.
opinion= us enters fray on saddams side to repel ISIS invasion today, much like our intervention looks in Iraq and Syria.
opinion= saddams predominantly sunni leadership continues to support him and they repel ISIS invasion.
opinion= weakened ISIS devolves in both Syria and Iraq, but never goes completely away. wahadi islam is an ideal that cannot be destroyed.

 

[Denny Crane]

So you would have left Saddam in power and become his ally?

Wow.

Remember, the sanctions killed millions. The no fly zones resulted in Iraq firing missiles at us frequently (an act of war). He used gas on his own people. He got into wars with Iran and Kuwait and threatened the stability of other nations, including Sunni ones like Suadi Arabia.

There was no alternative to taking him out.

 

[lawai'a]

assad still in power in Syria and we are flying missions to take out isis there with his tacit approval. remember two things=
politics makes for strange bedfellows
the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
these two truisms may not be right but raise their heads through out history
another truism as stated earlier= those that will not learn from the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them

 

[Denny Crane]

assad still in power in Syria and we are flying missions to take out isis there with his tacit approval. remember two things=
politics makes for strange bedfellows
the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
these two truisms may not be right but raise their heads through out history
another truism as stated earlier= those that will not learn from the mistakes of history are bound to repeat them

Being friend of the enemy that is a international war criminal only makes us the same. At some point you have to say no.

I do not see how the Iraqi people would like us after we backed Saddam even further as he caused them harm.

 

[lawai'a]

denny, I agree with much about the evil that was saddam, if not all of your points. it is your assertion that it is Obama's fault and that the initial removal of saddam without a viable end game is not the root cause. taking out saddam was inevitable, just wrong tactics. iran has figured out that to influence the region you need to do it politically in order to have sustainable change. I do not in any way agree with their goals but admire their methods. provide for basic human needs and services, advance the living standard of a disenfranchised group, organize said group, power grab in the polical arena. hearts and minds without the threat of brute force. let the targeted group think it is their own idea.

 

[Denny Crane]

I respect a leader who will make peace with our enemies. Obama said he'd talk to Iran, I have no beef with that. Where is it, though?

Sometimes you have to make a terrible choice. In this case, it was to sacrifice tens of thousands to save millions of lives. Millions died under Saddam's regime. We killed about 10,000 soldiers and civilians up until Mission Accomplished. The rest died mostly of ethnic violence between Iraqis. Bombs at Mosques, bombs at police stations where people were lining up to get jobs, etc.

All in all, we saved many many lives.

The tactic W chose was to occupy. The viable end game was occupy until the Iraqis sorted things out. Many mistakes were made, of course. Surrender was the biggest one of all. W committed Obama to stay, and Obama wasn't going to, no matter what the consequences.

To this day, the violence related to ISIS is considerably lower than Saddam or during the occupation.

Maybe it's ISIS that we should be talking to and becoming allies with.

 

[lawai'a]

America elected Obama to end us occupation in Iraq. a war weary nation needed peace. I personally lost a brother inlaw and cousin in Iraq and another cousin is paraplegic due to an ied in afganistan. vet meds and services have left a lot to be desired as well as a realcost in dollars. I was unwilling to continue the occupation because there is no viable endgame in that pscenario. it took the civil rights act 100 years after "the war of northern aggression" as it is still reffered to today for our society to instill equality in the south. I would liken the rise and subsequent power of the KKK to the ISIS in Iraq. the 100 year occupation to the FBI in there attempts to halt the lawless disregard for a peoples civil rights, guaranteed by the constitution in the south. the drag on this nations economy in order to continue the occupation needs to be included. a free Iraq wanted to try us service men under their courts, something that the us military could not allow. 100 years of occupation would still not guarantee an Iraq that wouldn't devolve into 3 separate states.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

America elected Obama to end us occupation in Iraq. a war weary nation needed peace. I personally lost a brother inlaw and cousin in Iraq and another cousin is paraplegic due to an ied in afganistan. vet meds and services have left a lot to be desired as well as a realcost in dollars. I was unwilling to continue the occupation because there is no viable endgame in that pscenario. it took the civil rights act 100 years after "the war of northern aggression" as it is still reffered to today for our society to instill equality in the south. I would liken the rise and subsequent power of the KKK to the ISIS in Iraq. the 100 year occupation to the FBI in there attempts to halt the lawless disregard for a peoples civil rights, guaranteed by the constitution in the south. the drag on this nations economy in order to continue the occupation needs to be included. a free Iraq wanted to try us service men under their courts, something that the us military could not allow. 100 years of occupation would still not guarantee an Iraq that wouldn't devolve into 3 separate states.

I've been enjoying your posts in this thread. Nice job!

 

[Denny Crane]

We still have 50,000 troops in Germany. That's roughly half the size of the number of troops we've used (at once) in Iraq or Afghanistan. We gave about the same number in Japan. We have another 28,500 in South Korea. If you occupy, that's the cost. If the people don't want it, they don't have much of a choice - we elect leaders to do the right thing. Even if the people want to bring back slavery and the leaders won't.

We had all the power in negotiations with the Iraqi government. Obama administration offers the "try US servicemen" as an excuse to bail.

It seems to me that W had the same issue that Lincoln did. He had trouble finding the right general to make the whole thing work.

The strategy changed over time, and eventually they (US) bargained with the Sunni in Anbar (and other places) and the surge. The level of violence went down to the point where civilian deaths in Iraq were about the same for gunshot murders in California (~4000 vs. ~2000). That's for years 2010, 2011, and 2012. Before the surrender. 2009, when Obama took over, the death toll was 5249.

Nobody knows what happens in 100 years, but we do have past evidence that once you occupy and remain (S. Korea, Germany, Japan), the endgame is a pretty good one.

Where you occupy and leave (US South, Iraq), the outcome isn't so good.

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh yeah, where you go in and take out the leader you propped up, it works, too. Like with Noriega.

 

[riverman]

Denny, the Iraq vets I know would take great offense to your claim that Obama or any American surrendered in Iraq. You realize what surrender means I assume. I wonder if you've every been in a war? I have. Vets don't take the word surrender lightly. I get that you don't like Obama, Kerry, whatever but our forces in the region are not running away from anything. We also have virtually no access to military intelligence relating to current events. These guys have a hard enough job as it is without drumming up dissent amongst the US population. As to our civil war, the guys who surrendered did kill the president after the war. The country is still split in half in many ways. I'm proud to be here and like the President or not, he has my support when it comes to our troops.

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny, the Iraq vets I know would take great offense to your claim that Obama or any American surrendered in Iraq. You realize what surrender means I assume. I wonder if you've every been in a war? I have. Vets don't take the word surrender lightly. I get that you don't like Obama, Kerry, whatever but our forces in the region are not running away from anything. We also have virtually no access to military intelligence relating to current events. These guys have a hard enough job as it is without drumming up dissent amongst the US population. As to our civil war, the guys who surrendered did kill the president after the war. The country is still split in half in many ways. I'm proud to be here and like the President or not, he has my support when it comes to our troops.

4,000+ gave their lives. Not so ISIS could take over. I live in a military town. The president is not popular here. Not with his own secy of defense. Even Hillary says he blew it.

I call it surrender when you give up, and don't have the will to fight.

 

[Denny Crane]

Also, it's got nothing to do with liking obama. I like his policies toward gays and immigration. It's fair to call em like I see em.

 

[riverman]

4,000+ gave their lives. Not so ISIS could take over. I live in a military town. The president is not popular here. Not with his own secy of defense. Even Hillary says he blew it.

I call it surrender when you give up, and don't have the will to fight.

So volunteer and go fight. I know many guys who fought there and returned and across the board thank the current administration for getting out of that mess when we did. It was never a surrender. 4 women were assasinated in norther Iraq by ISIS today. Why is it all on the US? We have a coalition and Saudi Arabia is a lot closer to the region. It's not the US against the middle east but rather the world against terrorists. Terrorists know no borders. Remember the IRA? You know how long that went on in Britain? These things don't resolve overnight. I lived in San Diego for quite a spell and was discharged from the military there. I go to vet meetings every Tuesday here. Are you a vet? Have you been in an overseas conflict? You actually think Obama armed all these folks? Arms dealers are everywhere. Some are American, some are Chinese, some are Russian. To blame Obama for Arabs having weapons is well....a stretch

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't fight because it's not my vocation. I know guys here who went over there , both war zones, multiple times. They want to go.

This wasn't Vietnam. These guys said, quote, I believe in the mission. Not 2003, but two or three years ago.

 

[riverman]

I don't fight because it's not my vocation. I know guys here who went over there , both war zones, multiple times. They want to go.

This wasn't Vietnam. These guys said, quote, I believe in the mission. Not 2003, but two or three years ago.

You don't fight because you choose not to but criticize the govt for choosing not to? I fought because there was a draft, it was not my vocation either. If you claim to be disappointed by our quitting there, then maybe you should think about what it means to actually be in their position. Armchair sabre rattling never holds much weight with me. I'm anti war but if you think these conflicts are not Viet Nam, you don't realize they were saying the same thing when we entered Viet Nam in the name of propping up a foreign democracy. At some point, we learned it is a boat full of holes.

 

[Denny Crane]

Sorry. The chicken hawk whine doesn't play with me. Obama didn't serve either.

I was almost old enough to face being drafted myself. I doubt they'd take me at my age.

 

[riverman]

Sorry. The chicken hawk whine doesn't play with me. Obama didn't serve either.

I was almost old enough to face being drafted myself. I doubt they'd take me at my age.

I have no idea what a chicken hawk whine is...but it sounds derogatory. Hope you're not re.fering to me or my opinions. I wouldn't wish war on you or anyone

 

[Denny Crane]

Chicken hawk whine - go serve, you didn't serve so you have no rights, etc.

 

[riverman]

Chicken hawk whine - go serve, you didn't serve so you have no rights, etc.

Well I never said you have no rights. I do think you are sabre rattling from an armchair though and calling Obama a coward who surrendered to terrorists and the war in Iraq. It was in your response to Obama that I suggest you go fight for the cause on whatever level. Obama is also too young to have been eligible for the draft. I never thought war was his true calling either but it's not like he has much choice.

 

[riverman]

I didn't know whether you'd served or not though, it took the chicken whine post to make me aware. Could have just answered the question you know?

 

[Denny Crane]

I was ready to volunteer to fight against Iran in the 1980s.

Obama is sabre rattling from an easy chair in the Oval Office. The point is the military is commanded by civilians.

There was a cause there. There is a new one now. Because of the surrender.

No only for the reasons I stated, but in our haste to tuck tail and run, we didn't even bring home all the stuff we brought over there.

 

[riverman]

I was ready to volunteer to fight against Iran in the 1980s.

Obama is sabre rattling from an easy chair in the Oval Office. The point is the military is commanded by civilians.

There was a cause there. There is a new one now. Because of the surrender.

No only for the reasons I stated, but in our haste to tuck tail and run, we didn't even bring home all the stuff we brought over there.

There you go with the "surrender" schpeil....show me where we surrendered to ISIS or Al Qaida in Iraq...this is misinformation, we never surrendered and Obama has been pretty active with military operations for years..his sabre actually killed a lot of bad guys. You may not like the scope of his military action but that's a different issue. It's like saying Margaret Thatcher surrendered to the IRA....never happened

 

[Denny Crane]

He left before the fighting was over. Thatcher did nothing similar.