ISIS encroaches on ultimate prize in Iraq

[Denny Crane]

Kissinger and Nixon bombed Laos and Cambodia. How was that different than bombing Pakistan or Syria?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I was ready to volunteer to fight against Iran in the 1980s.

I thought Denny Crane joined the Coast Guard Reserves, lol.

 

[riverman]

There you go with the "surrender" schpeil....show me where we surrendered to ISIS or Al Qaida in Iraq...this is misinformation, we never surrendered and Obama has been pretty active with military operations for years..his sabre actually killed a lot of bad guys. You may not like the scope of his military action but that's a different issue. It's like saying Margaret Thatcher surrendered to the IRA....never happened

No country in history brings home all the machines of war. I found a sword and pistol from the civil war when building a barn on my father's farm as a child. Weapons are everywhere, all the time. Afghan villagers all have russian rifles left from the war they abandoned

 

[riverman]

He left before the fighting was over. Thatcher did nothing similar.

That fighting could continue for generations and Thatcher was dealing with terrorism on her home turf...we're talking about a conflict in a foreign country.

 

[riverman]

Kissinger and Nixon bombed Laos and Cambodia. How was that different than bombing Pakistan or Syria?

We blew up shit in France and Holland as well in WW2..probably because the Nazis were there.

 

[riverman]

I was ready to volunteer to fight against Iran in the 1980s.

Obama is sabre rattling from an easy chair in the Oval Office. The point is the military is commanded by civilians.

There was a cause there. There is a new one now. Because of the surrender.

No only for the reasons I stated, but in our haste to tuck tail and run, we didn't even bring home all the stuff we brought over there.

If you had joined in the effort to fight the Iranians in 1980 you would have been side by side with Saddham and Bin Laden as your allies and Reagan armed those guys

 

[jlprk]

Denny is Libertarian, my main exposure to this new Libertarian stuff that became famous about 10 years ago. You see why I'm not one.

They say they want a tiny government, but everything they criticize is about government retreating from being even bigger. Except Ron & Jack Paul. Maybe his name's not Jack, I don't know.

 

[riverman]

Denny is Libertarian, my main exposure to this new Libertarian stuff that became famous about 10 years ago. You see why I'm not one.

They say they want a tiny government, but everything they criticize is about government retreating from being even bigger. Except Ron & Jack Paul. Maybe his name's not Jack, I don't know.

If my last name was Paul, I'd name my male offspring either George, John or Ringo

 

[PDXFonz]

Ironically, in Iraq the ultimate prize is a team party at the local pizzeria.

 

[riverman]

Seriously though, it is a tragedy that most of my life there's constantly been war in the Middle East. I think it starts and ends with Israeli Palestinian friction. Solve that and you calm the region

 

[e_blazer]

Seriously though, it is a tragedy that most of my life there's constantly been war in the Middle East. I think it starts and ends with Israeli Palestinian friction. Solve that and you calm the region

Yeah, I don't see things getting any better over there anytime soon or our involvement coming to an end. Too many people using hatred to gin up support and hold onto power.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[riverman]

Crime of passion or a jealous goat?

 

[PDXFonz]

Why are the signs in English?

 

[riverman]

Why are the signs in English?

Filmed in Canada maybe?

 

[Denny Crane]

Only one person in this thread offered an alternative to taking out Saddam and it was to become Saddam's ally again.

WTF.

Do tell what the alternative really was?

 

[riverman]

Only one person in this thread offered an alternative to taking out Saddam and it was to become Saddam's ally again.

WTF.

Do tell what the alternative really was?

You talking about the 1980 conflict because I can't find anyone saying to join a dead man as an alternative? I did post the fact that the US was in allegiance with Iraq and Bin Laden in 1980 but that's got nothing to do with current events

 

[Denny Crane]

You talking about the 1980 conflict because I can't find anyone saying to join a dead man as an alternative? I did post the fact that the US was in allegiance with Iraq and Bin Laden in 1980 but that's got nothing to do with current events

Look again. I'm talking about 2001-2003.

 

[riverman]

I also proposed concentrating diplomatic efforts to once and for all resolve the Palestinian issue which fuels so many jihadists and is a big recruiting pt for them. Beyond that, trying to make sense out of fantatical fundementalist terrorists is sort of a wasted effort as we've seen again and again. Maybe dropping pork juice water ballons on them would help because you can't get to the promised land smelling like pork according to their beliefs.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...in-tatters-as-militants-march-on-9789230.html

 

[lawai'a]

Only one person in this thread offered an alternative to taking out Saddam and it was to become Saddam's ally again.

WTF.

Do tell what the alternative really was?

denny , I offered an alternative method of regime change in my post # 41

our country seems unable to adopt the long game in regime change. the bes trecent attempts are our attempts to get iran to negotiate a nuclear arms deal. you scoffed at the peace efforts because little progress has happened in the last 2 years of Obama's ovatures. iran understands that Obama won't be in power in 2 more years and the next president may very well do an about face on any strides made. the fact that we were instrumental in the destruction of their elected democracy and istalled our own lackky whom was every bit as tyrannical and oppressive as saddam probably has something to do with it. Persia has been around for millennia, not centuries. perhaps the empires lessons in Greece so long ago have shaped their approach to political influence, regime change. they tend to approach a disaffected, disenfranchised group, provide for basic human services. improve the shitty quality of life that the group endures. the organize at the grass rots community involevement,then enter the political arena without ever holding overt threat of military action. they supply the new political party with experienced advisors and they arm the group. the group, not them then threatens to over throw the powers that be and if necessary revolt to gain control. hearts and minds again, but not the instant gratification of a invasion-occupation.
hamas in gaza and Lebanon are two examples that should be examined. successful regime change ,simpathatic and beholden to you, the advisor and supplier of the arms needed to hold power. hell its good business though probably not as profitable to an outfit like haliburton.

 

[Denny Crane]

denny , I offered an alternative method of regime change in my post # 41

our country seems unable to adopt the long game in regime change. the bes trecent attempts are our attempts to get iran to negotiate a nuclear arms deal. you scoffed at the peace efforts because little progress has happened in the last 2 years of Obama's ovatures. iran understands that Obama won't be in power in 2 more years and the next president may very well do an about face on any strides made. the fact that we were instrumental in the destruction of their elected democracy and istalled our own lackky whom was every bit as tyrannical and oppressive as saddam probably has something to do with it. Persia has been around for millennia, not centuries. perhaps the empires lessons in Greece so long ago have shaped their approach to political influence, regime change. they tend to approach a disaffected, disenfranchised group, provide for basic human services. improve the shitty quality of life that the group endures. the organize at the grass rots community involevement,then enter the political arena without ever holding overt threat of military action. they supply the new political party with experienced advisors and they arm the group. the group, not them then threatens to over throw the powers that be and if necessary revolt to gain control. hearts and minds again, but not the instant gratification of a invasion-occupation.
hamas in gaza and Lebanon are two examples that should be examined. successful regime change ,simpathatic and beholden to you, the advisor and supplier of the arms needed to hold power. hell its good business though probably not as profitable to an outfit like haliburton.

I wrote only one person offered an alternative.

If you complain about the long game, the long game was not surrender.

 

[Denny Crane]

By the way, I agree with you about the Shah. We equally propped up Saddam and even gave him the Intelligence to defeat Iran in their war. That morally obligated us to take him out.

Otherwise I'd mind our own business and let these people a half a world away tend to theirs.

 

[lawai'a]

my complaint would be that we have little continuity in foreign policy making it difficult to play the long game. elections every 2 years where the lack of instant gratification is emphasized, the what I would have done is yelled at the top of their lungs and the hindsight is 20/20 truism(there's that word again!) perhaps cabinet positions like sec of state should be longer term span at least 3/4 pres.election cycles and appointed by the senate,(6 year election cycle, less reactive approach),impeachable by senate. the 60's approach of regime change is only now being looked a in a new way. the sanctions have had an effect on negotiations with iran but many see it as not happening soon enough. complaints about the long game. urgency in keeping the bomb out of iran but we just invaded their neighbor and are threatening to do the same thing there in the reactionary press. others complain about the long game. compromise can't even happen within our own congress, how can we insist others compromise with us?

 

[Denny Crane]

Cabinet positions are appointed, or at least approved by the senate as is. The people appointed may serve for life, as long as the incoming administrations want to keep them. In fact, Obama kept W's secretary of defense (Gates).

If anything, the problem we have is we elect governors of a state like Arkansas who have zero foreign policy chops, or a community organizer from Chicago who has even less. I don't think it's a problem if we stop intervening all over the world. You can be a community organizer and not intervene.

GHW Bush was an elite diplomat. Whatever policies he instituted, the rest have basically continued. Although W started losing the grip we had on excellent relations with Russia and O has lost whatever we had left.

Sanctions affect the people, far less so the regime. Iran is still working on nukes.

There were sanctions on Iraq from 1990 to 2003 (13 years). It was so bad in Iraq during sanctions that the world instituted an oil for food program to try to assure the people got food and medicine. The side effects were the food and medicine didn't make it to the people, we ended up buying the vast bulk of the oil thus contributed to the regime, and Saddam built palaces with the money. On top of it, the UN oil for food program turned out to be uber corrupt, as government tends to be. Infrastructure damaged in the first gulf war was not repaired. There was zero sign that Saddam was on his way out anytime at all.

I think Obama is going to end up putting troops on the ground in both Iraq and Syria. He's undone most of the good done by the previous occupation, and I don't think the same tactics are going to work this time around (surge, negotiate with the Sunnis).

 

[Denny Crane]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/1...troops-as-isis-jihadists-close-in-on-baghdad/

Right on time.

 

[riverman]

The fact that this uprising and power struggle is occuring now kind of questions whether the original occupation did any good to begin with. It was a pretty costly bandaid for the US as well as other coalition forces. Iraq may just splinter and divide as North and South Korea did. One Sunni, one Shi'ia

 

[Denny Crane]

The fact that this uprising and power struggle is occuring now kind of questions whether the original occupation did any good to begin with. It was a pretty costly bandaid for the US as well as other coalition forces. Iraq may just splinter and divide as North and South Korea did. One Sunni, one Shi'ia

How many troops do we have in South Korea? Occupation never really ended there, did it?

How many troops do we have in Germany? How long ago did our occupation there end? I mean really end.

What does this say about the length of the occupation in Iraq and its chance of success?

 

[riverman]

How many troops do we have in South Korea? Occupation never really ended there, did it?

How many troops do we have in Germany? How long ago did our occupation there end? I mean really end.

What does this say about the length of the occupation in Iraq and its chance of success?

When it comes to Iraq, I fear for the worst. This is happening in several countries in Africa.

 

[riverman]

How many troops do we have in South Korea? Occupation never really ended there, did it?

How many troops do we have in Germany? How long ago did our occupation there end? I mean really end.

What does this say about the length of the occupation in Iraq and its chance of success?

We bailed on Taiwan during the Carter years as well. No troops there at all. I'm all for getting out of Korea asap.