It’s Time to Start Over...

[Gronk Brady]

This team is just not good. Lillard and CJ do not play well together. The record, even at .500 seems to be overachieving when you actually watch the games. Dead last in assist and fast break points is not a team you want to go all in on. The stars are the ones responsible... not players getting 15 min every other night

 

[tlongII]

You don’t make any sense... if the surrounding talent is so bad how do you expect to make trades to get better players? Stars are the ones responsible for team play, not the fringe players... you are making excuses for them.

We already have stars. Dame and CJ are stars. What we need is a competent small forward and we need to go big up front with Nurk and Collins. It might be ugly at first, but I firmly believe that is the track we should take to become an elite team. That may mean replacing Stotts as well. He hasn't shown me that he can take the team to another level.

 

[e_blazer]

When your house has a bad roof and is leaking, or when the carpets are worn out, there are solutions other than sticking some TNT in the crawlspace and lighting a match.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

It was an opportunity cost move as he'd lose the FA space in the coming summer. Turner is a horrible fit. He did the same with AC/Moe/Meyers. These weren't players that he kept to be future cornerstones with Dame/CJ-- rather, they were "assets" he intended to keep only to move in future deals. We don't need to surmise this, he actually has said as much. Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out with the reduced cap and these players regressing and Neil has been unable to turn these supposed assets into anything of significance.

The thing that's concerning is Neil seems to be in perpetual asset acquisition mode. When will he actually build a team?

He blew his capspace on Turner because he felt he HAD to. It was an opportunity cost move as he'd lose the FA space in the coming summer. Turner is a horrible fit. He did the same with AC/Moe/Meyers. These weren't players that he kept to be future cornerstones with Dame/CJ-- rather, they were "assets" he intended to keep only to move in future deals. We don't need to surmise this, he actually has said as much. Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out with the reduced cap and these players regressing and Neil has been unable to turn these supposed assets into anything of significance.

Nurkic was the first piece that actually complemented these guys skill wise, and he fell into Neil's lap in a trade that was made to create cap flexibility. Let's not suddenly believe that he targeted Nurk and found him as our CotF. And I seriously question whether he feels the same about Collins. Zach screams of a pick that Neil made for another team in a deal that fell through (Indiana, anyone?)

With this history, I'm wary of whether Neil actually knows what it takes to build a playoff team, rather than just going on and on collecting assets for (what he believes is) cheap.

Neil went after Paul George. He went after Melo. He's tried to get stars, but like most of the league, he wasn't able to. This translates into "know how".

The OP has very merits, but he could at least have said Nurk, Collins, and Shabazz....

Like it or not, Dame is our Dirk. Olshey won't be trading him or tanking, even when Dame's 40.

 

[Blazinaway]

We should not trade Dame or CJ. They are elite talents. We need some help at small forward and Stotts needs to play the guys that will be cornerstones in the future. That is not Aminu.

I guess this is where we simply disagree as IMO they are not "elite talents", one is a two-time all star the other has not made an all star team and they are one dimensional offensive "talents" and are at best average on defense if not below average. I like these guys and really do not want to see them go, but we are going nowhere with them and are locked into an ugly and inflexible salary cap situation so our options to change are severely limited. Therefore IMO we are better off getting top value for these guys while we can as they are in their prime and locked into longer term deals.

 

[ripcityboy]

Did you not notice we had our Hootie and the Blowfish lineup out there at the end of the Minny game.
Collins, Layman, Patty, Meyers and Noah

View attachment 17973

I had almost blanked them from my memory until I saw this picture. All those years of Mindfullness training, worthless. Shit!

 

[MickZagger]

Sir, what you are suggesting here, hasn’t succefully taken place in the NBA since the mid to late 80s!!!! The odds are against this working sir.

That would be assuming we get nothing in return for Lillard and McCollum.

 

[MickZagger]

I would trade McCollum for a top 5 pick in this draft. And I'm a huge McCollum fan. But the defensive deficiencies of this backcourt are never going to get us anywhere.

 

[Minstrel]

Tear down projects are rarely quicker routes to greatness than starting with an okay team and trying to find ancillary talent where you can and hoping for one or two to unexpectedly flourish. We just saw how that could happen (though currently it looks like it ultimately did not) with Nurkic. If Nurkic had, in fact, been the star that he was with Portland last year, Portland's situation would look much better.

You take the talent you have and try to make the smartest moves you can going forward. That doesn't preclude trading Lillard or McCollum, or even trading them for younger assets if the net-present value seems higher. But tearing it all down because "this isn't working and we should start over" is silly.

 

[julius]

Because a 20 year old, 23 year old, and 24 year old are finished products? I don’t understand your point... it’s called a rebuild for the future

For starters, Pat is not someone you build around. You barely build adjacent to him.

Secondly, 24 isn't "finished" products, but 26 and 27 is?

 

[Pinwheel1]

I guess this is where we simply disagree as IMO they are not "elite talents", one is a two-time all star the other has not made an all star team and they are one dimensional offensive "talents" and are at best average on defense if not below average. I like these guys and really do not want to see them go, but we are going nowhere with them and are locked into an ugly and inflexible salary cap situation so our options to change are severely limited. Therefore IMO we are better off getting top value for these guys while we can as they are in their prime and locked into longer term deals.

If I was a Laker fan then I would be more inclined to tear it all down because then you can build a young nucleus and speed the process up with a star free agent. Right now they are on year 5 of sucking. In year 6 they will probably start to be mediocre, unless they land the big free agent. If they don't get the super star free agent then the tear down/rebuild will not have worked. We don't have the luxury of relying on getting a big time FA.

Yes the Philly project is looking promising right now. But IMO there are just as many examples of teams who are good, who got their super star without tanking. IMO 1 and done " kids" hurt teams at the top of the lottery, but actually help teams at the bottom of the lottery. Lot of misses at the top while at the same time others can slide because the resume is not complete. Plus you have the unknown international factor. (See Giannis and Gobert etc) They slide as well. We just need a better talent evaluator. Neil is average

 

[BrunoSOC]

Not to soon... Before consider that we need change the system coach

 

[Blazinaway]

If I was a Laker fan then I would be more inclined to tear it all down because then you can build a young nucleus and speed the process up with a star free agent. Right now they are on year 5 of sucking. In year 6 they will probably start to be mediocre, unless they land the big free agent. If they don't get the super star free agent then the tear down/rebuild will not have worked. We don't have the luxury of relying on getting a big time FA.

Yes the Philly project is looking promising right now. But IMO there are just as many examples of teams who are good, who got their super star without tanking. IMO 1 and done " kids" hurt teams at the top of the lottery, but actually help teams at the bottom of the lottery. Lot of misses at the top while at the same time others can slide because the resume is not complete. Plus you have the unknown international factor. (See Giannis and Gobert etc) They slide as well. We just need a better talent evaluator. Neil is average

If you enjoy watching this team play then I can see why you would want to not blow it up, frankly I am not enjoying how this team plays at all and I am the least interested as I have been in the past decade or more, too much hero ball from my viewpoint from both CJ and Dame and a coach that won't or can't change that and a dysfunctional roster that is very hard to change due to a GM's bad choices in the fateful summer of 16.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Did you not notice we had our Hootie and the Blowfish lineup out there at the end of the Minny game.
Collins, Layman, Patty, Meyers and Noah

View attachment 17973

Only our version is Noah and the Bustfish.

BNM

 

[Pinwheel1]

If you enjoy watching this team play then I can see why you would want to not blow it up, frankly I am not enjoying how this team plays at all and I am the least interested as I have been in the past decade or more, too much hero ball from my viewpoint from both CJ and Dame and a coach that won't or can't change that and a dysfunctional roster that is very hard to change due to a GM's bad choices in the fateful summer of 16.

There are definitely some games this year I have not enjoyed watching. But there are also some games in the last 3 years that I have enjoyed. And as someone who has watched 48 years of the NBA, I know how quickly things can change from one year to the next without making massive roster changes. It often just takes one new player or coach.

 

[Blazinaway]

There are definitely some games this year I have not enjoyed watching. But there are also some games in the last 3 years that I have enjoyed. And as someone who has watched 48 years of the NBA, I know how quickly things can change from one year to the next without making massive roster changes. It often just takes one new player or coach.

I am certainly willing/hoping for some changes at the least, but I am not optimistic that it would change much, I think at least one of CJ or Dame needs to go

 

[BonesJones]

Didn't you start a thread exactly like this a couple weeks ago?

 

[Schilly]

I think a pretty significant overhaul could be in order. Duplicity with Dame/CJ/Napier duplicity with Harkless/Aminu duplicity with Ed/Noah/Caleb

 

[BrianFromWA]

If Dame and CJ suck so much and can't win in the NBA paired with another all-star caliber guard, who's going to give up the King's Ransom for them, if they have less than all-star caliber guards?

 

[jlprk]

If Dame and CJ suck so much and can't win in the NBA paired with another all-star caliber guard, who's going to give up the King's Ransom for them, if they have less than all-star caliber guards?

A GM who overrates them, which some do, due to media adoration pushed by breathless Blazer homers.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

I think a pretty significant overhaul could be in order. Duplicity with Dame/CJ/Napier duplicity with Harkless/Aminu duplicity with Ed/Noah/Caleb

Yeah, even if you keep the system in place (crosses fingers that they don't, but YMMV), there's too many of the same player type on the team. In fact, this reminds me a lot of that 2010-11 Clippers team Olshey had crafted.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/2011.html

Baron Davis, Eric Bledsoe, Eric Gordon, (and after Baron Davis, Mo Williams) at guard; Craig Smith, Ike Diogu grinding it out off the bench as forwards; DeAndre Jordan and Chris Kaman at center... lots of young guys, too many of the same kind of guard, too many of the same kind of forward... young talent, but no focus.

 

[stampedehero]

Oh you were serious? Building around Nurk, Collins, and Pat? Well we certainly would not be mediocre.
We would be a fucking laughing stock for 3-4 years. Trading a team's best players when they are still in their prime seldom works. Unless you think our record of drafting players in the lottery has a great track record.

Yes this team needs some changes. But we are already rebuilding with Nurk and Collins...along with Dame and CJ. If you don't think the process is quick enough, then hitting rock bottom will take a hell of lot longer.

Lets get them a SF, and a bench, and see how that works first.

That makes sense. <We are not in this condition.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

After further consideration, the OP is right - Time to move to the RealGM forums.....

 

[Pinwheel1]

I think a pretty significant overhaul could be in order. Duplicity with Dame/CJ/Napier duplicity with Harkless/Aminu duplicity with Ed/Noah/Caleb

Sure but keep Dame, CJ, Nurk, and Collins

Dame is the starter and Napier is the back up. No duplicity IMO
CJ should plays SG only.

We need a starting 2 way SF.......we have none. Yes an overhaul here is needed.

Nurk is the Center. Do not overpay for him, but resign him. Ed is a fine back up. Zach can also help out here in the future. Move Leonard if possible, if not he is fine as 3rd team.... albeit expensive.

Where I agree we have a duplication, is at PF. Collins IMO is the PF of the future. So yes decide on 2 back ups (Aminu and maybe Caleb as he will come cheap) Personally I love Noah off the bench as he a very good rebounder but not sure we can afford him.

The biggest fallacy on this board IMO is that Dame and CJ are too short to play together. I don't buy it. There are ways to get around that. We need their offensive firepower. Just find the right SF. Hell we can always start a bigger SG and bring CJ off the bench if needed...as long as we have the right SF to start. CJ will still get 30 minutes regardless. If you get a steal for CJ ...sure take it, but trading him just to shake things up is not the way to go. Those type of moves are for teams whose players hate each other.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

Sure but keep Dame, CJ, Nurk, and Collins

Dame is the starter and Napier is the back up. No duplicity IMO
CJ should plays SG only.

We need a starting 2 way SF.......we have none. Yes an overhaul here is needed.

Nurk is the Center. Do not overpay for him, but resign him. Ed is a fine back up. Zach can also help out here in the future. Move Leonard if possible, if not he is fine as 3rd team.... albeit expensive.

Where I agree we have a duplication, is at PF. Collins IMO is the PF of the future. So yes decide on 2 back ups (Aminu and maybe Caleb as he will come cheap) Personally I love Noah off the bench as he a very good rebounder but not sure we can afford him.

The biggest fallacy on this board IMO is that Dame and CJ are too short to play together. I don't buy it. There are ways to get around that. We need their offensive firepower. Just find the right SF. Hell we can always start a bigger SG and bring CJ off the bench if needed...as long as we have the right SF to start. CJ will still get 30 minutes regardless. If you get a steal for CJ ...sure take it, but trading him just to shake things up is not the way to go. Those type of moves are for teams whose players hate each other.

Maybe that's why this season hasn't been fun for me. We have young guys showing promise, but expensive guys we're trying to pump value into are playing ahead of them. I'd rather be mediocre or worse and have fun out there than grind out a few more wins and have the entire thing feel dreary and boring. Play the guys you see as your 2020 starters NOW and just go for it... as much as tanking, playing young guys and investing in them was part of the Philly plan.

I'm a little tired of Evan Turner and Aminu starting just because we paid for them. Give me stupid lineups involving Jake Layman or Patty C and Zach Collins starting with Nurk, Dame, and CJ... at least that has entertainment value to me.

 

[Schilly]

Imo if we traded CJ for an equivalent 2way SF, we then slide ET to SG.

But the bigger issue IMO is the refusals to play Aminu at SF and start a real PF at the 4.

 

[SportsAndWhine]

Imo if we traded CJ for an equivalent 2way SF, we then slide ET to SG.

But the bigger issue IMO is the refusals to play Aminu at SF and start a real PF at the 4.

Stotts obviously thinks the SF position is a guard-plus position, so I can see from that perspective keeping Aminu away from it; his ball handling and three point shooting need to be given careful consideration (i.e., he's doing well now but is that because he's being played at PF? Would more ball handling and play making make those get worse?).

 

[tlongII]

Stotts obviously thinks the SF position is a guard-plus position, so I can see from that perspective keeping Aminu away from it; his ball handling and three point shooting need to be given careful consideration (i.e., he's doing well now but is that because he's being played at PF? Would more ball handling and play making make those get worse?).

Stotts knows he needs wins in order to keep his job. It may be that playing Aminu as PF gives the team the best chance to win currently...I don't really know. What I do know is that Aminu is not the future at power forward and Stotts should be playing Collins/Vonleh there.

 

[riverman]

A GM who overrates them, which some do, due to media adoration pushed by breathless Blazer homers.

I take a breath regularly..this is not OKC

 

[SportsAndWhine]

Stotts knows he needs wins in order to keep his job. It may be that playing Aminu as PF gives the team the best chance to win currently...I don't really know. What I do know is that Aminu is not the future at power forward and Stotts should be playing Collins/Vonleh there.

Agreed and agreed.