I've seen Bird, Magic, Jordan, & Kobe play, IMO LeBron is the G.O.A.T

[KingSpeed]

one was the best of a certain era. The other at his. I don’t think you can say one is better than the other because you don’t know how either would of played the game in each other’s time. They are both amazing. It’s tough to say of all time. At this point I just seperate them by different times of ball. The game has changed so much since Jordan’s time.

What about Harden & Curry? Oh and that triple double kid and our boy Dame?

 

[stampedehero]

Jordan is the G.O.A.T but James has entered Jordans' basketball status. Once he retires, his legacy will give him a HOF bust and total stats can declare a winner.
[It means a lot when you italicize a total.]

 

[BonesJones]

The rules today are very different from the 80's and 90's.

Put Jordan in today's game and he would be more dominant

It's a fair argument to say defenders are quicker laterally since the don't have the added benefit of hamdchecking. Players are definitely bigger and more athletic than they used to be, which would make a difference. I don't agree with this statement.

 

[mook]

LeBron is legitimately in the conversation for GOAT, which is a massive statement in itself.

One point I'm always surprised people never bring up is that while Jordan never hopped around to different teams, he also never really achieved anything without Pippen and Phil Jackson. People hold it against LeBron because he moved around, as though it's easy to join a new system and create a contender in the blink of an eye. Jordan just had to rinse and repeat what he did every year once the pieces were in place. Sure, he added the most lethal fade-away post move of all time as he got older, but he never really had to deal with team change the way LeBron did. He didn't have to figure out how to make it work by himself, then make it work with Wade/Bosh, then make it work with Kyrie and Love, then make it work basically by himself again.

I really admire LeBron's ability to excel with such a wide range of Alphas (and no Alphas) around him. If Jordan had taken the same career path LeBron did, I don't think he would've found LeBron's success. I think he would have had some years where his competitive nature would've just alienated the other Alpha(s), kind of like prime Kobe did with Shaq, and shit would've imploded.

Kind of tied to that, it really seems like LeBron will be remembered as a guy who controlled his own destiny. He moved where he wanted to when he wanted to, and success followed him. He didn't put his fate in the hands of a franchise--he did his thing when he wanted to. Jordan spent years complaining about "Crumbs", but he never really took charge beyond the court, except to quit and then un-quit. Given his career as a Wizard and then a GM, it was probably good that he didn't.

You could say Jordan was just being loyal to a franchise, which is true, but the essence of loyalty is to cede control of part of your fate to someone else. Personally, I often value autonomy over loyalty, so maybe that's why I admire LeBron's achievements more.

I'm glad I got to watch both in their primes. LeBron has my vote for GOAT, but I can definitely see how reasonable people could disagree.

 

[illmatic99]

The guy ALWAYS delivers. When was the last time he had a bad game when his team needed him the most? 2011?

 

[Strenuus]

Ummm in 2007 maybe but in 2011-2014, his number 3 "scrub" was HOFer Chris Bosh. And from 2015-2017, the "scrub" was All Star Kevin Love. He has a lot less to work with this year but he hasn't exactly taken them to the Finals. They barely got out of the first round. LeBron jumped on the scoring table after winning a Game 5 in the FIRST ROUND. Take that in.

I never said that I thought he was GOAT, just that it doesn't matter conference or era.

though, I did say "teams" instead of "took a team" ... that's on me.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

I think you're right but you've got to agree that he kind of looks like he's on steroids.

Definitely. To be doing what he is doing at his age it would seem like he is on something.

I would take the primes of other players over Lebron but on the whole it is getting harder to argue against him. Jordan retired twice plus had a lack luster finish with Washington. Lebron got extra years due to coming out from high school and is still competing for championships.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

The rules today are very different from the 80's and 90's.

Put Jordan in today's game and he would be more dominant

Would love to see Harden and Jordan both in their prime square off. Do not think James would get a single MVP vote after MJ trashed him regularly.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Would love to see Harden and Jordan both in their prime square off. Do not think James would get a single MVP vote after MJ trashed him regularly.

 

[handiman]

One point I'm always surprised people never bring up is that while Jordan never hopped around to different teams, he also never really achieved anything without Pippen and Phil Jackson.

It's called building a dynasty internally, as opposed to through high profile free agents. Does anyone hold that against Duncan??

People hold it against LeBron because he moved around, as though it's easy to join a new system and create a contender in the blink of an eye.

That's rather disingenuous, as much as it pains me to say it, as I usually agree with your posts. LeBron handpicked the all-star teammates he wanted to join him, and even then, it took a year of often painful adjustments. He took the easy route to team-building, so he doesn't get a free pass for having to deal with the learning curve of new surroundings.

 

[Reep]

He had a will [to] win that LeBron has never shown.

KS said a lot of key reasons MJ was better, but to me this is the biggest difference. If James had MJ's will to win he would certainly be the GOAT, but he doesn't.

 

[illmatic99]

KS said a lot of key reasons MJ was better, but to me this is the biggest difference. If James had MJ's will to win he would certainly be the GOAT, but he doesn't.

Based on what? Will to win? This dude has been in the finals for 8 consecutive years. No matter how diluted the conference is, that is an unbelievable feat.

What happened to MJ's supposed will to win those two years he took off?

 

[handiman]

What happened to MJ's supposed will to win those two years he took off?

He directed that will toward new challenges, then decided he missed hoops.

MJ basically said he had nothing left to prove after the first three-peat. LeBron still has much to prove when it comes to championships. Getting to the Finals every year doesn't count for much when there's been no deserving competition since Detroit and Boston's runs.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Based on what? Will to win? This dude has been in the finals for 8 consecutive years. No matter how diluted the conference is, that is an unbelievable feat.

What happened to MJ's supposed will to win those two years he took off?

To be fair, losing a parent can devastate someone. Doesn't matter how much they want to win, or don't want to win. I know their we're gambling accusations and such as well, but very few people really know what was going on (I certainly don't).
Also their are varying degrees of how close someone is to their parents.

 

[Reep]

Based on what? Will to win? This dude has been in the finals for 8 consecutive years. No matter how diluted the conference is, that is an unbelievable feat.

What happened to MJ's supposed will to win those two years he took off?

Did you ever watch MJ play in person?

 

[Lanny]

Did you ever watch MJ play in person?

Yep, and he was awesome.

 

[Hoopguru]

Not even close...Jordon made players better around him and was by far the better defender.
If players were able to use their hand and arms like they during Jordan's eras that would make a huge difference in guarding James.
Plus Jordon went up against many more tenacious front lines....

 

[Boob-No-More]

To be fair, losing a parent can devastate someone. Doesn't matter how much they want to win, or don't want to win. I know their we're gambling accusations and such as well, but very few people really know what was going on (I certainly don't).
Also their are varying degrees of how close someone is to their parents.

Interesting point. Remember how LeBron completely wilted in the 2010 playoffs when he found out Delonte West had sex with his mom? People often forget these are real human beings with real emotions. Jordan was close with his father and James is close with his mother. We saw Jordan leave the game for almost two years after his father was murdered. Who knows how James would handle a similar situation. Hopefully, we'll never find out.

BNM

 

[illmatic99]

Did you ever watch MJ play in person?

nope.

Lebron's numbers and record in closeout games is nothing to sneeze at. We're not talking about Darius Miles here.

This guy always shows up. I can count on one hand the number of playoff games when he supposedly got shut down. Most of them coming as a young guy with no help in CLE and once against DAL. Even in that one series where everyone says he quit in 2010 against BOS before his departure to the Heat, he was dominant. 8 straight finals appearances. And has never lost a first round series. He just had 40+ in every win in this previous series in year 15. This is greatness. MJ never had a reign this long.

Also, did Jordan ever face a team as good as GSW?

 

[illmatic99]

Plus Jordon went up against many more tenacious front lines....

Yes, a gimpy Patrick Ewing and an immobile Rik Smits. How intimidating. Guys like Ostertag etc would get tortured by James in the current era.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

Yes, a gimpy Patrick Ewing and an immobile Rik Smits. How intimidating.

90s... weakest era ever.. help together by one player

 

[Boob-No-More]

I've seen all those mentioned in the thread title, plus many more. My opinion: Peak Jordan was better than peak LeBron. LeBron will ultimately have a longer prime, without the interruptions Jordan had. And he joined the NBA at a younger age, so he will end up with more impressive career totals. But if I had to choose one player to build a championship team around, it would be Michael Jordan and it wound't be close.

And before anyone says LeBron is better at 32/33 than Michael was, keep in mind that Jordan averaged 30.4 ppg, 29.6 ppg and 28.7 ppg the years he turned 32, 33 and 34. Also keep in mind he didn't miss a single regular season, or playoff game in any of those three years, averaged 38 MPG during the regular season and over 41 mpg in the playoffs. This year was the first time in LeBeron's career that he played in all 82 regular season games (something Michael did 9 times).

Jordan lead his team to 72, 69 and 62 regular season wins in those three years and three (more) championships. At 32/33, LeBron has led his team to 51 and 50 wins. It is yet ot be seen what he will do at 34.

During the playoffs at 32/33/34, Jordan averaged 30.7, 31.1. and 32.4 ppg and won three (more) Finals MVP awards.

LeBron had a great 1st round series against IND, but keep in mind, it's just the first round. He needs to keep it up for three more rounds and win a title, and then do it two more times, to replicate what Michael Jordan did at a similar age.

BNM

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

LeBron put up 35/10/8 on .553/.353/.818 in the first round, that’s so crazy... damn

 

[Boob-No-More]

Yes, a gimpy Patrick Ewing and an immobile Rik Smits. How intimidating. Guys like Ostertag etc would get tortured by James in the current era.

Wow, worst example of cherry picking ever. Ever heard of guys like Hakeem Olajowan or David Robinson? Jordan played during the golden age of the NBA center. The prime of his career overlapped with Hakeem, The Admiral, Pre-gimpy Patrick Ewing. The first part of his career, guys like Kareem and Moses were still dominant centers and the latter part of Jordan's prime, guys like Shaq and Dikembe Mutombo were patrolling the paint.

The style of play was much more physical, and even 2nd and 3rd tier centers like Laimbeer and Parrish wouldn't hesitate to knock a superstar like Jordan on his ass if he came into the paint.

BNM

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

Wow, worst example of cherry picking ever. Ever heard of guys like Hakeem Olajowan or David Robinson? Jordan played during the golden age of the NBA center. The prime of his career overlapped with Hakeem, The Admiral, Pre-gimpy Patrick Ewing. The first part of his career, guys like Kareem and Moses were still dominant centers and the latter part of Jordan's prime, guys like Shaq and Dikembe Mutombo were patrolling the paint.

The style of play was much more physical, and even 2nd and 3rd tier centers like Laimbeer and Parrish wouldn't hesitate to knock a superstar like Jordan on his ass if he came into the paint.

BNM

Jordan only had to play guys like Hakeem and The Admiral two times a season.

 

[Boob-No-More]

LeBron put up 35/10/8 on .553/.353/.818 in the first round, that’s so crazy... damn

Get back to us when he averages 41/8.4/6.3 in the finals - and his team wins.

Yes, LeBron is amazing. He is doing things no one has done since Jordan, but I think people here are forgetting (or maybe never knew) how great Jordan was.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Jordan only had to play guys like Hakeem and The Admiral two times a season.

And LeBron has had to play guys like Hakeem and Robinson zero times per season.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

90s... weakest era ever.. help together by one player

Right, if you choose to ignore the entire rest of the 1992 (and only true) Dream Team, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Jason Kidd, Dominique Wilkins, Isiah Thomas, etc.

BNM

 

[Lanny]

My personal opinion? It's too hard to tell which one was the most magnificent, Jordan or LeBron. But you could throw in some others like Chamberlain and Jabbar.