I've seen Bird, Magic, Jordan, & Kobe play, IMO LeBron is the G.O.A.T

[KingSpeed]

The guy ALWAYS delivers. When was the last time he had a bad game when his team needed him the most? 2011?

When did Jordan EVER have a bad game when his team needed him most? Never.

 

[KingSpeed]

Based on what? Will to win? This dude has been in the finals for 8 consecutive years. No matter how diluted the conference is, that is an unbelievable feat.

What happened to MJ's supposed will to win those two years he took off?

No. He has been in the finals for 7 consecutive years. And he loses there more than he wins. Jordan would not have settled for that. 6 Finals. 6 Championships.

 

[KingSpeed]

nope.

Lebron's numbers and record in closeout games is nothing to sneeze at. We're not talking about Darius Miles here.

This guy always shows up. I can count on one hand the number of playoff games when he supposedly got shut down. Most of them coming as a young guy with no help in CLE and once against DAL. Even in that one series where everyone says he quit in 2010 against BOS before his departure to the Heat, he was dominant. 8 straight finals appearances. And has never lost a first round series. He just had 40+ in every win in this previous series in year 15. This is greatness. MJ never had a reign this long.

Also, did Jordan ever face a team as good as GSW?

Yes. I think the 93 Suns, 92 Blazers, and 97/98 Jazz would've beaten GSW in playoffs.

 

[KingSpeed]

Wow, worst example of cherry picking ever. Ever heard of guys like Hakeem Olajowan or David Robinson? Jordan played during the golden age of the NBA center. The prime of his career overlapped with Hakeem, The Admiral, Pre-gimpy Patrick Ewing. The first part of his career, guys like Kareem and Moses were still dominant centers and the latter part of Jordan's prime, guys like Shaq and Dikembe Mutombo were patrolling the paint.

The style of play was much more physical, and even 2nd and 3rd tier centers like Laimbeer and Parrish wouldn't hesitate to knock a superstar like Jordan on his ass if he came into the paint.

BNM

To be fair, Jordan never had to face Hakeem or DRob in the Finals. I think that was lucky for him. The Bulls always lost their Texas road trip.

 

[Boob-No-More]

To be fair, Jordan never had to face Hakeem or DRob in the Finals. I think that was lucky for him. The Bulls always lost their Texas road trip.

No they didn't. WTF are you talking about??? Jordan's last three seasons in CHI, the Bulls were 16-2 against the three Texas teams, including 7 - 2 on the road. During those three seasons, they never went worse than 2-1 on the road against the Texas teams. They were 3-0, 2-1, 2-1 on the road and 3-0, 3-0, 3-0 at home against the Texas teams during those three years.

I'm pretty sure they would have beaten all three of them in a 7 game series. They actually turned things up in the post season where Michael Jordan never lost a finals series. He beat the teams that beat the Texas teams.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

No they didn't. WTF are you talking about??? Jordan's last three seasons in CHI, the Bulls were 16-2 against the three Texas teams, including 7 - 2 on the road. During those three seasons, they never went worse than 2-1 on the road against the Texas teams. They were 3-0, 2-1, 2-1 on the road and 3-0, 3-0, 3-0 at home against the Texas teams during those three years.

I'm pretty sure they would have beaten all three of them in a 7 game series. They actually turned things up in the post season where Michael Jordan never lost a finals series. He beat the teams that beat the Texas teams.

BNM

I was thinking of those 90-93 seasons that he struggled in Texas. I remember when I was in college, I hated the Bulls and that is when they would actually lose. Why did you only check the last three did the first three not confirm your argument?

 

[KingSpeed]

I was right:

90-91: lose at Houston and San Antonio
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991_games.html

91-92: lose at Houston and San Antonio
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992_games.html

92-93: lose at Houston and San Antonio
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993_games.html

I knew I knew what I was talking about. Dallas was awful back then but the Bulls always lost in Houston and San Antonio from 90-93.

 

[KingSpeed]

It gets better

89-90: lose at Houston and San Antonio
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1990_games.html

So we're talking Jordan was 0-8 over 4 years

 

[KingSpeed]

1988-89: Jordan lost at Houston too! They won at San Antonio but there was no David Robinson back then.

 

[KingSpeed]

No they didn't. WTF are you talking about??? Jordan's last three seasons in CHI, the Bulls were 16-2 against the three Texas teams, including 7 - 2 on the road. During those three seasons, they never went worse than 2-1 on the road against the Texas teams. They were 3-0, 2-1, 2-1 on the road and 3-0, 3-0, 3-0 at home against the Texas teams during those three years.

I'm pretty sure they would have beaten all three of them in a 7 game series. They actually turned things up in the post season where Michael Jordan never lost a finals series. He beat the teams that beat the Texas teams.

BNM

Well Dallas was garbage so you're right there. But I think they would've struggled against Hakeem and David Robinson during that first threepeat era.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

@KingSpeed Now that we’re talking wins and losses how many times did Jordan lose in the finals? What’s Lebron record in the finals?

Jordan played some really good teams in the finals too, Phoenix, Portland, Seattle, Utah all legit and complete teams. Lebron lost to the Mavericks,
I think it’s a little petty when we go down this deep into who was the “best”, they’ all really good, but they played in different rules in different era’s and chances are no matter which one you go with someone will disagree.

 

[KingSpeed]

@KingSpeed Now that we’re talking wins and losses how many times did Jordan lose in the finals? What’s Lebron record in the finals?

Jordan played some really good teams in the finals too, Phoenix, Portland, Seattle, Utah all legit and complete teams. Lebron lost to the Mavericks,
I think it’s a little petty when we go down this deep into who was the “best”, they’ all really good, but they played in different rules in different era’s and chances are no matter which one you go with someone will disagree.

If you read the thread, you'll see that I firmly support Jordan as the GOAT and it's not close. That doesn't mean LeBron isn't awesome. And I think you already know the answer to your questions so why are you asking me?

 

[KingSpeed]

No. He has been in the finals for 7 consecutive years. And he loses there more than he wins. Jordan would not have settled for that. 6 Finals. 6 Championships.

See, Tortured? Why are you asking me a question that I already answered in this thread? Read before posting.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I was thinking of those 90-93 seasons that he struggled in Texas. I remember when I was in college, I hated the Bulls and that is when they would actually lose. Why did you only check the last three did the first three not confirm your argument?

I only checked the last three because that was more than enough to prove you wrong. So, I didn't bother to go back any further. It wasn't necessary.

I was right:

No, you were not right. You speak in absolutes, using terms like always and never:

The Bulls always lost their Texas road trip.

No, they did not ALWAYS lose their Texas road trip. They won their Texas road trips three consecutive years.

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

See, Tortured? Why are you asking me a question that I already answered in this thread? Read before posting.

I did read it. You were the one going into game by game analysis of how the Bulls did on the Texas road trips in 1990... I'm simply saying that the texas road trips aren't that important. I never claimed you said Jordan wasn't the GOAT or that Lebron is.
I think it's pretty funny you're on here posting how Jordan's team did on their road trips in the regular season when debating who is the greatest basketball player of all time. No one cares what either of those two guys do in the regular season, they care about how many rings they have on their resumes and that was my only point.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

And they're barely a 2nd round team in the East with him. The better question is, how many games would the Cavs have won the past 3 years without him, when they had loaded rosters?

I know kyrie has a new bloom to his rose, but he wasnt exactly leading the cavs to 55 win seasons before lebron got there. Nor was kevin love in Minny.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I know kyrie has a new bloom to his rose, but he wasnt exactly leading the cavs to 55 win seasons before lebron got there. Nor was kevin love in Minny.

But with their powers combined...!

 

[3RA1N1AC]

But with their powers combined...!

View attachment 20466

Maybe. Like i was saying, assign your own significance to it, just interesting, I think most people would assume that without jordan they would have been much worse.

although...

Kwame- power of earth...Kyrie, cuz the earth is flat, sheeple
Wheeler- power of fire...Dion Waiters, cuz soup is hot
Linka- power of wind...Kevin Love, cuz love is fleeting
Gi- power of water...JR Smith, cuz he smokes pcp
Ma-Ti- power of heart (wtf?)... Tristan Thompson, cuz whatever.

Yeah, that team sucks. Maybe i forgot someone.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Kwame- power of earth...Kyrie, cuz the earth is flat, sheeple
Wheeler- power of fire...Dion Waiters, cuz soup is hot
Linka- power of wind...Kevin Love, cuz love is fleeting
Gi- power of water...JR Smith, cuz he smokes pcp
Ma-Ti- power of heart (wtf?)... Tristan Thompson, cuz whatever.

Yeah, that team sucks. Maybe i forgot someone.

This is one of my favorite posts from you ever.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[handiman]

I know kyrie has a new bloom to his rose, but he wasnt exactly leading the cavs to 55 win seasons before lebron got there. Nor was kevin love in Minny.

That's because Kyrie and Kevin were leaders on those under-performing teams, whereas they were perfect as 2nd and 3rd options. Replace LeBron with any borderline all-star that has good leadership qualities, and those Cleveland teams likely still make the Finals the past three years.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

That's because Kyrie and Kevin were leaders on those under-performing teams, whereas they were perfect as 2nd and 3rd options. Replace LeBron with any borderline all-star that has good leadership qualities, and those Cleveland teams likely still make the Finals the past three years.

Oh, well that’s a different conversation altogether. I guess I still disagree though.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No. He has been in the finals for 7 consecutive years. And he loses there more than he wins. Jordan would not have settled for that. 6 Finals. 6 Championships.

Lets spin it another way. Put LBJ on the Bulls team. Surrounded by Pippen, Paxon, Kerr, Cartwright, Rodman, Kucoc,etc.

I think LBJ wins just as many. If not more.

 

[hoopsjock]

Lets spin it another way. Put LBJ on the Bulls team. Surrounded by Pippen, Stockton, Kerr, Cartwright, Rodman, etc.

I think LBJ wins just as many. If not more.

Why does LeBron get to have Stockton on the Bulls?

 

[valo36]

Lets spin it another way. Put LBJ on the Bulls team. Surrounded by Pippen, Stockton, Kerr, Cartwright, Rodman, etc.

I think LBJ wins just as many. If not more.

I personally think LeBron is the better player of the two myself. That said, I do not know if you could switch LBJ and MJ on those Bulls teams mainly because LeBron's style of play is far more similar to Pippen than Jordan's. I do not know if Pippen and LeBron would have meshed together in the same way MJ and Pippen did with both attempting to be the point forward.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Why does LeBron get to have Stockton on the Bulls?

Sorry. Paxon. Not stockton. Not sure why my mind went there. lol. I will edit now. My question still stands though. I left some other great names off the list too. Kukoc?

 

[Cippy91]

I am just here to watch BNM school people

 

[calvin natt]

Its a fun debate or topic, but obviously its splitting hairs. On one side, I lean Lebron because he can guard 5 positions and play most likely 4-5 positions. I mean...if LJ was labeled any position he'd do it, and be good at it. PG? PF? No problem. He's an unreal passer. On the other side, Michael Jordan simply would not lose. He had a super human will to win, that I do not think LeBron has shown. I know Lebron is a 'winner' and highly competitive, obviously...but its hard to argue with Jordan's results. Its a tie.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I personally think LeBron is the better player of the two myself. That said, I do not know if you could switch LBJ and MJ on those Bulls teams mainly because LeBron's style of play is far more similar to Pippen than Jordan's. I do not know if Pippen and LeBron would have meshed together in the same way MJ and Pippen did with both attempting to be the point forward.

Pippen ran alot of point though.

Pippen/Harper/LBJ/Rodman/Cartwright

Or Harper/Pippen/Kucoc(Rodman)/LBJ/Cartwright(or Longley or Wennington)

As I am posting this. I am realizing how many switchable scenarios the Bulls had. LBJ has not had this benefit on any team.

 

[calvin natt]

Lets spin it another way. Put LBJ on the Bulls team. Surrounded by Pippen, Paxon, Kerr, Cartwright, Rodman, Kucoc,etc.

I think LBJ wins just as many. If not more.

Great question - and this is why I think MJ is better. I don't think Jordans teams were all that talented...Pippen,, Rodman and Kukoc and then it gets ugly. Jordan made players better, he got the most out of each player, the role players, the bench, they all did those roles extremely well. Some is on MJ, some on Phil Jackson. I am not sure guys on Lebron's team do their jobs 'extremely well'. Not all his fault, but it appears from my perspective that the surrounding parts to their teams look different - MJs look better than Lebrons.