Jack Morris is no more a HOFer then Pettitte or Mussina

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blgridesagain

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That's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it.

If Morris (and I like Morris and think he was a terrific pitcher) gets elected into the HOF....than Andy and Moose should be there soon afterward.

Either they're all in ...or NONE are in.

And nobody is going to convince me that Kirby Puckett (who is one of my all time favorite players) is more deserving of the HOF than Don Mattingly.

P.S.--- Mattingly batted well over .400 in his one and only post season series...so please don't penalize him for "not winning" a world series.....NOT HIS FAULT!
 
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blgridesagain said:
That's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it.

If Morris (and I like Morris and think he was a terrific pitcher) gets elected into the HOF....than Andy and Moose should be there soon afterward.

Either they're all in ...or NONE are in.

And nobody is going to convince me that Kirby Puckett (who is one of my all time favorite players) is more deserving of the HOF than Don Mattingly.

P.S.--- Mattingly batted well over .400 in his one and only post season series...so please don't penalize him for "not winning" a world series.....NOT HIS FAULT!
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...who said Donnie was being "penalized" or being kept from the HOF because he was never on a championship team? I seriously doubt that has much to do with his exclusion.

...Griffey, Perry, Sutton, Williams, Bagwell, Banks, Killebrew, Sisler, Gwynn, Lajoie, Yaz, Cobb, et al, never won a ring. Not all are in the HOF, but still.


...Donnie Baseball was one of my favs, and had the quickest bat I ever saw, but a WS ring is not what has him on the outside looking in.
 
Funny thing...whenever I hear a "writer/voter" in an interview (talk radio, ect) more times not, they mention Puckett's post season exploits and often point out that "Mattingly's Yankees never won a world series".

'59, ...not sure if you receive, care to listen to, or are unable to listen to NY-centric sports-talk radio in your travels (driving in your car, ect) but what I said appears to be a common thread in the Mattingly/HOF discussion.
Of course they also mention his drop-off in production during his later years as a player.
 
...I do remember vividly the 3-4 year period when Donnie was the best all around player in the game...and from what I recall, that title was given to him by a poll of actual players during that time...that's quite an honor.
...I do think he belongs in the HOF but obviously I'm biased...and I also feel there are some players who are in that maybe were borderline, but I also feel there are some who have been left out of The Hall.

...IMO, if his back had not deserted him he could have easily played another few years and would certainly have gotten into the HOF, as well as getting the WS Title he deserved.

http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=13937747#
 
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Okay here's my take on this, regarding Morris, Mussina & Pettitte. Lets right off the bat take away the CGs & shutout #s because we're talking about different era's where you really can't compare those statistics. BUT......all the rest we can look at,

All three players played 18 seasons.
All three players pitched between 3,300 & 3,800 innings.
All three players had between 2,400 & 2,800 strike outs.
All three players won over 250 games.
All three players finished there careers with ERA's under 4.

So where do they differ? Mussina had the best winning % among the 3. He also had the lowest ERA among the 3, the lowest WHIP among the 3, the most top 5 MVP finishes, & the most wins among the 3. Along with 7 GGs while the other 2 had none. So if I'm picking any one of these 3 Mussina would be my choice..

Now regarding the Puckett/Mattingly HOF debate. There final career are very close. And I mean V E R Y C L O S E.

Games (Puckett 1,783) (Mattingly 1,785)
Runs (Puckett 1,071) (Mattingly 1,007)
Hits (Puckett 2,304) (Mattingly 2,153)
HRs, RBI & BA = (Puckett 207/1,085/318) (Mattingly 222/1,099/307)
OBP, SLG%, OPS = (Puckett .360 / .477 / .837) (Mattingly .358 / .471 / .830)
GGs & A.S. games = (Puckett 6 & 10) (Mattingly 9 & 6)

And as 59 said, Mattingly had an amazing run. Between 1984-1987 (4 years) he averaged 30 / 120 / 336 and between 1984-1989 (6 years) he averaged 26 / 114 / 326. At that pace he was well on his way to cooperstown. as was Puckett had he not been felled by injuries.

Honestly IMO neither one deserved to be in the HOF with the #s they finished with. BUT (and I'm only guessing here) I think what may have put Puckett in as opposed to Mattingly is that in there final season Puckett was still putting up very good #s while Mattingly wasn't. Case in point, in there final 3 seasons............
Puckett averaged 22 / 100 / 309 while Mattingly averaged 10 / 61 / 294
 
Yep,I remember Donnie Baseball very well. Could've easily won a 2nd MVP and he did set or tie 2 different HR records for that time -
Consecutive game HR streak.
Grand Slams (6) in a season.(I believe Haffner has since tied it a couple of years ago)
 
Glavine/ Mussina comparison.

Before I go any further -Of course I absolutely believe Glavine is a "Hall of Famer".
Here goes:

Glavine started 146 more games, had 4298 IP to Moose's 3563 yet Moose had more career shut-outs and 1 more complete game than Galvine.

Moose pitched his entire career in the A.L. (DH league), yet his ERA (3.68) was very comparable to Glavine (3.54).

Glavine is a 300 game winner, Moose won 270 and had 117 more wins than losses.

Moose pitching his entire career in the DH league had a better career WHIP 1.19 - 1.31,
and a lower BAA .255 -.257 than Glavine.

Moose only had one 20 win season (and so did Don Sutton).

How'd I do? lol
 
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blgridesagain said:
Glavine/ Mussina comparison.

Before I go any further -Of course I absolutely believe Glavine is a "Hall of Famer".
Here goes:

Glavine started 146 more games, had 4298 IP to Moose's 3563 yet Moose had more career shut-outs and 1 more complete game than Galvine.

Moose pitched his entire career in the A.L. (DH league), yet his ERA (3.68) was very comparable to Glavine (3.54).

Glavine is a 300 game winner, Moose won 270 and had 117 more wins than losses.

Moose pitching his entire career in the DH league had a better career WHIP 1.19 - 1.31,
and a lower BAA .255 -.257 than Glavine.

Moose only had one 20 win season (and so did Don Sutton).

How'd I do? lol
Click to expand...


You did pretty good kid but may I also add that, Mussina's WHIP was also a lot lower then Glavine. And Glavine walked twice as many batters as Mussina.
 
blgridesagain said:
Glavine/ Mussina comparison.

Before I go any further -Of course I absolutely believe Glavine is a "Hall of Famer".
Here goes:

Glavine started 146 more games, had 4298 IP to Moose's 3563 yet Moose had more career shut-outs and 1 more complete game than Galvine.

Moose pitched his entire career in the A.L. (DH league), yet his ERA (3.68) was very comparable to Glavine (3.54).

Glavine is a 300 game winner, Moose won 270 and had 117 more wins than losses.

Moose pitching his entire career in the DH league had a better career WHIP 1.19 - 1.31,
and a lower BAA .255 -.257 than Glavine.

Moose only had one 20 win season (and so did Don Sutton).

How'd I do? lol
Click to expand...

Rick2583 said:
You did pretty good kid but may I also add that, Mussina's WHIP was also a lot lower then Glavine. And Glavine walked twice as many batters as Mussina.
Click to expand...

He already said that.. lol =) I definitely believe Moose should be in... he'll probably be prejudiced against as he doesn't have 300 wins, but he should be in...

And as it's been said, Glavine pitched 145 games (4 seasons) more than Mussina entirely in the more pitcher friendly NL and had 35 wins more, but also 50 more losses... Look at their 162 game averages over their career, Mussina was 17-10 (0.638 win%) and Glavine was 15-10 (0.600 win%)... Moose did it with 10 of 18 seasons for Baltimore, so that should say something as well...

Moose hit the 20 win mark once, Glavine 5 times, BUT Moose had only 2 loosing seasons... his 1st season (only 12 starts) where he was 1 game below .500 and his last with Baltimore in which he was 4 games under (11-15) on a bad Baltimore team that went 74-88 on the year. To contrast that, Glavine was below the .500 mark 6 times ('87, '88, '90, '03, '04, & '08) between Atl (3) and NYM (3) and at the .500 mark 1 time ('05).
 
Morris should have been in the HOF. Maybe some of you long time fans will remember that Morris and his agent talked to Steinbrenner about getting a deal with the Yankees sometime in the 80's. Anyone remember those shirts sold in the 80's that stated Winfield, Henderson, Mattingly ect, ect. Who needs pitching. Moriis would have been a nice addition,
 
I do remember when The Boss was trying to sign Morris ---
If I remember correctly, Morris (and his agent?) were in NY around Thanksgiving/time and one of the NY Newspapers had the headline - "Morris in town to talk turkey" (with the Boss)
 
Currently there are 10 pitchers with 250 or more wins NOT in the HOF............

Greg Maddox (355-227) 3.16 ERA.....1.143 WHIP, 4 CYA, 18 GGs
Roger Clemens (354-184) 3.12 ERA.....1.173 WHIP, 7 CYA 4,672 SOs
Tom Glavine (305-203) 3.54 ERA..... 1.314 WHIP, 2 CYA
Randy Johnson (303-166) 3.29 ERA.....1.171 WHIP, 5 CYA, 4,875 SOs
Tommy John (288-231) 3.34 ERA.....1.283 WHIP
Jim Kaat (283-237) 3.45 ERA.....1.259 WHIP, 16 GGs
Mike Mussina (270-153) 3.68 ERA.....1.192 WHIP 7 GGs
Jamie Moyer (258-195) 4.22 ERA.....1.322 WHIP
Andy Pettitte (256-153) 3.85 ERA.....1.351 WHIP
Jack Morris (254-186) 3.90 ERA.....1.296 WHIP


And while we're on this subject it's a good thing that 300 wins is automatic for the HOF otherwise there are 2 pitchers IMO that I wouldn't have voted in Don Sutton & Phil Niekro. In 23 seasons Sutton never won ANY major awards. Appeared in only 4 ASGs & won 20 games once. Niekro in 24 seasons was a LITTLE bit better appearing in only 5 ASGs & won 20 games 3 times BUT.....was also a 2 time 20 game loser. JMO

And if Blyleven is in which I also wouldn't have voted in (only 37 games over 500) 287-250 & never won any awards & appeared in only one ASG. Then Tommy John & Jim Kaat should be in. Both had lower WHIP & more 20 win seasons & had better winning %. Again JMO.

Then there are 2 players not even close to 250 wins but should deserve some consideration for the HOF. Pedro Martinez (219-100) 3 time CY winner 7 top 5 CYA voter, 8 time all star. And led the league in WHIP (6 times), Strike outs (3 times), and ERA (5 times).

And to a lesser degree John Smoltz (213-155) Only player to lead the league in wins (24 1996) and saves (55 2002) Also a CYA, over 3,000 strike outs & an 8 time all star.
 
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And if Blyleven is in which I also wouldn't have voted in (only 37 games over 500) 287-250 & never won any awards & appeared in only one ASG. Then Tommy John & Jim Kaat should be in. Both had lower WHIP & more 20 win seasons & had better winning %. Again JMO.

Then there are 2 players not even close to 250 wins but should deserve some consideration for the HOF. Pedro Martinez (219-100) 3 time CY winner 7 top 5 CYA voter, 8 time all star. And led the league in WHIP (6 times), Strike outs (3 times), and ERA (5 times).

And to a lesser degree John Smoltz (213-155) Only player to lead the league in wins (24 1996) and saves (55 2002) Also a CYA, over 3,000 strike outs & an 8 time all star.
__________________________________________________________


Bert Blyleven "Hall of Famer"...... lmao
Bert (blow the lead by allowing a late inning HR) Blyleven,

Very good pitcher, great curveball, good hard fastball, pitched a million years and COMPILED and accumulated numbers .....a lot of strikeouts....but, nah, never the best "in the league".
And for all his career strikeouts, he lead the league just once in Ks.

Pedro, imo, is a Hall of Famer, I have no doubts or reservations.
I think Smoltz was a terrific pitcher...and I also think RON GUIDRY was every bit as good and maybe better.

And Guidry lost a chance at having his fourth 20-win season when he volunteered for bullpen duty late in the 1980(?) season when the Yanks were strapped for relief help.

I know Guidry isn't going to be elected into the HOF, he didn't have a "long" career and won "only" 170 games...but he was a WINNER, and he was a STAR and his win% is amoung the all-time greats.
He too won a Cy Young, and finished 2,3,5,7 and 7 in other years.
5 time Gold Glover, finished 2nd in the MVP and I think he should've won the MVP over Jim Rice in 1978 and oh, by the way, Guidry pitched well and "WON" the famous 1978 playoff game over Rice's Redsox.

Gator also managed to finish 15th,18th,21 and 26th in other MVP decisions.

Very few pitchers have a better World Series and Playoff record than Guidry.
5-2, 3.02 ERA
W.S. 3-1, 1.69 ERA, 1.06 WHIP

Guidry was the complete, real deal. Also one of the very best athletes and team players in the league.
He just didn't hang around for 20 or so years like some other sluggs. lol
 
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...bumping your own thread 5 weeks later?...not sure why, but OK.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...bumping your own thread 5 weeks later?...not sure why, but OK.
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lol

Thanks for the response -
I just wanted to keep the Morris, Pettitte, Mussina and Guidry thing on the the first page for a while longer.

Comparing some Hall of Famers with certain other non-Hall of Famers is one of my favorite baseball discussions.
 
blgridesagain said:
__________________________________

lol

Thanks for the response -
I just wanted to keep the Morris, Pettitte, Mussina and Guidry thing on the the first page for a while longer.

Comparing some Hall of Famers with certain other non-Hall of Famers is one of my favorite baseball discussions.
Click to expand...


Guidry = Sorry but only 170 wins is just just not enough.
Mussina = 270 wins & his career consistantcy should get him in......eventually.
Pettitte = The #s are definitely there but his connection to PEDs will hurt him.
 
Rick2583 said:
Guidry = Sorry but only 170 wins is just just not enough.
Mussina = 270 wins & his career consistantcy should get him in......eventually.
Pettitte = The #s are definitely there but his connection to PEDs will hurt him.
Click to expand...

Agreed
 
Rick2583 said:
Guidry = Sorry but only 170 wins is just just not enough.
Mussina = 270 wins & his career consistantcy should get him in......eventually.
Pettitte = The #s are definitely there but his connection to PEDs will hurt him.
Click to expand...

__________________________________

Rick, I hear ya...and I've already said Guidry isn't going to be elected to the HOF.....yet I still feel he was absolutely one of the very best pitchers of his "era".
 
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blgridesagain said:
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Rick, I hear ya...and I've already said Guidry isn't going to be elected to the HOF.....yet I still feel he was absolutely one of the very best pitchers of his "era".
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After his 1985 season when he went 22-6 (34 years old) & finished 2nd in the CYA voting his career just seemed to collapse. Going only 16-23 over his final 3 seasons. I don't know what happened, honestly I don't remember. But through that 85 season he was 154-68 & well on his way to a HOF career. Shame it ended the way it did.
 
I think he had elbow surgery in 1988 and showed little in spring training of 1989 at the age of 37
 
I always thought Jack Morris should of been in the HOF. 3 Rings with 3 different Teams, a sure fire pitcher, who knew how to win the BIG games.

So I thought, until I read this by T. Verducci. (no I am not a Verducci fan, on the contrary, he to often lacks depth or statistics in his arguments on MLB.TV. Altho' he may of nailed the coffin door shut on Jack's career:

I don't think it's a secret that the sabermetric case for Jack Morris is an especially thin one. *A ranking using WAR has him about the 25th best player on the ballot. *But we hear all of these stats about how much of a workhorse Morris was. *Here is an example from Tom Verducci. *Now it's true that Morris pitched into the 8th the most of his era, but when he did he was actually way below average among of group of pitchers who pitched 100+ outings of that length.

Morris worked deep in the games, but it was largely due to usage rather than effectiveness. * When he went 8 innings he was league average, when he went five innings he was league average. *The chart below shows the number of innings completed by the starter per start. *So the "0" row is not all first innings, but just the games they didn't make it out of the first inning. *Their complete games would be in the 9 row. *Now there is a value to pitching late into games and Morris should be credited by that value, but it certainly looks to me that a big reason Morris went late into games was the astronomical run support he was getting not because he was pitching so much better than the average pitcher. *Note that for outings last one inning or longer Morris' RA is WORSE than league average for every single outing length.
 
A 3 time 20 game winner Morris IMO was never that dominating pitcher & never really had that LIGHTS OUT season. And the only stat that he often led the league in was WP. A good pitcher YES! but a hall of famer NO!.
 
Rick2583 said:
A 3 time 20 game winner Morris IMO was never that dominating pitcher & never really had that LIGHTS OUT season. And the only stat that he often led the league in was WP. A good pitcher YES! but a hall of famer NO!.
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Agreed. I thought Morris was a HOF'er, until he came on the Ballot, and I looked into his history and stats. 3 World Series with 3 teams, is a feat, and he bolstered all 3 staffs. Although, Jack's Stats are far from Hall Worthy.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...to be fair, you could say the same about Moose and Pettitte.
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That is very true but of the 3 of them Morris won less, lost more, had the higher ERA gave up more HRs, more walks & had the lower winning% by far.

Honestly if I had to choose the only one of the 3 that I would put in would be Mussina. JMO.
 
...oh, I agree...of the 3, Moose should definitely be in The Hall.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...oh, I agree...of the 3, Moose should definitely be in The Hall.
Click to expand...

Again of the 3 Mussina had the lower ERA, WHIP, walks, more strike outs. And a higher winning %. Oh & did I mention the 7 GGs?
 
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