Jason Quick On Roy

[magnifier661]

No they didn't. Their usage rates were much higher than Roy's, even when playing w/Shaq.

Wade w/Shaq - Wade's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the league

30.9
32.5
34.7

Bryant w/Shaq - Bryant's rookie - 8th seasons

24.7
27.2
25.2
26.8 - first title
31.8 - second title
30.4 - third title
32.9
29.1 - Shaq traded after season

Roy's career usage

23.0
24.9
27.4 - first playoff appearance
26.6 - after 8 games

As much as I can respect "statistical numbers" that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Just because Kobe or Wade have higher % of usage, doesn't mean they didn't play off the ball during the game. They could very easily have the shot and not necessarily create it. So I disagree with that.

Because I live in L.A. and during those years, I was force fed Laker's basketball. I saw how they player the triangle, and it wasn't with "Isolation by Kobe" unless you count the 4th quarter. In miami, they did the same thing. Shaq would dominate the first 3 quarters, then wade would take over the 4th.

Of course, there were games that Kobe was the focal point, just like wade, but for the most part, this is what I see.

 

[PapaG]

As much as I can respect "statistical numbers" that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Just because Kobe or Wade have higher % of usage, doesn't mean they didn't play off the ball during the game. They could very easily have the shot and not necessarily create it. So I disagree with that.

Because I live in L.A. and during those years, I was force fed Laker's basketball. I saw how they player the triangle, and it wasn't with "Isolation by Kobe" unless you count the 4th quarter. In miami, they did the same thing. Shaq would dominate the first 3 quarters, then wade would take over the 4th.

Of course, there were games that Kobe was the focal point, just like wade, but for the most part, this is what I see.

I'm just relaying the stats that appear to contradict a claim made on the board. If we want to share opinions, I'm fine with that as well.

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

I must have missed Roy saying that he had nothing more to work on in his game.

You don't get that he is questioning why he has to do something? That he has to change who or what he is to make the team better? You didn't get that from that response?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

No they didn't. Their usage rates were much higher than Roy's, even when playing w/Shaq.

Wade w/Shaq - Wade's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the league

30.9
32.5
34.7

Bryant w/Shaq - Bryant's rookie - 8th seasons

24.7
27.2
25.2
26.8 - first title
31.8 - second title
30.4 - third title
32.9
29.1 - Shaq traded after season

Roy's career usage

23.0
24.9
27.4 - first playoff appearance
26.6 - after 8 games

This focus of yours on usage percentage is driving me nuts. Usage percentage and "playing off the ball" are not necessarily connected. If a catch-and-shoot player runs around on offense trying to get open, then shoots immediately upon receiving the ball, he will have a high usage rate without dominating the ball. Case in point--Richard Hamilton.
2001 28.1%
2002 28.6%
2003 31.3%
2004 25.7%
2005 25.1%
2006 27.4%
2007 25.9%
2008 24.5%
2009 27.0%
2010 27.9%

He has a very high usage rate every year, but I don't think anyone would be myopic enough to claim that he dominates the ball. Now, I'm not saying that Roy needs to play exactly like Hamilton does, but there's no reason to think that he can't incorporate a little bit of Rip's game into his own in order to play more effectively with Miller but still get his touches.

 

[RR7]

The downfall in looking at usg% is, it measures how many possesions finished with a player shooting a FG or FT. It does nothing to show that that player created the shot for himself, or did not. A player can be a spot up shooter, and have a high usg% by getting he ball kicked out to him off of a double by someone creating opportunities. So a high usg% doesn't necessarily mean that a player wasn't playing off the ball much, or changed their game.

 

[ABM]

You don't get that he is questioning why he has to do something? That he has to change who or what he is to make the team better? You didn't get that from that response?

Sometimes, PapaG is looking through a different lens than many others. Nonetheless, it's his perspective and he's certainly entitled to it.

 

[SpanishFly]

Why is he being asked to play off the ball?

Why would you want to take the ball out of Roy's hands?

Uh, have you seen (too small dwarf?) our offense stall at key times when we go to the ol Roy ISO? We need to have flexibility so teams cannot concentrate on any one thing.

 

[PapaG]

This focus of yours on usage percentage is driving me nuts. Usage percentage and "playing off the ball" are not necessarily connected. If a catch-and-shoot player runs around on offense trying to get open, then shoots immediately upon receiving the ball, he will have a high usage rate without dominating the ball. Case in point--Richard Hamilton.
2001 28.1%
2002 28.6%
2003 31.3%
2004 25.7%
2005 25.1%
2006 27.4%
2007 25.9%
2008 24.5%
2009 27.0%
2010 27.9%

He has a very high usage rate every year, but I don't think anyone would be myopic enough to claim that he dominates the ball. Now, I'm not saying that Roy needs to play exactly like Hamilton does, but there's no reason to think that he can't incorporate a little bit of Rip's game into his own in order to play more effectively with Miller but still get his touches.

Are you saying that Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade have the same games as Rip Hamilton? The stats do tell the story here, because of the similarities in Bryant's, Wade's, and Roy's games. They handle the ball a lot. There is no denying this. None. Why in the world would anybody want to turn Brandon Roy into Rip Hamilton? He's not a catch-and-release shooter.

Thank you for posting Hamilton's usage rates, but they have literally nothing to do with the usage rates of Roy, Wade, and Bryant.

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

Sometimes, PapaG is looking through a different lens than many others. Nonetheless, it's his perspective and he's certainly entitled to it.

Never said he wasn't. Just trying to get inside his head and thinking.

 

[RR7]

Did you duck, or did it really just go that smoothly right over your head?

 

[PapaG]

The downfall in looking at usg% is, it measures how many possesions finished with a player shooting a FG or FT. It does nothing to show that that player created the shot for himself, or did not. A player can be a spot up shooter, and have a high usg% by getting he ball kicked out to him off of a double by someone creating opportunities. So a high usg% doesn't necessarily mean that a player wasn't playing off the ball much, or changed their game.

That's where actually watching the games comes into play. As I already pointed out, Rip Hamilton's usage rate is not the same as Roy's, Wade's, or Bryant's usage rate.

 

[PapaG]

You don't get that he is questioning why he has to do something? That he has to change who or what he is to make the team better? You didn't get that from that response?

What you said is that Roy thinks that he has nothing to work on in his game. That's not the same thing as Roy wanting to be used in a certain manner.

 

[ABM]

Never said he wasn't. Just trying to get inside his head and thinking.

It was a poor attempt on my part of trying to be politically correct.

 

[hasoos]

I think there is another point to this which has been pretty much unsaid. The elephant in the room is why is Blake playing SG? Our SF has always been more or less a catch and shoot guy who spaces the floor. The SG position is the postion where there is creation of offense. There is a reason they call it shooting guard, that being so that the guy playing it can create offense. I agree with Roy. He should be playing SG, or PG so he can create. In the Blazers current offense, his talent is wasted at the SF position.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Is that really what brackets are for?

absolutely. When quoting somebody and adding words of your own -- usually done to add context -- you always put them in brackets. A set of parentheses around a statement usually indicates that the speaker paused in mid sentence to make a side point or add emphasis of their own.

 

[RR7]

That's where actually watching the games comes into play. As I already pointed out, Rip Hamilton's usage rate is not the same as Roy's, Wade's, or Bryant's usage rate.

But simply posting their usage rate does not prove that they did not change up their games, or play off the ball more.

 

[PapaG]

Did you duck, or did it really just go that smoothly right over your head?

What are you talking about? I can't reply to 5 different people at once. Did you post some sort of "Gotcha"?

 

[PapaG]

But simply posting their usage rate does not prove that they did not change up their games, or play off the ball more.

It's the truest measure that we have, though. Where is your evidence that those guys played off-the-ball more with Shaq?

 

[e_blazer]

Is that really what brackets are for?

I prefer something like, "Why should I (being so great) [This crap is in parentheses because I'm making it up]....

 

[PapaG]

I think there is another point to this which has been pretty much unsaid. The elephant in the room is why is Blake playing SG? Our SF has always been more or less a catch and shoot guy who spaces the floor. The SG position is the postion where there is creation of offense. There is a reason they call it shooting guard, that being so that the guy playing it can create offense. I agree with Roy. He should be playing SG, or PG so he can create. In the Blazers current offense, his talent is wasted at the SF position.

oh brother ...

That horse was beaten to death last night.

 

[RR7]

Can you show where usg% differentiates between playing off the ball and not?

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

I prefer something like, "Why should I (being so great) [This crap is in parentheses because I'm making it up]....

When he compared himself to those other players, it's basically what he said.

 

[PapaG]

Can you show where usg% differentiates between playing off the ball and not?

That's why you watch the games, isn't it? Bryant and Wade are primary ball handlers. Rip Hamilton is not. If you don't understand this basic observation, why are you trying to argue with me?

 

[magnifier661]

When he compared himself to those other players, it's basically what he said.

So it wasn't a direct quote then?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Can you show where usg% differentiates between playing off the ball and not?

It doesn't. Usage rate is just the number of possessions that pass through a player's hands that result in either free throw attempts, shot attempts, assists or turnovers. From Hollinger's formula

Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

 

[ABM]

So it wasn't a direct quote then?

Kind of. Through the filter of one Jason Quick.

 

[RoyIsClutch07]

So it wasn't a direct quote then?

The words in parenthesis are not his own. Which is why they are in parenthesis.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm just relaying the stats that appear to contradict a claim made on the board. If we want to share opinions, I'm fine with that as well.

Yes, we are sharing opinions, because those numbers aren't telling if someone played off the ball or not.

 

[andalusian]

Really, Roy said "I (being so great)"?
I find that difficult to believe. It doesn't sound like any sentence I've ever heard Brandon say.

That's because Roy pronounces "open parenthesis" as "think you are" and "close parenthesis" as "barfo".

Try it now.

 

[PapaG]

It doesn't. Usage rate is just the number of possessions that pass through a player's hands that result in either free throw attempts, shot attempts, assists or turnovers. From Hollinger's formula

I'm willing to admit it isn't the ideal stat for a "playing off of the ball" debate, but it, coupled with actual observation, is the closest I can come up with to say that Brandon Roy's game is more similar to Wade/Bryant than it is to Rip Hamilton.

I'd love to see a stat that calculated how much time per possession a player has the ball in their hands. Does it exist?