Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

[Boob-No-More]

The growing disconnect between Minnesota's ownership and front office has created an impression for opposing teams that a showdown between Taylor and Tom Thibodeau, the Wolves' president of basketball operations and head coach, looms as an increasingly plausible conclusion to Butler's trade request.

This is what I've been sating all along... That the owner has more invested in their young guys and wants to build around them and Thibs wants to win now and build around his guys. Ownership has humored him. They traded away two young players and a high lottery pick for Butler, let Thibs overpay Taj Gibson to get a second Thibs guy on the roster. They let him sign Derrick Rose and Loul Deng, but when it comes to Butler vs. KAT and Wiggins, this is where Taylor draws the line in the sand.

Butler is available and the owner doesn't give a shit about anyone's list but his own. Fuck what Butler wants. Fuck what Thibs wants. There is one thing on Glen Taylor's list: get the most he can for Jimmy Butler and get it now.

BNM

 

[e_blazer]

Play Butler at SF and hope one of Simons/Trent Jr. develop into our SG of the future. We have better prospects at SG than we do at SF

We're counting on Collins and Nurk improving whether we make the trade, or not. So, that part is irrelevant.

BNM

The relevance is whether there’s a significant chance that the Blazers would contend this season so that Butler would be enticed to stay. I don’t think there’s much chance that they make that big of a leap this season. While I am hoping Collins and Nurk are better this year, I think next season is more likely for a big leap, especially for Collins. By then, Butler is likely gone. I’m not a fan of Butler at SF. His size and strength give him an advantage at SG. At SF he’s not that big of an improvement over Mo.

 

[BonesJones]

The relevance is whether there’s a significant chance that the Blazers would contend this season so that Butler would be enticed to stay. I don’t think there’s much chance that they make that big of a leap this season. While I am hoping Collins and Nurk are better this year, I think next season is more likely for a big leap, especially for Collins. By then, Butler is likely gone. I’m not a fan of Butler at SF. His size and strength give him an advantage at SG. At SF he’s not that big of an improvement over Mo.

OKC lost in the 1st round because of a rookie and PG stayed.

 

[Natebishop3]

I will just say this.... with Butler the Wolves were a top 4 team in the west. When he went down they became a shit heap again.

Dame
Butler
Aminu
Collins
Nurk

That (in my opinion) is a team that could win a championship. Obviously it's contingent on Collins developing, but Aminu is best at small forward. That's an exceptionally good defensive team, it's a team that can shoot, and it's a very long and athletic lineup.

 

[BonesJones]

I will just say this.... with Butler the Wolves were a top 4 team in the west. When he went down they became a shit heap again.

Dame
Butler
Aminu
Collins
Nurk

That (in my opinion) is a team that could win a championship. Obviously it's contingent on Collins developing, but Aminu is best at small forward. That's an exceptionally good defensive team, it's a team that can shoot, and it's a very long and athletic lineup.

Why is Aminu best as a SF....?

 

[Natebishop3]

Why is Aminu best as a SF....?

Because when he plays small forward he's a net positive, and when he plays power forward he's a net negative.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17POR10.HTM

 

[Boob-No-More]

The relevance is whether there’s a significant chance that the Blazers would contend this season so that Butler would be enticed to stay. I don’t think there’s much chance that they make that big of a leap this season. While I am hoping Collins and Nurk are better this year, I think next season is more likely for a big leap, especially for Collins. By then, Butler is likely gone. I’m not a fan of Butler at SF. His size and strength give him an advantage at SG. At SF he’s not that big of an improvement over Mo.

Define contend? With Butler, I think the Blazer cement themselves as the rd best team in the West. I also think they are MUCH better equipped for the post season. If GSW or HOU are 100% healthy and playing close to their potential, they would still be favored in a 7-game series, but we all know CP3's history of post season injuries, and he's not getting any younger. We have also see James Harden completely disappear when a series is on the line.

I don't share your opinion that Butler would be a 1-year rental.

Butler's biggest complaint has been playing with rosters full of young guys who don't put in any effort on defense and don't seem to care about winning. In POR, Damian Lillard has taught our young guys well. He has led by example. His work ethic and determination has rubbed off on our young guys. Nurk has worked his ass off the last two summers to get in the best shape of his life and completely transformed our team defense. Zach Collins is also a hard worker who plays hard nosed defense.

The things that pissed Jimmy off in CHI and MIN the past two seasons just don't exist in POR. Plus, we would have his Bird Right's, which would let us offer him a 5th year and bigger annual increaases than any other team.

BNM

 

[e_blazer]

Define contend? With Butler, I think the Blazer cement themselves as the rd best team in the West. I also think they are MUCH better equipped for the post season. If GSW or HOU are 100% healthy and playing close to their potential, they would still be favored in a 7-game series, but we all know CP3's history of post season injuries, and he's not getting any younger. We have also see James Harden completely disappear when a series is on the line.

I don't share your opinion that Butler would be a 1-year rental.

Butler's biggest complaint has been playing with rosters full of young guys who don't put in any effort on defense and don't seem to care about winning. In POR, Damian Lillard has taught our young guys well. He has led by example. His work ethic and determination has rubbed off on our young guys. Nurk has worked his ass off the last two summers to get in the best shape of his life and completely transformed our team defense. Zach Collins is also a hard worker who plays hard nosed defense.

The things that pissed Jimmy off in CHI and MIN the past two seasons just don't exist in POR. Plus, we would have his Bird Right's, which would let us offer him a 5th year and bigger annual increaases than any other team.

BNM

You make some good points, but I’m still hoping there’s a deal that lets the Blazers keep CJ and add another All-Star caliber player instead of just switching out CJ for someone else. I think CJ still has some upside and I don’t want to see it materialize in Minnesota.

 

[BigGameDamian]

I will just say this.... with Butler the Wolves were a top 4 team in the west. When he went down they became a shit heap again.

Dame
Butler
Aminu
Collins
Nurk

That (in my opinion) is a team that could win a championship. Obviously it's contingent on Collins developing, but Aminu is best at small forward. That's an exceptionally good defensive team, it's a team that can shoot, and it's a very long and athletic lineup.

Too bad Neil doesn't see it that way.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Because when he plays small forward he's a net positive, and when he plays power forward he's a net negative.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17POR10.HTM

LOL, small sample size alert. You left out the most important part. Aminu only played 1% of the available minutes at SF last season:



Just to put that in perspective, C.J. played 6x as many minutes at SF as Aminu and had far greater Net-48 production at that spot than Chief:



BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

You make some good points, but I’m still hoping there’s a deal that lets the Blazers keep CJ and add another All-Star caliber player instead of just switching out CJ for someone else. I think CJ still has some upside and I don’t want to see it materialize in Minnesota b

I think peak C.J. was what we saw in 2016-17. He had one of the top shooting seasons in the history of the league. That's going to be hard to beat.

Plus, I see ZERO upside from him on the defensive end. Butler is consistently voted as one of the top 10 defenders in the league (4x 2nd team All Defense). At 6'8" he has the size and strength to guard guys C.J. can't and never will be able to.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Too bad Neil doesn't see it that way.

And you know this because????

You don't think Neil signing two veteran free agent SGs and drafting two more increases the likelihood that he'll trade C.J.? Why the fuck did he add 4 shooting guards to the roster if he plans to keep C.J. long term??? Since you know what he's thinking, please explain.

BNM

 

[e_blazer]

I think peak C.J. was what we saw in 2016-17. He had one of the top shooting seasons in the history of the league. That's going to be hard to beat.

Plus, I see ZERO upside from him on the defensive end. Butler is consistently voted as one of the top 10 defenders in the league (4x 2nd team All Defense). At 6'8" he has the size and strength to guard guys C.J. can't and never will be able to.

BNM

The main growth I am looking for from CJ is improving his passing. Instead of jacking up some of those tough shots in tight coverage situations, dishthe ball to a teammate for an open look. CJ is never going to be the defensive player Butler is, but Butler is never going to be the shooter or ball handler that CJ is.

And the real potential for a one year rental situation scares me off.

 

[BonesJones]

Because when he plays small forward he's a net positive, and when he plays power forward he's a net negative.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17POR10.HTM

Small-sample size. I highly doubt were, in average, 14pts better with him at SF.

 

[Scalma]

And you know this because????

You don't think Neil signing two veteran free agent SGs and drafting two more increases the likelihood that he'll trade C.J.? Why the fuck did he add 4 shooting guards to the roster if he plans to keep C.J. long term??? Since you know what he's thinking, please explain.

BNM

The same reason he created a surplus of bigs a couple seasons ago and didn’t do anything to balance the team out. He sucks at roster management.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

is curry a good perimeter defender?

probably not, but 2/3 of the bench being above average defenders makes for a good defensive bench!

 

[borim69]

Personally I think Jimmy Butler would thrive here. I think that he is probably the only Superstar that does not want to be in with the Lebron crowd or the Warriors crowd. I think he wants to take them down. I think he wants a team with good work ethic. He may be an asshole but I think he is looking for a team to fit in on and not filled with whiney prima donna's. I would take a chance on him only because I think he might stay and he is what this team needs. Would I give up CJ? Only as a last resort I would give up a 2019 and a 2020 Protected 1st round pick

 

[BonesJones]

Personally I think Jimmy Butler would thrive here. I think that he is probably the only Superstar that does not want to be in with the Lebron crowd or the Warriors crowd. I think he wants to take them down. I think he wants a team with good work ethic. He may be an asshole but I think he is looking for a team to fit in on and not filled with whiney prima donna's. I would take a chance on him only because I think he might stay and he is what this team needs. Would I give up CJ? Only as a last resort I would give up a 2019 and a 2020 Protected 1st round pick

Wiggins and KAT are far from whiny prima donnas...

Also, we can't give up first round picks in consecutive years.

 

[Boob-No-More]

The same reason he created a surplus of bigs a couple seasons ago and didn’t do anything to balance the team out. He sucks at roster management.

Please refresh my memory. I can't recall any time in recent years where we've had a surplus of players at the 4 and 5 positions. When was this and who were they?

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Please refresh my memory. I can't recall any time in recent years where we've had a surplus of players at the 4 and 5 positions. When was this and who were they?

BNM

I think its perception. Not vs reality but the perception of amount of players who are actually deserving of NBA minutes.
Like this year they do have a similar number of centers / PF’s as years past but for the most part many of those names we (the collective we), just dont trust.
Just like at times there has been the feeling they dont have any guards! Well most of the time what we’re saying is they dont have any guards who we think can play.

 

[RR7]

Please refresh my memory. I can't recall any time in recent years where we've had a surplus of players at the 4 and 5 positions. When was this and who were they?

BNM

Confused by this as well. Looking through the rosters during Olshey's tenure, and I'm not really seeing when this exactly occurred.

 

[Scalma]

Please refresh my memory. I can't recall any time in recent years where we've had a surplus of players at the 4 and 5 positions. When was this and who were they?

BNM

Was during Plumlees tenure. We had a surplus of bigs and needed help at SF. The thought back then was Olshey would use that surplus to eventually acquire one. Instead he traded Plumlee for another big.

We had

Plumlee
Kaman
Davis
Meyers
Vonleh
Alexander

And Aminu was playing a ton of PF as well.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The relevance is whether there’s a significant chance that the Blazers would contend this season so that Butler would be enticed to stay. I don’t think there’s much chance that they make that big of a leap this season. While I am hoping Collins and Nurk are better this year, I think next season is more likely for a big leap, especially for Collins. By then, Butler is likely gone. I’m not a fan of Butler at SF. His size and strength give him an advantage at SG. At SF he’s not that big of an improvement over Mo.

Keep CJ in the deal and they contend this year.

 

[Natebishop3]

LOL, small sample size alert. You left out the most important part. Aminu only played 1% of the available minutes at SF last season:

View attachment 22423

Just to put that in perspective, C.J. played 6x as many minutes at SF as Aminu and had far greater Net-48 production at that spot than Chief:

View attachment 22424

BNM

So if he played 1% of his time at small forward, and 50% of his time at power forward....... where did he play the other 49% of his time?

If we want a more fair comparison, we can look at his numbers when he was a full time small forward back during his first season in Portland (or at least he played 32% of his time at small forward compared to only 26% at power forward)

So during that season, he played better at power forward, BUT if you just take the raw stats from that season at small forward and compare them to the raw stats of him playing mostly power forward, we have:

SF PER - 12.5
OP SF PER - 13.9

PF PER - 13.8
OP PF PER - 18.4

It still pencils out that he plays better at small forward. He's a net negative of -4.6 PER as a power forward. He's only a net negative of -1.4 PER as a small forward. A better question is why is he so much worse at power forward now than back in 2015 when he played with Plumlee?

 

[Natebishop3]

This is also interesting

CJ is a net negative of -2.6 when you look at his on vs off the court numbers, but he outplays his opponent on average, so their "simple rating" is a +1.8.

Aminu is a +5.5.

Harkless is a -3.5

 

[Natebishop3]

Also interesting, Butler has a higher Simple Rating than Dame. +14.2

AND a higher net production of On/Off the court of +13.6 compared to Dame's +11.3.

Dame has a higher production net though.

Butler's numbers are pretty fucking staggering. If you put him with Dame and Nurk..... I don't know... that team could be pretty scary.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17MIN8.HTM

 

[RR7]

So if he played 1% of his time at small forward, and 50% of his time at power forward....... where did he play the other 49% of his time?

It's the % of the team's minutes, not his own. Out of all of the PF minutes for the blazers, he played 50% of them. For all of the SF minutes for the Blazers, he played 1%.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Aminu is a problem as a full time SF because then we have limited ball handling and shot creation on the floor.

Stats like those are interesting but they don't take in all factors.

 

[tester551]

Also interesting, Butler has a higher Simple Rating than Dame. +14.2

AND a higher net production of On/Off the court of +13.6 compared to Dame's +11.3.

Dame has a higher production net though.

Butler's numbers are pretty fucking staggering. If you put him with Dame and Nurk..... I don't know... that team could be pretty scary.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17MIN8.HTM

That's why some of us are so adamant that we ought to trade for Buttler. Production wise, CJ and Butler are not even in the same zip code. If you can make that trade, you do it.. no questions asked

 

[Natebishop3]

Aminu is a problem as a full time SF because then we have limited ball handling and shot creation on the floor.

Stats like those are interesting but they don't take in all factors.

Harkless isn't any better in either of those departments.