Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

[Propagandist]

I think our team needs an asshole.

We already have Neil Olshey.

 

[dviss1]

I think he fits our system as a player. Put him at SG or SF, and we are a much better team at both ends. I think people are underrating just how valuable a 2-way player Butler is. He puts up better per game numbers than C.J. and does so more efficiently.

And, on the defensive end, it's not even close. He ranks right up there with Paul George and Kawhi Leonard as one of the best wing defenders in the league. He can guard Durant, LeBron and Harden straight up as well as anyone in the league. Can C.J. do that?

Butler is one of the few players I'd gladly give up C.J. (plus additional assets) to get. He is the rare 2-way player that would make this team better at both ends of the floor. We are overloaded at guard. Granted Simons and Trent Jr. are young and lack experience, but depending on who we gave up (in addition to C.J.), we would have so much versatility, due to Butler's ability to guard both 2s and 3s.

Need more 3-point shooting, pair Butler at the 3 with Trent Jr. or Curry at the 2. Need lock down defense, how does Butler at the 2, Harkless at the 3, Aminu (or Collins) at the 4 and Nurk (or Collins) at the 5 grab you? We could go big, or small, as needed. In fact, we could even force other people to match up with us for a change. Wouldn't that be refreshing?

BNM

Like my ex wife used to say once she realized she was wrong:

Whateverly....

 

[Boob-No-More]

No doubt that Butler's more efficient than CJ, and takes much better shots than CJ. Butler's defense has basically gotten worse every year of his career though. In fact last year CJ's Drtg (per 100) was 109 and Butler's was 110. CJ's defensive win shares last year 2.9 - Jimmy's was 1.8. I realize Injuries play a part in that, but that's also something to consider of Butler's 7 season's he's played more than 70 games only twice. CJ has already done it 3 times, and that's taking into account that CJ didn't get on the court much his 1st and 2nd year, since he's been a starter he's played 80, 80 and 81 games.

Both DWS and DRtg are heavily influenced by your teammates. C.J. had the benefit of playing for a top 8 defense while Butler was saddled playing for a bottom 4 defense. Butler's defense hasn't gotten worse every year, his teammates have gotten worse defensively. His teammates last year were horrible defensively (worst in the league when Butler wasn't on the floor), which is the main reason he's unhappy in MIN. None of the younger player are willing to commit to putting forth an effort on the defensive end of the floor.

There isn't a single stat that captures a players defensive impact, but try poking around at 82 games.com and get an idea of the real difference between Butler's and C.J.'s defensive impact on their teams.

Butler: Own Production = 27.8, Opponent Production = 13.3, Net Production = +14.6. Net Points/48 = +8.4

C.J.: Own Production = 19.7, Opponent Production = 15.8, Net Production = +3.9. Net Points/48 = +2.0

If you scroll down the page and compare their performance per 48 minutes at SG, where both players played the bulk of their minutes, again, you'll see that while C.J. was a net positive, Butler was a MUCH greater net positive:

Butler (at SG): Pts/48 = 34.6, PER = 28.8, Opp Pts/48 = 16.3, Opp PER = 11.6, Net Pts/48 = +18.3, Net PER = +17.1

C.J. (at SG): Pts/48 = 27.3, PER = 17.3, Opp Pts/48 = 23.2, Opp PER = 16.1, Net Pts/48 = +4.1, Net PER = +1.1

Notice that when both were playing the same position, in the same division of the same conference (basically guarding the same opponents), Butler held the man he was guarding to 16.3 Pts/48 while C.J. gave up 23.2 Pts/48 to those same opponents. That's a significant difference.

This may not be a perfect stat (none are, especially when it comes to defense), but I think its more indicative of relative defensive abilities than heavily teammate dependent stats like DWS and DRtg.

That and the fact that Butler has been named 2nd team All Defense 4 times and C.J. has never, and will never, come close. People who know defense, consider Butler a top 10 defender, C.J., not so much...

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Both DWS and DRtg are heavily influenced by your teammates. C.J. had the benefit of playing for a top 8 defense while Butler was saddled playing for a bottom 4 defense. Butler's defense hasn't gotten worse every year, his teammates have gotten worse defensively. His teammates last year were horrible defensively (worst in the league when Butler wasn't on the floor), which is the main reason he's unhappy in MIN. None of the younger player are willing to commit to putting forth an effort on the defensive end of the floor.

There isn't a single stat that captures a players defensive impact, but try poking around at 82 games.com and get an idea of the real difference between Butler's and C.J.'s defensive impact on their teams.

Butler: Own Production = 27.8, Opponent Production = 13.3, Net Production = +14.6. Net Points/48 = +8.4

C.J.: Own Production = 19.7, Opponent Production = 15.8, Net Production = +3.9. Net Points/48 = +2.0

If you scroll down the page and compare their performance per 48 minutes at SG, where both players played the bulk of their minutes, again, you'll see that while C.J. was a net positive, Butler was a MUCH greater net positive:

Butler (at SG): Pts/48 = 34.6, PER = 28.8, Opp Pts/48 = 16.3, Opp PER = 11.6, Net Pts/48 = +18.3, Net PER = +17.1

C.J. (at SG): Pts/48 = 27.3, PER = 17.3, Opp Pts/48 = 23.2, Opp PER = 16.1, Net Pts/48 = +4.1, Net PER = +1.1

Notice that when both were playing the same position, in the same division of the same conference (basically guarding the same opponents), Butler held the man he was guarding to 16.3 Pts/48 while C.J. gave up 23.2 Pts/48 to those same opponents. That's a significant difference.

This may not be a perfect stat (none are, especially when it comes to defense), but I think its more indicative of relative defensive abilities than heavily teammate dependent stats like DWS and DRtg.

That and the fact that Butler has been named 2nd team All Defense 4 times and C.J. has never, and will never, come close. People who know defense, consider Butler a top 10 defender, C.J., not so much...

BNM

I get it. You did ignore my other point about injury’s. Do you feel like Jimmy is reliable at this point? He’ll be 29 this year which isn’t old, but he’s been hurt a lot basically all but one year. Also in the playoff this year he sure wasn’t close to stopping Harden... I agree you that overall Butler is a better player, and the stats back it up. I just don’t know how much I’d put up for him. Sure if the trade was C.J. straight up for Butler my guess is that the Blazers would be better.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

By the @BonesJones @Boob-No-More @hoopsjock you guys should do a Blazer podcast or something. So much more knowledgeable than our local guys. There’s even a few others in here too that know what they’re talking about. Have @dviss1 in once in a while, that ref perspective is a great one to get. You guys could be the next starteRs or whatever the basketball jones is calling itself now (they were better before they got the NBA gig).

 

[dviss1]

By the @BonesJones @Boob-No-More @hoopsjock you guys should do a Blazer podcast or something. So much more knowledgeable than our local guys. There’s even a few others in here too that know what they’re talking about. Have @dviss1 in once in a while, that ref perspective is a great one to get. You guys could be the next starteRs or whatever the basketball jones is calling itself now (they were better before they got the NBA gig).

Yup. And we wouldn't use stupid as words like

"Swishbomb"

 

[hoopsjock]

By the @BonesJones @Boob-No-More @hoopsjock you guys should do a Blazer podcast or something. So much more knowledgeable than our local guys. There’s even a few others in here too that know what they’re talking about. Have @dviss1 in once in a while, that ref perspective is a great one to get. You guys could be the next starteRs or whatever the basketball jones is calling itself now (they were better before they got the NBA gig).

Bones has his stuff on Trueblazerfan. I would love to be involved with something like that though.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Yup. And we wouldn't use stupid as words like

"Swishbomb"

Can swishbomb please be the first word uttered. Just once, out of spite, and just for my amusement lol...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Bones has his stuff on Trueblazerfan. I would love to be involved with something like that though.

I’ve watched many of those videos, it’s much easier for me to digest audio only stuff. I can listen at work and at the gym. Bones does a really good job though and I am sure it would be good even as just audio.

 

[hoopsjock]

Can swishbomb please be the first word uttered. Just once, out of spite, and just for my amusement lol...

No

 

[Propagandist]

By the @BonesJones @Boob-No-More @hoopsjock you guys should do a Blazer podcast or something. So much more knowledgeable than our local guys. There’s even a few others in here too that know what they’re talking about. Have @dviss1 in once in a while, that ref perspective is a great one to get. You guys could be the next starteRs or whatever the basketball jones is calling itself now (they were better before they got the NBA gig).

You must be reading different posts than me...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

You must be reading different posts than me...

I don’t agree with every thing they say, but they are well informed and provide both the “eye-test” and statistics. I respect their opinions, just as I respect yours. Their analysis is so much more well thought out than the local sports media types around here.

 

[Propagandist]

I don’t agree with every thing they say, but they are well informed and provide both the “eye-test” and statistics. I respect their opinions, just as I respect yours. Their analysis is so much more well thought out than the local sports media types around here.

I was 100% joking. I respect thoughtfulness.

 

[Blazers Roy]

I love C.J., but I think you are severely underrating Butler. He is 6'8" and can play both the 2 and the 3. He has been All NBA 3rd team twice (including last season) . He has also been 2nd Team All Defense four times (including last season). He did this all while averaging more points and more assists per game, and of course, more rebounds and steals, than C.J. over the past two seasons.

The last two seasons:

Butler: 23.3 ppg, 5.9 rpg. 5.3 apg, 1.9 spg

C.J.: 22.2 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 0.9 spg

So, Butler averages 1 more point, 1.9 more rebounds, 1.8 more assists and 1 more steal per game than C.J., but that doesn't tell the compete story. When you look at the advanced stats, Butler's superiority becomes obvious:

The last two seasons:

Butler: PER = 24.5, TS% = .588, USG% = 25.8, WS = 11.6, WS/48 = .219, VORP = 5.20

C.J.: PER = 18.4, TS% = .560, USG% = 27.0, WS = 7.10, WS/48 = .119, VORP = 1.95

Two things here surprised me, and really stand out. I knew Butler was a better all around contributor, but his TS% is significantly higher than C.J.'s and he scores more points and gets more assists, while having a lower USG% than C.J. C.J. is known for his shooting, but the only thing he does better than Butler is shoot the 3. Butler gets to the line a lot more and has a much higher 2FG%, thus resulting in a significantly higher TS%.

So, Butler puts up better per game numbers across the board than C.J. He scores more and does so more efficiently, and hands out significantly more assist, all while using up fewer possessions than C.J. He would easily replace C.J.'s scoring, while also being one of the top 10 defenders in the game. If you ask me, that's a pretty significant upgrade.

It may not be enough to get us past GSW or HOU, but I think it would vault us ahead of SAS, NOP, OKC, MIN, DEN, UTA, etc. And, Butler is one few defenders in the league capable of slowing down Kevin Durant and James Harden without relying on constant double teams. Given Terry's flat out refusal to double team the other team's best player, that would be huge for us in a 7 game series. Enough to win that series, hard to say, but enough to make it competitive.

BNM

Butler is the #1 option on his team offense, he plays under a totally different coach\system. You're showing me that he scores 1 more ppg than CJ and that's our big upgrade??

Don't get me wrong! I'm not dismissing the advanced stats and i think Butler is a more well-rounded player, but our coach and system would still be inferior to the one in SA , Anthony Davis can still drop 40 points on our defenders (we'll see if that will be enough without Rondo), OKC seems to look like shit in the playoffs...we could probably beat them with our roster last season and Utah looked much better than us in the playoffs and they are better coached overall.

So we could still beat some 3rd tier teams, Lose to some 2nd tier teams and get dismantled by top tier teams... We're getting a 1 year rental to do that?

Let's also not forget that Butler missed 23 games last year...That's why the Wolves were the 8th seed and got the aforementioned top tier team in round 1. He also missed 47 games during 2013-2016 (3 seasons).
If he'll miss 15-20 games for us then we're probably out of the playoffs.

Sell me Butler AND a real coach and i'd probably be more interested.

 

[dviss1]

Can swishbomb please be the first word uttered. Just once, out of spite, and just for my amusement lol...

Only when we make fun of the other guys lol.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[BonesJones]

By the @BonesJones @Boob-No-More @hoopsjock you guys should do a Blazer podcast or something. So much more knowledgeable than our local guys. There’s even a few others in here too that know what they’re talking about. Have @dviss1 in once in a while, that ref perspective is a great one to get. You guys could be the next starteRs or whatever the basketball jones is calling itself now (they were better before they got the NBA gig).

It'd be a lot of fun. Maybe next off-season.

 

[BlayZa]

It was a cry for attention.

I'm better now.

well thank fuck for that.

holla if you start a gofundme or something

 

[BBert]

well thank fuck for that.

holla if you start a gofundme or something

Meyers has value just in entertainment and providing fans an easy outlet to vent on. If he goes, fans will find another player to flame. It's human nature. I figure it may as well be Meyers as anyone else on the roster

Maybe we should do a gofundme to get Meyers another emotional therapy dog (ok, that was mean....).

 

[dviss1]

It'd be a lot of fun. Maybe next off-season.

We could be better than those swishbomb asshats...

 

[Boob-No-More]

Butler is the #1 option on his team offense, he plays under a totally different coach\system. You're showing me that he scores 1 more ppg than CJ and that's our big upgrade??

Don't get me wrong! I'm not dismissing the advanced stats and i think Butler is a more well-rounded player, but our coach and system would still be inferior to the one in SA , Anthony Davis can still drop 40 points on our defenders (we'll see if that will be enough without Rondo), OKC seems to look like shit in the playoffs...we could probably beat them with our roster last season and Utah looked much better than us in the playoffs and they are better coached overall.

So we could still beat some 3rd tier teams, Lose to some 2nd tier teams and get dismantled by top tier teams... We're getting a 1 year rental to do that?

Let's also not forget that Butler missed 23 games last year...That's why the Wolves were the 8th seed and got the aforementioned top tier team in round 1. He also missed 47 games during 2013-2016 (3 seasons).
If he'll miss 15-20 games for us then we're probably out of the playoffs.

Sell me Butler AND a real coach and i'd probably be more interested.

It's true, Butler has played under a different coach in a different system most of his career. Thibs is a very different coach than Stotts. On that, we agree 100%.

Last year in MIN he wasn't really the #1 option. Wiggins actually averaged a faction more FGA/G and KAT was a very close third. For all practical purposes, in their system, they were 1a, 1b and 1c and whose number was called varied depending on match ups and situations. All three had comparable USG% rates (as did also Jamal Crawford), but Butler averaged significantly more assists than the others (and keep in mind, that an assists counts as a "used" possession) .

And that's what impresses me the most about Butler, he uses possessions very efficiently. It's been pointed out that he "only" averages 1 more ppg than C.J., but he does so on 3 fewer FGA/G while also handing out and additional 1.5 more apg. And, that's just the offensive end. When you also include Butler's defense, he would be a very significant upgrade over C.J. at both ends.

As far as playing under a different coach in a different system, Butler's last year in CHI, he played under Fred Hoiberg, whose coaching style/philosophy is more similar to Stotts than Thibs. Under Hoiberg, Butler had a career year, posting career highs in most offensive categories (ppg, rpg, apg, PER, TS% made 3FG, etc.).

I think Butler paired with Dame and Nurk gives us a much more balanced Big 3 than we currently have with Dame, C.J. and Nurk. It also gives us a much better defense.

I also don't believe Butler would be a 1-year rental. I think Damian Lillard is the type of focused, driven teammate Butler dreams of playing with. I think he would love playing next to Dame and would eagerly resign with POR.

And yes, Butler missed 23 games last year, but he has never had a serious, career threatening injury. Thibs has a well earned reputation for playing his starters too many minutes, and that leads to fatigue related injuries. Butler has been in the top 4 in MPG for the last five seasons in a row. Cut back on his MPG and a lot of those fatigue related injuries will likely disappear.

BNM

 

[BBert]

My barely informed impression regarding Butler's 'attitude' issues is that his issues stem from what he may perceive as a lack of adequate work ethic and focus among some of the Minny players. If that's the case, I feel extremely confident that would not be an issue in Portland. Not on Dame's watch.

If I were Olshey, I'd pay every secondary asset we've got to get Butler on the Blazers with our core.

 

[Boob-No-More]

My barely informed impression regarding Butler's 'attitude' issues is that his issues stem from what he may perceive as a lack of adequate work ethic and focus among some of the Minny players. If that's the case, I feel extremely confident that would not be an issue in Portland. Not on Dame's watch.

If I were Olshey, I'd pay every secondary asset we've got to get Butler on the Blazers with our core.

This, this, 1000 times THIS!

BNM

 

[BBert]

My barely informed impression regarding Butler's 'attitude' issues is that his issues stem from what he may perceive as a lack of adequate work ethic and focus among some of the Minny players. If that's the case, I feel extremely confident that would not be an issue in Portland. Not on Dame's watch.

If I were Olshey, I'd pay every secondary asset we've got to get Butler on the Blazers with our core.

Dame. Watch. Get it?

I kill me

 

[Boob-No-More]

It's really ironic what a horrible fit Butler is in MIN. Thibs brought him in because he's a Thibs kind of player. Same reason he also brought in Taj Gibson, Derrick Rose, and Luol Deng. But, the rest of the roster Thibs inherited is full of no-Thibs kind of players. Even with Butler, that team was atrocious defensively. Without him in the line up, they were dead last.

And, I think this is what's driving Butler nuts (and is probably giving Thibs ulcers and high blood pressure). None of the young guys he's surrounded with put in any effort on the defensive end. That's why he'd be perfect in POR. Our two young bigs, Nurk and Collins, are great defenders. Dame put in the effort last season to improve his defense. Depending on who else we keep, Aminu, Turner and Harklss are all solid defenders, as is Baldwin. In POR, Butler would be surrounded by the kind of teammates he craves playing with.

Move Butler to POR and suddenly our roster looks a LOT more like Thibs had in CHI 6 - 8 years ago than what he has now in MIN.

BNM

 

[Eastoff]

As far as playing under a different coach in a different system, Butler's last year in CHI, he played under Fred Hoiberg, whose coaching style/philosophy is more similar to Stotts than Thibs. Under Hoiberg, Butler had a career year, posting career highs in most offensive categories
BNM

But it seemed he didn't like playing under hoiberg. But was it the system or the coach himself?

 

[Boob-No-More]

But it seemed he didn't like playing under hoiberg. But was it the system or the coach himself?

Rumor was, it was the same problem he has playing in MIN - didn't like the effort and work ethic of the younger players.

I think he believed Thibs would whip the young guys in MIN into shape, but it hasn't worked out that way.

In POR we have a great leader with an unquestioned work ethic, and that has set the tone for the franchise. Look how hard Nurk, who had the reputation of being a lazy slacker with a bad attitude in DEN, has worked the last two off seasons to lose weight, get healthy and be in the best shape of his life. Zach Collins also seems to be a hard worker, along with Wade Baldwin, and even Caleb Swanigan, who hasn't shown much yet at the NBA level has a background of working his ass off (literally) to lose 150 lbs. and become a 1st team All American at Purdue.

In short, our young guys aren't their young guys (either CHI or MIN). We have a strong leader who leads by example and has already instilled that work ethic in them. I really believe if Butler got a chance to play here, he'd love the culture around this team and love his teammates. I think it would be a great fit for him, and us. I think he has the potential be the same kind of missing piece Buck Williams was to that early 90s Blazers team.

BNM

 

[perkinsfor3]

Evan Turner+Zach Collins.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Evan Turner+Zach Collins.

Wouldn't be my first offer. I'd offer them Turner + Aminu. Thibs is also their GM and I think both Turner and Aminu are Thibs kind of guys. I think he'd prefer to bring in veteran players with significant playoff experience to couple with his young guys who have barely tasted the playoffs. Collins is another one of those young guys with barely any playoff experience. Not only is Aminu playoff tested, but he also has a proven record of stepping up his game in the post season. I think that would appeal to Thibs, and I think the fact that he is an expiring contract would appeal to MIN's owners.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do Turner + Collins, but it wouldn't be my first (or second, or third...) choice.

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Wouldn't be my first offer. I'd offer them Turner + Aminu. Thibs is also their GM and I think both Turner and Aminu are Thibs kind of guys. I think he'd prefer to bring in veteran players with significant playoff experience to couple with his young guys who have barely tasted the playoffs. Collins is another one of those young guys with barely any playoff experience. Not only is Aminu playoff tested, but he also has a proven record of stepping up his game in the post season. I think that would appeal to Thibs, and I think the fact that he is an expiring contract would appeal to MIN's owners.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do Turner + Collins, but it wouldn't be my first (or second, or third...) choice.

BNM

I’m not sold Collins is a ‘foundational’ player, but what do they do up front if they trade him? I guess Biggie and Nurk is about all they got?