Jimmy Butler wants out? (He does.)

[Phatguysrule]

Hell no. He needs to go back to being an assistant.

Yes. We'll take him as an assistant.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

You have to imagine even Thibs at this point would want to get a trade Done. Id bet both the timberwolves and whoever trades with them would like to have the new players in camp, around their team, learning the plays and all that...

 

[Wizard Mentor]

People are getting hung up on the cap relief. Nowhere did Woj say that cap relief was their number one priority. They said it was a stipulation, but he also mentioned quality veterans, prospects, and future assets. That's four very different things, and they aren't always congruent.

Turner = veteran
Trent = prospect
Draft pick = future asset
Aminu = cap relief

Leonard is on a shorter and cheaper contract than Dieng, so it's possible they would consider that to be cap relief as well. But I want to highlight that nowhere did Woj say that cap relief was the paramount objective in their trade negotiations.

If I'm Minny, I want Simons instead of Trent, and another draft pick.

 

[Boob-No-More]

When is Minnesota gonna quit bullshitting around?
Adrian Wojnarowski: “I know Minnesota was telling teams last week, ‘We’ve got an offer we really, really like. We’ve got an offer we’d do.’ Nobody believed them. Like, nobody believed them. And part of the problem for that Minnesota front office is, one GM/executive said to me, ‘In normal circumstances, they’re the most difficult in the league to deal with. In normal circumstances, they’re usually very unrealistic about what they can get back from you in a deal. Under these circumstances? They’re exponentially more difficult to deal with.’ And I wonder how that cat-and-mouse game plays out when you’re trying to create a marketplace for a player.”
– viaitunes.apple.com

If I'm Paul Allen and I see this, I immediately have my Vulcans on the phone with Glen Taylor's people making arrangements to fly him out to my nearest yacht for an owner-to-owner sit down. Time to cut out the middlemen and get something done.

Butler is obviously a Thibs guy and Thibs is first and foremost a coach. He doesn't want to do anything that would be a step backwards. He is negotiating with his heart and not his head. He is thinking short term, Glen Taylor is thinking long term. The only way a deal is going to get done it to start negotiating with the man who signs the checks, and out of respect, he should be meeting directly with his counterpart - Paul Allen.

Paul can make a good case. He can tell Glen, look we have Damian Lillard, 1st team All NBA in the prime of his career. We want to win now (or at least soon) while Dame and C.J. are in their primes. Jimmy Butler makes sense for us. He fits with our timeline. You have invested heavily in your youth. You have given Andrew Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns maximum extensions. They are your building blocks, the foundation of a future contender. They are booth 22 years old and won't even be entering their primes for another 4 - 5 years. You are building for the future, for the time when glory days of the Golden State Warriors, Houston Rockets and LeBron James have passed.

You can give us what we need and we can give you what you need. We have several young prospects that would compliment KAT and Wiggins, both on the floor and in terms of age. We own all of our future 1st round picks. We have veterans with salaries to match both Jimmy Butler, and Gorgui Dieng, assuming he doesn't fit in with your long term plans. We can help you out there, too.

Because we are in win now/soon mode, Damian Lillard, C.J. McCollum and Jusuf Nurkic (you already have KAT anyway) are off the table. We are prepared to give you a combination of young prospects and draft picks, plus whatever else it takes to make the salaries work. Let's agree on the main pieces and then let Scott Layden and Neil Olshey dot the i's and cross the t's. We can make this work for both of us. We'd be foolish not to.

BNM

 

[Hoopguru]

If I'm Paul Allen and I see this, I immediately have my Vulcans on the phone with Glen Taylor's people making arrangements to fly him out to my nearest yacht for an owner-to-owner sit down. Time to cut out the middlemen and get something done.

Butler is obviously a Thibs guy and Thibs is first and foremost a coach. He doesn't want to do anything that would be a step backwards. He is negotiating with his heart and not his head. He is thinking short term, Glen Taylor is thinking long term. The only way a deal is going to get done it to start negotiating with the man who signs the checks, and out of respect, he should be meeting directly with his counterpart - Paul Allen.

Paul can make a good case. He can tell Glen, look we have Damian Lillard, 1st team All NBA in the prime of his career. We want to win now (or at least soon) while Dame and C.J. are in their primes. Jimmy Butler makes sense for us. He fits with our timeline. You have invested heavily in your youth. You have given Andrew Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns maximum extensions. They are your building blocks, the foundation of a future contender. They are booth 22 years old and won't even be entering their primes for another 4 - 5 years. You are building for the future, for the time when glory days of the Golden State Warriors, Houston Rockets and LeBron James have passed.

You can give us what we need and we can give you what you need. We have several young prospects that would compliment KAT and Wiggins, both on the floor and in terms of age. We own all of our future 1st round picks. We have veterans with salaries to match both Jimmy Butler, and Gorgui Dieng, assuming he doesn't fit in with your long term plans. We can help you out there, too.

Because we are in win now/soon mode, Damian Lillard, C.J. McCollum and Jusuf Nurkic (you already have KAT anyway) are off the table. We are prepared to give you a combination of young prospects and draft picks, plus whatever else it takes to make the salaries work. Let's agree on the main pieces and then let Scott Layden and Neil Olshey dot the i's and cross the t's. We can make this work for both of us. We'd be foolish not to.

BNM

The only way I include Collins would be if Gibson is part of the deal?

 

[Boob-No-More]

The only way I include Collins would be if Gibson is part of the deal?

Actually, I was thinking Simons makes the most sense of our young prospects, both for us and for MIN. I think of the three he has the greatest potential to be a future all star, which is what MIN wants. But, he's the also the furthest away from being a key rotation piece. If we do this trade, we are committing to win while Dame is in his prime and Collins and Trent Jr., even if they have lower upside than Simons, should be be ready to contribute and be part of the rotation much sooner.

Plus Gibson is an expiring. So, I think MIN would prefer to keep him so they can let him walk next summer.

I was thinking something like:

Harkless
Aminu
Meyers
Simons
2019 1st

For:

Butler
Dieng

Perhaps include our 2020 2nd (if it falls between 31-55 - if it falls between 56-60, we owe it to BRK).



This trade saves MIN $5 million this year and a shit ton going forward. Aminu is a useful player who is also an exiting contract. In Meyers, we trade out overpaid, crappy backup center for their slightly less crappy, but even more overpaid back up center. Meyers makes $5 million a year less than Dieng and has 1 less year remaining. Harkless is included to make the salaries match, and with Butler starting at the 3 and all of Turner, Layman and Trent Jr. capable of playing back up minutes at SF, we don't need Harkless.

One reason I want to keep Collins is every contender needs role players, and even if Collins never develops into a double digit scorer, I think he'd be a good enough 5th option to keep defenses honest. His real appeal is on defense. We were top 8 in defense last year with Dame, C.J., whoever, Aminu and Nurk. I could easily see us being one of the 3 best defensive teams in the league with Dame, C.J., Butler, Collins and Nurk as our starters. We'd also have Turner, Baldwin and Dieng as our backups who are all solid defensively. We'd also have the ability to go small with Dame, C.J., Butler, Turner, Collins, or if we really need a stop, Dame, Baldwin, Butler, Turner, Collins.

Plus, Collins is the EXACT opposite of the young layers Butler has feuded with in CHI and MIN. He's a 20-year old who seems to care more about playing tough defense than scoring. He knows it was his defense that got him into the rotation last season, and if we make this trade, it will be his defense that has him starting. On the defensive end, Nurk + Collins >>>>>>>>> KAT + Wiggins. Our two youngest starters would actually be our second and third best defenders behind Butler. I think that would be a welcome change for Jimmy.

Butler also says he wants to play with another superstar. We can give him that in Damian Lillard. To add Butler, without giving up any of Dame, C.J., Nurk or Collins immediately makes us a top 3 team in the West and distances us from UTA, OKC, NOP, SAS, DEN, MIN, etc. I think it also makes us a better playoff team than HOU, because of our defense. GSW would still have the edge on paper, but as we saw in the 2016 Finals, anything can happen. Even if GSW is 100% healthy, I think adding Butler without giving up any of our top 4 players, would at least let us make a series out of it and give us a puncher's chance - and that's this season. Our roster would be younger than GSW, so at some point on their way down, we should catch and pass them.

Would MIN do it? Considering they don't seem to be getting any other great offers, I think they might - if it really is Glen Taylor calling the shots. In Simons, he gets a tantalizing young prospect with future all star potential. If he reaches his potential, he'd be a nice fit at SG with KAT at center and Wiggins at SF. They also get a 1st and a future 2nd. and they save money both short term and long term.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

Actually, I was thinking Simons makes the most sense of our young prospects, both for us and for MIN. I think of the three he has the greatest potential to be a future all star, which is what MIN wants. But, he's the also the furthest away from being a key rotation piece. If we do this trade, we are committing to win while Dame is in his prime and Collins and Trent Jr., even if they have lower upside than Simons, should be be ready to contribute and be part of the rotation much sooner.

Plus Gibson is an expiring. So, I think MIN would prefer to keep him so they can let him walk next summer.

I was thinking something like:

Harkless
Aminu
Meyers
Simons
2019 1st

For:

Butler
Dieng

Perhaps include our 2020 2nd (if it falls between 31-55 - if it falls between 56-60, we owe it to BRK).

View attachment 22552

This trade saves MIN $5 million this year and a shit ton going forward. Aminu is a useful player who is also an exiting contract. In Meyers, we trade out overpaid, crappy backup center for their slightly less crappy, but even more overpaid back up center. Meyers makes $5 million a year less than Dieng and has 1 less year remaining. Harkless is included to make the salaries match, and with Butler starting at the 3 and all of Turner, Layman and Trent Jr. capable of playing back up minutes at SF, we don't need Harkless.

One reason I want to keep Collins is every contender needs role players, and even if Collins never develops into a double digit scorer, I think he'd be a good enough 5th option to keep defenses honest. His real appeal is on defense. We were top 8 in defense last year with Dame, C.J., whoever, Aminu and Nurk. I could easily see us being one of the 3 best defensive teams in the league with Dame, C.J., Butler, Collins and Nurk as our starters. We'd also have Turner, Baldwin and Dieng as our backups who are all solid defensively. We'd also have the ability to go small with Dame, C.J., Butler, Turner, Collins, or if we really need a stop, Dame, Baldwin, Butler, Turner, Collins.

Plus, Collins is the EXACT opposite of the young layers Butler has feuded with in CHI and MIN. He's a 20-year old who seems to care more about playing tough defense than scoring. He knows it was his defense that got him into the rotation last season, and if we make this trade, it will be his defense that has him starting. On the defensive end, Nurk + Collins >>>>>>>>> KAT + Wiggins. Our two youngest starters would actually be our second and third best defenders behind Butler. I think that would be a welcome change for Jimmy.

Butler also says he wants to play with another superstar. We can give him that in Damian Lillard. To add Butler, without giving up any of Dame, C.J., Nurk or Collins immediately makes us a top 3 team in the West and distances us from UTA, OKC, NOP, SAS, DEN, MIN, etc. I think it also makes us a better playoff team than HOU, because of our defense. GSW would still have the edge on paper, but as we saw in the 2016 Finals, anything can happen. Even if GSW is 100% healthy, I think adding Butler without giving up any of our top 4 players, would at least let us make a series out of it and give us a puncher's chance - and that's this season. Our roster would be younger than GSW, so at some point on their way down, we should catch and pass them.

Would MIN do it? Considering they don't seem to be getting any other great offers, I think they might - if it really is Glen Taylor calling the shots. In Simons, he gets a tantalizing young prospect with future all star potential. If he reaches his potential, he'd be a nice fit at SG with KAT at center and Wiggins at SF. They also get a 1st and a future 2nd. and they save money both short term and long term.

BNM

This is a great post but I didn't like our because of rather keep Simons than Trent.

 

[Boob-No-More]

This is a great post but I didn't like our because of rather keep Simons than Trent.

I agree that Simons is a better prospect, which is exactly why I think MIN would insist he be included in any deal for Butler. You have to give something to get something and Butler is a top 15 payer in the league. To get him without giving up any of Dame, C.J., Nurk or Collins would be HUGE upgrade over our current roster.

It all comes down to the short term vs. the long term. Butler fits Dame's timeline better than Simons. The key is if you trade away your best future prospect, you better be damn sure you can resign Butler next summer.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

Actually, I was thinking Simons makes the most sense of our young prospects, both for us and for MIN. I think of the three he has the greatest potential to be a future all star, which is what MIN wants. But, he's the also the furthest away from being a key rotation piece. If we do this trade, we are committing to win while Dame is in his prime and Collins and Trent Jr., even if they have lower upside than Simons, should be be ready to contribute and be part of the rotation much sooner.

Plus Gibson is an expiring. So, I think MIN would prefer to keep him so they can let him walk next summer.

I was thinking something like:

Harkless
Aminu
Meyers
Simons
2019 1st

For:

Butler
Dieng

Perhaps include our 2020 2nd (if it falls between 31-55 - if it falls between 56-60, we owe it to BRK).

View attachment 22552

This trade saves MIN $5 million this year and a shit ton going forward.

BNM

Total salary taken on with this trade, assuming Butler opts out and Minnesota picks up Simons’ option. I’ll round to make it easier.

Portland: $69m

Minnesota: $65m + whatever the value of that first round pick is.

Minnesota would be fools to even consider this package, and that’s just financially speaking. They’d essentially be adding salary. Basketball wise, I see quantity instead of quality.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Total salary taken on with this trade, assuming Butler opts out and Minnesota picks up Simons’ option. I’ll round to make it easier.

Portland: $69m

Minnesota: $65m + whatever the value of that first round pick is.

Minnesota would be fools to even consider this package, and that’s just financially speaking. They’d essentially be adding salary. Basketball wise, I see quantity instead of quality.

Good point, I think Minny needs to get players with more immediate on the court value or they need expiring contracts.

Sacramento would be willing to eat into next year's cap if they get draft picks. Maybe a three way trade with the below contracts and draft picks(or Simons) going to both Minny/Sacramento;
SAC Turner Meyers, POR draft pick
MIN Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos, POR draft pick
POR Butler, Dieng
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ybb4d22w

Another option if the Blazers want to avoid the 3rd year of Dieng contract, this would requires more draft assets such as multiple unprotected first round picks though;

SAC Turner Dieng, 2x POR draft pick
MIN Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos, POR draft pick
POR Butler

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yav7lpgt

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Here is a 3rd version;

SAC Turner, Meyers, POR draft pick(s)
MIN Shumpert, Koufos, Aminu, McLemore
POR Butler, Dieng

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yamxelnh

 

[hoopsjock]

Here is a 3rd version;

SAC Turner, Meyers, POR draft pick(s)
MIN Shumpert, Koufos, Aminu, McLemore
POR Butler, Dieng

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yamxelnh

Why on Earth would Minnesota trade Butler for those 4?

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Why on Earth would Minnesota trade Butler for those 4?

Because they wipe out over $30 million from Dieng contract along with a few rotational players. I think they will have to choose if they get relief from Dieng contract or a talented starter back, I doubt they get both.

 

[hoopsjock]

Because they wipe out over $30 million from Dieng contract along with a few rotational players. I think they will have to choose if they get relief from Dieng contract or a talented starter back, I doubt they get both.

Maybe not but they would at least get a pick or a young talented player in any Butler deal.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Maybe not but they would at least get a pick or a young talented player in any Butler deal.

If they want youth or picks above other requirements yes a fair deal can be constructed so they get that. I was just suggesting ideas, one possibility which has more veterans and salary relief going to them. Feel free to suggest a more fair scenario yourself.

They want a quality starting player, picks, young talented players, and salary relief. Thats more than they gave up for Butler at the draft, with a full offseason for his acquiring team, and two years on his deal.

They won't get everything they want.

 

[hoopsjock]

If they want youth or picks above other requirements yes a fair deal can be constructed so they get that. I was just suggesting ideas, one possibility which has more veterans and salary relief going to them. Feel free to suggest a more fair scenario yourself.

They want a quality starting player, picks, young talented players, and salary relief. Thats more than they gave up for Butler at the draft, with a full offseason for his acquiring team, and two years on his deal.

They won't get everything they want.

I've given several suggestions in this thread, some of which accomplishes all four.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

The question is at this point is Jimmy gonna just sit out? Minnesota seems in no hurry to do anything.

 

[hoopsjock]

The question is at this point is Jimmy gonna just sit out? Minnesota seems in no hurry to do anything.

Minnesota is being so dumb. It's no secret Butler was unhappy there. Why are they waiting?

Whatever, I guess it's good for us if he sits out.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Minnesota is being so dumb. It's no secret Butler was unhappy there. Why are they waiting?

Whatever, I guess it's good for us if he sits out.

Its just dumb it doesnt make Jimmy or Minnesota look good it looks pretty dumb all the way around.

 

[Scalma]

Minnesota is being so dumb. It's no secret Butler was unhappy there. Why are they waiting?

Whatever, I guess it's good for us if he sits out.

Its just dumb it doesnt make Jimmy or Minnesota look good it looks pretty dumb all the way around.

I blame Jimmy. It’s not Minnesota’s fault the guy waited until September to request a trade. Now they’re in a tough position because nobody has any cap space and a lot of rosters are filled up, not to mention Butlers contract situation.

Add the fact that Thibs is probably coaching for his job, and yeah, I can understand the lack of movement or progress. If he didn’t have his boss breathing down his neck I bet he would keep Butler.

If Minnesota ends up getting anything resembling value in return, Thibs should get an extension lol.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I blame Jimmy. It’s not Minnesota’s fault the guy waited until September to request a trade. Now they’re in a tough position because nobody has any cap space and a lot of rosters are filled up, not to mention Butlers contract situation.

Add the fact that Thibs is probably coaching for his job, and yeah, I can understand the lack of movement or progress. If he didn’t have his boss breathing down his neck I bet he would keep Butler.

If Minnesota ends up getting anything resembling value in return, Thibs should get an extension lol.

I blame both, Yeah Jimmy waited, but Thibs had to know there was issues there since every other basketball fan knew it. Thibs didnt appear to do anything to fix it earlier. He should have a better grasp on his players than that.

 

[hoopsjock]

I blame Jimmy. It’s not Minnesota’s fault the guy waited until September to request a trade. Now they’re in a tough position because nobody has any cap space and a lot of rosters are filled up, not to mention Butlers contract situation.

Add the fact that Thibs is probably coaching for his job, and yeah, I can understand the lack of movement or progress. If he didn’t have his boss breathing down his neck I bet he would keep Butler.

If Minnesota ends up getting anything resembling value in return, Thibs should get an extension lol.

As I understand it, it was pretty clear that Butler wanted out at the conclusion of the season. I also heard that at one point he said it was either KAT or him that had to go plus he has issues with Wiggins. Thibs knew this all along and even AFTER meeting with Jimmy last week and him requesting a trade STILL thought he could convince him to stay. This is 100% on Minnesota. They thought they could change his mind. Their off season has been pretty bad.

 

[BlayZa]

get that tape of meyers hitting a few threes from yesterday + some old glory game footage of Turner (he's done literally nothing good since he came here) and get that shit over to to the Timberpups + off the record cash.

tbh id trade meyers n turner just to not have them. not even getting butler in return.

 

[BBert]

Any Butler trade that sends out Harkless instead of Turner makes me

 

[Scalma]

I blame both, Yeah Jimmy waited, but Thibs had to know there was issues there since every other basketball fan knew it. Thibs didnt appear to do anything to fix it earlier. He should have a better grasp on his players than that.

As I understand it, it was pretty clear that Butler wanted out at the conclusion of the season. I also heard that at one point he said it was either KAT or him that had to go plus he has issues with Wiggins. Thibs knew this all along and even AFTER meeting with Jimmy last week and him requesting a trade STILL thought he could convince him to stay. This is 100% on Minnesota. They thought they could change his mind. Their off season has been pretty bad.

If Butler wanted out earlier, why didn’t he let Minnesota know? What was this latest meeting about? If he did let them know, and Thibs ignored it anyway, then yeah the wolves arent innocent.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

If Butler wanted out earlier, why didn’t he let Minnesota know? What was this latest meeting about? If he did let them know, and Thibs ignored it anyway, then yeah the wolves arent innocent.

I guess thats kind of my point, the news that Jimmy wasnt happy is not new news at this point thats been out for a while. I agree Jimmy shouldve told them earlier. From the sounds of things Thibs didnt do anything to reach out to Jimmy and see where things were at though. Its on both of them to act like adults, to talk this stuff out, since both of them have careers on the line. It seems to me like this doesnt make either side look good.

 

[TBpup]

The offers don't get better the close the start of the season gets. And the only way a team has of convincing him to stay a'la PG13 is to have him for the whole season. I don't blame MIN because Butler went public so late but at this point, get what you can get and move on.

Otherwise, they risk him pulling an Aldridge.

 

[Natebishop3]

That isn't even close to what is meant by cap relief. I thought I broke it down for you pretty clearly.

Going to Minnesota (Turner, Leonard, Aminu, and Trent): Salary for this season is $36,259,928

Going to Portland (Butler and Dieng): Salary for this season is $35,616,566

So for immediate purposes they are actually adding to their payroll for this year. With me so far?

Minnesota future salary owed because of this trade (Turner, Leonard, Trent): $32,973,784

Portland future salary owed because of this trade (Dieng): $33,516,853

So in future salary the Wolves save a little over $500,000. If you add all the contracts in your trade the Wolves are actually taking on MORE salary than going out. You can't just ignore Turner's contract because you consider him the "vet" part of the trade. I'm sorry but that completely fails to give any cap relief.

You can't account for Butler's contract AND Dieng and expect major cap relief.

Nobody in the league has that much in expiring contracts. The focus of the trade should be in two parts.

1: getting value for Butler - and that would be Turner/Trent/draft pick

2: getting cap relief for Dieng - and that's an expiring contract in Aminu and a shorter/less expensive deal in Leonard.

The rub is whether Minnesota values Turner or if he would just be considered matching salary. Supposedly Thibbs loves Turner, so I'm betting on them considering him as a valuable piece. If they don't feel that way, the trade doesn't work and it's all moot.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You can't account for Butler's contract AND Dieng and expect major cap relief.

Nobody in the league has that much in expiring contracts. The focus of the trade should be in two parts.

1: getting value for Butler - and that would be Turner/Trent/draft pick

2: getting cap relief for Dieng - and that's an expiring contract in Aminu and a shorter/less expensive deal in Leonard.

The rub is whether Minnesota values Turner or if he would just be considered matching salary. Supposedly Thibbs loves Turner, so I'm betting on them considering him as a valuable piece. If they don't feel that way, the trade doesn't work and it's all moot.

If you exclude Leonard from your proposal, and send Collins instead of Trent, it provides much more in terms of cap relief, and a better prospect as well. Probably more likely to be intriguing to MIN.

Also, as noted above, Kings have large expirings and lots of cap room as well. They would be well able to facilitate a deal that significantly reduces MIN's cap obligation.

 

[Natebishop3]

If you exclude Leonard from your proposal, and send Collins instead of Trent, it provides much more in terms of cap relief, and a better prospect as well. Probably more likely to be intriguing to MIN.

Also, as noted above, Kings have large expirings and lots of cap room as well. They would be well able to facilitate a deal that significantly reduces MIN's cap obligation.

I guess it really depends on whether you view Collins as a power forward or a center.

If he's a center, I'm not opposed to trading him. We already made a substantial investment in Nurk.

If he's a power forward, I don't think you trade him for a potential one year rental. We're already pretty thin at power forward, and moving him would really put us in a tenuous situation. I guess it really depends on whether you believe in the future of Biggie.