Kahn: Kidd Now Only Seventh Best at the Point

[Answer_AI03]

I totally agree that iverson and arenas are not pure point gaurds. They do more than just pass. They score a ton, they get steals, they hit big shots, and completely change the game. I've heard more than one coach say that the only other player besides shaq that forces them to make serious adjustments to their defense is allen iverson. I think kobe and arenas probably fit that catagory too now. But iverson and arenas are a couple of the best players for any position in the whole NBA. when i think of GREAT players, Kidd just isnt one of the ones that comes to mind.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll give you iverson and arenas do turn the ball over a little too much, but its tolerable becasue they do so much more. If iverson averages 33 points a game and also gets about 7.5 assists, then that accounts for almost 50 points a game from one player. i could live with a bad assist/turnover ratio as long as one player is </div>

That's really great but is Iverson winning with that "50 pts"? From what I hear is that they have a scorer, but they need a passer.



Pure Point Guards (no specific order)
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Chris Paul

Scoring Point Guards
Tony Parker
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson

They are different kinds of players,yet they are being compared as if they are the same. You can compare Nash to Kidd but you can't really compare Iverson to Kidd.

Can you compare Martin to Nash? No because they are different players, just like pure point guards and scoring guards.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">Imagine Kidd on a team without a dominant scorer like Vince carter or Richard Jefferson. he would be forced to carry more of the load for his team, much like iverson, arenas, etc. In a situation like that kidd would struggle, where as the rest of these gaurds still make up for alot of their teams output. Also...why is ONE players ability based upon the TEAMS success?</div>

Oh really? So what about the team that won 2 straight East Titles? Carter wasn't there. Martin led the Nets in scoring in the regular season with 14.9ppg while Kidd averaged 14.7ppg and had 9.9 apg. Yeah Kidd struggled in that one, because he led the Nets in scoring in all of the playoff series, and oh. he also averaged 17.5 ppg, 10.2 apg and 11.2 rpg in the East Finals.

He really choked that time huh?

And another thing, your Marbury led the Nets the previous year to a whopping 26-56 record! And why is ONE players ability based upon the TEAMS success? DUH!? Doesn't deserve an answer.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">That was also one of the weakest years the eastern conference has ever had. </div>
uh really? So what happend to the Sixers? Washington? New York?The great scorers that they had wasn't able to win in the east that you say was weak? Hmmm, but the less scoring Kidd led the Nets to 2 straight winning seasons.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">I totally agree that iverson and arenas are not pure point gaurds. </div>

So what's there to argue about? The thread is about the best point guards not 2 guards.

 

[Answer_AI03]

I already said that Kidd is a great player. I dont deny that one bit. But this year I will take iverson, or arenas, or nash, or even paul over kidd any day of the week. He's a great passer, but he doesnt keep the defence honost because he isnt an offensive threat. teams are able to double carter, or jefferson because kidd isnt going to consistantly knock down the open shot. I'm really getting sick of people talking about team accomplishments. If Kidd is better than any other point gaurd because he went to the finals twice, then Kevin Garnett is not one of the best Pfs of all time because he cant carry his team by himself, even though he is one of the most well rounded players to ever play basketball. Same with paul pierce, Lebron james never made the finals either and i dont think your gonna tell me kidd is better than him. If lebron played strictly point gaurd he would be the second or third best in the whole group if not the first. i dont think i would even put kidd in the top 30 players in the whole league.

 

[Answer_AI03]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The thread is about the best point guards not 2 guards</div>

The arguement is, Iverson and arenas DO play pointgaurd for their teams. though their talented enough to play more than one position.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But this year I will take iverson, or arenas, or nash, or even paul over kidd any day of the week.</div>

It all depends on what the team needs. If I need an undersized scorer I will take Iverson or Arenas over Nash,Paul and Kidd. If I need a passer I would take Nash,Paul or Kidd.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's a great passer, but he doesnt keep the defence honost because he isnt an offensive threat.</div>

And Nash isn't a defensive threat, and yet you don't have a problem with that.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">teams are able to double carter, or jefferson because kidd isnt going to consistantly knock down the open shot.</div>

They can't be double teamed at the same time. If Jeff is doubled, Carter is free and vice versa. The only reason Kidd only shoots open shots is because the offense doesn't run through him. If it did he would play like Nash and Paul.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Kidd is better than any other point gaurd because he went to the finals twice, then Kevin Garnett is not one of the best Pfs of all time because he cant carry his team by himself, even though he is one of the most well rounded players to ever play basketball.</div>

Did you forget how many times Kidd put players on another level? From Dallas to PHX to NJ. That big paycheck that Martin got was pratically because of Kidd. We still haven't seen him live up to it without Kidd.

KG is a well rounded player but he is a loser just like Marbury. I'm not trying to diss him but he has never won anything. Great player but can't seem to carry his team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Same with paul pierce, Lebron james never made the finals either and i dont think your gonna tell me kidd is better than him. If lebron played strictly point gaurd he would be the second or third best in the whole group if not the first.</div>
Lebron a point guard...are you serious? He's a scorer, not a passer. His job is to score and not to distribute the ball.

BTW, he has been in the league for a short time so, he still has time to make it to the finals. And I can't say that Kidd is better than him. Why? Because they have different roles and jobs on the team. Are you going to say Lebron is a better playmaker than Kidd? No! Is he a way better scorer. Yes!

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i dont think i would even put kidd in the top 30 players in the whole league.</div>

Now that's just sad.

 

[Answer_AI03]

i understand where your coming fromand i do agree that kid is a great passer and he makes players better. but im just saying that there are better gaurds right now. these days the position is defined very loosely. Kidd has had an amazing career, possibly one of the best pgs ever. but there are plenty of players that are better than him right now. not better careers, but better PLAYERS right now.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">The arguement is, Iverson and arenas DO play pointgaurd for their teams. though their talented enough to play more than one position.</div>

Please read the title of the thread dude, "best at the point", not 2 guards who can play the point. If this was a thread about the best guards generally and not "specifically" point guards then Iverson may have an edge over Kidd. But it's not... it's about the best "POINT" guard. It's like saying that Michael Jordan was the better point guard than Magic, because MJ who played point at times and is a better scorer than Magic. Of course not, Magic is the better player at the PG position than MJ. Man do I have to break it down for you?

KEYWORD: POINT GUARD

 

[Moo2K4]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">I already said that Kidd is a great player. I dont deny that one bit. But this year I will take iverson, or arenas, or nash, or even paul over kidd any day of the week. He's a great passer, but he doesnt keep the defence honost because he isnt an offensive threat. teams are able to double carter, or jefferson because kidd isnt going to consistantly knock down the open shot. I'm really getting sick of people talking about team accomplishments. If Kidd is better than any other point gaurd because he went to the finals twice, then Kevin Garnett is not one of the best Pfs of all time because he cant carry his team by himself, even though he is one of the most well rounded players to ever play basketball. Same with paul pierce, Lebron james never made the finals either and i dont think your gonna tell me kidd is better than him. If lebron played strictly point gaurd he would be the second or third best in the whole group if not the first. i dont think i would even put kidd in the top 30 players in the whole league.</div>I have to disagree here. The defense can't double team on VC or RJ, because the other can torch them, and they also have Krstic that is developing into a great player. The fact that Kidd isn't an offensive threat as much as a Nash or Parker is really doesn't hurt them at all. They have so many other people that scoring from him is no longer a necessity for a win. And those other points you made are complete crap. Kidd isn't a great point guard because he's gone to the finals, he's a great player because he makes everyone around him better and has been successful everywhere he's went. He led a Nets team that really had nothing outside of young talent to back to back finals. Also, that was the same Nets team that, the year before, wound up in the lottery with the top pick and snagged KMart. He led Phoenix to the playoffs on numerous occasions. Another look at his importance, just take a look at two seasons ago when he was hurt for the first month or so. The team wasn't doing much of anything. He came back, and with the addition of Carter, led a Nets team with nothing much outside of him, Carter, and rookie Krstic to the playoffs after being well below .500 for the first couple of months of the season. So while he may not be the offensive player that all those other guys are, he's still the best floor general in the league. He can still run a team better than anyone else. He still finds openings better than anyone in the NBA. He still sets up others better than anyone in the NBA. He is still the best point guard in the NBA. Period.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post"> i dont think i would even put kidd in the top 30 players in the whole league.</div>

Considering you have Marbury on your list, I'm not surprised.

 

[Answer_AI03]

i didnt say i would put marbury over kidd. and i think 30 might have been a little bit of an exageration. but i dont think 15-20 would be too much.

 

[NJNetz]

Different source ranks Kidd 4th

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4. Jason Kidd, New Jersey: He's not as quick as he was, but Kidd pulls all his other assets together to make up for it. He's savvier than most, invaluable as a playmaker and tempo manipulator, and he remains a standout rebounder and defender. Too bad that jumper never did come around, though he does tend to deliver in the clutch. </div>
Source

On Nash
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Summer photos reveal that the formerly shaggy-haired Steve Nash will be rockin' a new 'do this season. (Getty Images)
The best point guard of his era, this era, is Canadian.</div>

That's the crap that annoys me. The guy has 2 great seasons, and now he's the best point guard of his era. Yea ok...

 

[AMS_ICE]

True. Nash should be thankful to Amare, Marion, Barboza and the rest of his teammates and the Suns' system.

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i dont think i would even put kidd in the top 30 players in the whole league.</div>

 

[Answer_AI03]

people that i would rather have on my team than jason kidd...1-25 (not really in any specific order) :
1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. AI
4. Lebron
5. Yao Ming
6. Dwayne Wayde
7. Tracy McGrady
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Chris Bosh
10. Gilbert Arenas
11. Paul Pierce
12. Dirk Nowitzki
13. Elton Brand
14. Ray Allen
15. Shawn Marion
16. Steve Nash
17. Barron Davis
18. Chris Paul
19. Dwite Howard
20. Amare Staudimire
21. Tim Duncan
22. Carmelo Anthony
23. Vince Carter
24. Andre Kiralinko
25. Ron Artest

some of these could be interchangable with players that are not on the list, but this was just off the top of my head. I dont think that this list is totally unreasonable either. IMO kidd is only arguably as good as some of these players. Maybe a better "pure point gaurd" but not better overall player.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">17. Barron Davis</div>

He's younger than Kidd yet much more injury prone. And you choose him over Kidd.

I still don't really understand the point of this list, so I'll counter it

Pure Point Guards I would choose for my team.
1.Jason Kidd
2.Steve Nash
3.Chris Paul






789.AI
790.Gilbert Arenas
791.Baron Davis

 

[Answer_AI03]

Hahaha

 

[Answer_AI03]

By the way, i put 25 PLAYERs i'd rather have than kidd. not point gaurds.<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">789.AI
790.Gilbert Arenas
791.Baron Davis</div>

REALLY shows that you know alot about basketball. No bias at all either there huh?

 

[Bobcats]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way, i put 25 PLAYERs i'd rather have than kidd. not point gaurds.</div>

Baron Davis isn't a PG?

 

[Iggy]

^^ He meant his list doesn't consist of ALL point gaurds.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Answer_AI03:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way, i put 25 PLAYERs i'd rather have than kidd. not point gaurds.

REALLY shows that you know alot about basketball. No bias at all either there huh?</div>

You make stupid post that Kidd isn't even a top 30 player, so I think I have the right to make a stupid comment too.

And please don't tell me what I know about basketball. I'm pretty sure I know a couple of things.

 

[Legacy]

I hate when people hate players and say that they suck. I hate Bruce Bowen but he is a great defender. He may be physical but the guy can play D. Back to topic, Kidd is the best PG in the league. I didn't like Kidd when I first saw him play I admit I was a hater of Kidd until 2000. He really improved the Nets offensevley and defensivley. I turned from a Kidd hater to now having Kidd in my top 5 favortie players. I have respect for Kidd more than any other player in the NBA. I think he is afuture hall of famer and one of the best point guards of all time. He might not play as good as he did in his prime but J-Kidd can still ball.

 

[Answer_AI03]

I dont hate kidd in any way. hes a good player, and yes, he still can ball. theres just alot of better players right now. and thats all i was saying. i just think that its funny that some people in here think that kidd is still one of the top <u>players</u> in basketball.

 

[Intrepid1983]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AMS_ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Now that's a laugh! Put Nash and Billups on the team the Nets had when they won the east... Neither Nash or Billups would have brought the Nets past the 1st round. Nash has Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Bell, Diaw on his side, he has a great cast. Billups had, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Hamilton, Prince when they won the championship (against a disgruntled Lakers). Kidd had young guys in Martin, Vanhorn and Jefferson. If there's anything that these guys have on Kidd, is their scoring. But then again, it's not a point guards job to score is it?</div>

Stop over-rating Kidd. People love to overrate him for things he did in the past. Nash is better than Kidd and Billups i'm not so sure. Nash is for sure a hell of a better player than Kidd. You're talking about supporting casts? Jordan had Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Longley. If Nash had Martin, Vanhorn and Jefferson, they would still dominate. When you say Nash has Amare, look how far nash brought them even when Amare was injured this past season. Barbosa was considered lost potential until he was with Nash, and bell was always a side player. Kidd has always been surrounded by good people. The only thing he can do now is pass the ball to Carter, which is pretty much what everyone does. Carter can bring a team to the playoffs without Kidd. Kidd is just riding on the Carter bandwagon. Without Carter there, the Nets became near the last place in the Eastern division after Kenyon left. Says a lot about Kidd at his current state.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">Stop over-rating Kidd. People love to overrate him for things he did in the past. Nash is better than Kidd and Billups i'm not so sure. Nash is for sure a hell of a better player than Kidd. You're talking about supporting casts? Jordan had Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Longley. If Nash had Martin, Vanhorn and Jefferson, they would still dominate. When you say Nash has Amare, look how far nash brought them even when Amare was injured this past season. Barbosa was considered lost potential until he was with Nash, and bell was always a side player. Kidd has always been surrounded by good people. The only thing he can do now is pass the ball to Carter, which is pretty much what everyone does. Carter can bring a team to the playoffs without Kidd. Kidd is just riding on the Carter bandwagon. Without Carter there, the Nets became near the last place in the Eastern division after Kenyon left. Says a lot about Kidd at his current state.</div>

Oh really, now your just overrating Nash. Are you going to tell me that the Suns didn't have a great roster in 2004-2005. Nash was able to pass the ball to Quentin Richardson,Amare,Shawn Marion,Joe Johnson, and Jimmy Jackson. Of course that's not a good supporting cast. I'm sure the team that Kidd took to the 2001 and 2003 finals could easily beat the PHX roster.

This past season's roster wasn't even that bad either. They had more of a balance on both offense and defense. The roster was good so I don't know what your talking about. Nets didn't have anybody but the five starters

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Nash had Martin, Vanhorn and Jefferson, they would still dominate.</div>

Yet he wasn't dominating when he had Finley,Stackhouse,Dirk and etc. Where was he then? The only time in his career he has been dominating is these past two seasons.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd has always been surrounded by good people.</div>

Kidd has always been making the players good throughout his whole career. He has been making the players around him good, just like he resurrected Carter's career.

Your gonna tell me that Kidd didn't make Martin an All Star player? Where is Martin now without Kidd. He was a top 10 PF with Kidd and now he isn't even on the list.

What about Nash? Has he been surrounded by good players? Yes, in Dallas and Phoenix.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The only thing he can do now is pass the ball to Carter, which is pretty much what everyone does. Carter can bring a team to the playoffs without Kidd. Kidd is just riding on the Carter bandwagon. </div>

I don't even need to comment on this, because you just made yourself look really stupid.

 

[Legacy]

Wow Kidd, I thought you said you can't debate?

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Carter:</div><div class="quote_post">Wow Kidd, I thought you said you can't debate?

</div>

Face to face, I would express my thoughts much better than I did in my post. It's hard for me to express exactly what I mean in my posts but I try my best. I'm sure I will get much better as time passes.

 

[Answer_AI03]

Kidd DID NOT ressurect carters career. dont even try saying that he did. Carter was just unhappy in toronto and did'nt play like he meant it. He showed his frustration with the raptors franchise through his play. When he got traded it made him happy again so he played like he meant it again. Carter has always been an amazing player, he did'nt need kidd to become that. kidd needed him so people would still think he was an elite point gaurd.