<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">He's never been a consitent jumpshooter, and still isn't, but truly he had an underatted jumpshot coming out of, and while he was in college. Just because of how it looked, people underestimated it, but he could hit shots quite well. He wasn't raw in terms of what we consider raw. We call guys who just have the athleticism and need to improve many areas of their game raw. Marion had great offensive IQ in terms of moving off the ball, was an excellent rebounder at SF, and had a knack for the ball, was a solid defender on and off the ball, was a good FT shooter (was actually poor in college), and had a mediocre jumpshot. I don't know if I consider that raw anyways.</div>
I don't agree with that at all. He was scared to shoot his rookie year. They gave him all day to pop a shot, but rarely he made them pay.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marion must've worked a lot in the summer before his rookie year though because when he came in the NBA, </div>
Who doesn't work hard the summer before their rookie year?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he did not look like a raw player, and when I say raw, I mean a guy like Travis Outlaw. </div>
And when I say raw I mean Andre Iguodala when he came to the league. Richard Jefferson when he first started. Hasaan Adams right now. Etc.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">His mid-range jumpshot was as consistent as it is now, all he did in his first two seasons was expand his range on his jumpshot. Offensively he's still the same player who makes fastbreak oppurtunities out of nothing, and is one of the best at moving without the ball and finding open lanes. </div>
I think otherwise. If anything he worked out the kinks in that awkward shotoing format he has. He had once said that at first he couldn't get his jumper right because he didn't know how to time his jump and release till later in his career. He cited that he jumped too high on his shot so it would go long. However, if he didn't release at a certain time it wouldn't arc and be flat.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I truly don't think that quote proves anything in this argument. Marion still does not have "ball skills" and consistent shooting, but would you say he's raw now? He stil isn't a guy who you put the ball in his hands as a playmaker, and decision maker, but would we say he's raw? No. </div>
Decision making is not a trait that only playmakers have. It could be simple as running to an open spot. Setting a screen then screening away. Or as simple as running the pick and roll right. Skills Marion did not get as well coming into the league and reasons why he never looked fluid in his game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I just don't agree with that assesment that it was because of Kidd that he did good as a rookie. Marion individually would've done quite well as a rookie with whatever PG the team had. Having Kidd obviously helped him more than if he had Milt Palacio. Kidd would find him in spots a bad PG wouldn't be able to, but Kidd didn't make a difference in whether he was good or not, he was good either way. </div>
This is the arguement all Jason Kidd-doubters propose. Not to call you one, but at the same time, people who don't watch Jason assume that players are already good and all Jason does is throw them a lob or two. No, it's beyond that. Sure Vince was a great player before the Nets, however, I doubt entirely his motivation is because he wanted to prove a point that he still was elite. When the we were inconsistent the first month or two in the league, Vince was playing horrible. Only RJ was consistent and Jason stepped in demanding Vince to play at a higher level and more seriously, which resulted in our first 10 game winning streak. I mean, something as simple as knowing that your leader is demanding and expecting something of you makes you a better player. This is what seperates him from a Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Baron Davis---all players that many argue to be better than Jason at one point of their careers. Respect. So do I think that Shawn Marion was just bad coming into the league? No. Do I think that he played extra-motivated after knowing the level Kidd demnands? Yes, certainly. And that makes a world of difference. I'm not saying like it's like bumping you from a B to an A+ in personal player level, but significant enough to realize what you're capable of in the future where you could be unsure to begin with.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if you look at his rookie year, Kidd missed the whole of April due
to injury, and Marion averaged
10.8 PPG on 51.6% FG (a high for a month that season).</div>
And RJ averaged like 26/7/4 when Kidd, Kittles, and Martin were out in '04. And like 25/8/3 after the deconstruction at the start of the '05 season where our second best player was Rodney Buford. However, it is easy to play at a high level for a short amount of time. Given the entire season, 82 games and going in every night knowing you don't have a Kidd coming back.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's the same way people raved about how Kidd made Kmart which really wasn't true. Kidd made Kmarts team win, but Kmart is no different offensively with Andre Miller than he was with Kidd. He's actually been slightly more efficient from the field.</div>
That's assumption you make off of stats, not by play. He averages a bit more, but he doesn't make the Nuggets that much better. Before Kmart came they were a first and out playoff team. Things haven't changed. So I don't think he's been that much more efficient given a better statistical output.
Your going with Carter's highlight reels?!! Good one!
Who gave the Nets their franchise record of season wins of 52? Carter? NOT! It was Kidd! Who led the Nets to back-to-back East titles? Carter! Wrong again! It was Jason Kidd! Carter is good, but even Carter himself admits that he's better with Jason Kidd around... Nash has a better team than what Kidd had when they won the east. And Vanhorn a clutch performer?! Are you sure you know who Vanhorn is? And Kenyon Martin, as "strong" as he may have been, doesn't mean he had his way in the paint. He got most of his points from fastbreaks or alley-oop passes from Kidd. What Kenyon Martin is today is because of Kidd. And as for Jefferson, he was a rookie during their first run.</div>
