Kanter?

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riverman said:
sounds like mushrooms have given you false visions once again .
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No I think my slippage in your drink of 1mg of LSD made you spin into a bed of madness. We really didn't lose Aldridge and Leonard just signed a 5 year 300 mil contract. It will all be over soon
 
magnifier661 said:
No I think my slippage in your drink of 1mg of LSD made you spin into a bed of madness. We really didn't lose Aldridge and Leonard just signed a 5 year 300 mil contract. It will all be over soon
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when you start slipping in my drinks, I'll buy you a set of waterwings.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
OK--per this article here, the Rockets had 60.72 committed to 11 players going into the FA period (not including cap holds). Now, they've also agreed to new deals with Brewer (24/3) and Beverley (25/4)--combined salaries for those two for next year is 13.5M. Plus, the hold for Sam Dekker is 1.37M. So, their committed and agreed salaries for 2015 presently add to over 75M. Matching a non-tax MLE deal for McDaniels would put them over $80M.

Yes, they can use the non-tax MLE to match an offer for McDaniels, but it's important to note that would actually put them on a hard cap for the 2015-16 season; they would by rule not be permitted to exceed the luxury tax number. If they plan on keeping Terry and Smith, or signing (second-round pick) Montrezl Harrell, matching a McDaniels offer could make things very difficult.
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They don't have to sign brewer and Beverley until they've dealt with McDaniels and Smith. Their lower cap holds apply until they do sign. I presume they'll manage to go over the apron by doing their signings in the right order.
 
Denny Crane said:
They don't have to sign brewer and Beverley until they've dealt with McDaniels and Smith. Their lower cap holds apply until they do sign. I presume they'll manage to go over the apron by doing their signings in the right order.
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Yes, they can try to massage things by doing them in a particular order, but by league rule, if they use the non-taxpayer MLE, they are not permitted to go over the apron at all, regardless of what cap exceptions they might have.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28
 
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Kanter would be a boost but I'm not sure they do it. He's very young which supports the Blazers might go after him BUT they want friend contracts so there might be a problem there. I think the Thunder is reluctant to pay him, otherwise he would have signed by now.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Yes, they can try to massage things by doing them in a particular order, but by league rule, if they use the non-taxpayer MLE, they are not permitted to go over the apron at all, regardless of what cap exceptions they might have.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q28
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But...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14

They use a slightly different calculation for determining the team salary in relation to the apron -- the point $4 million over the tax line. This applies to the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 25), and for Sign-and-Trade transactions (see question number 91). For these purposes they use the team salary as defined above, with the following modifications:5

  • All unlikely bonuses are included for contracts and extensions signed under the current CBA.
  • Amounts that could be included in team salary as the result of certain grievances are included.
  • For rookies and players with one year of experience who were signed as free agents (not as draft picks) and whose salary is less than the two-year minimum salary, the two-year minimum salary is used in place of their actual salary.
  • For the team's restricted free agents, the amount of any outstanding qualifying offer or first refusal exercise notice (both including unlikely bonuses), whichever is greater, are included.
  • The amount of any required tenders for the team's draft picks is included (80% of the scale salary for first round picks; the rookie minimum salary for second round picks).
  • Cap holds for free agents are excluded.
  • Cap holds for first round draft picks are excluded.
  • Cap holds for the team's outstanding exceptions are excluded.
 
Denny Crane said:
But...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14

They use a slightly different calculation for determining the team salary in relation to the apron -- the point $4 million over the tax line. This applies to the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 25), and for Sign-and-Trade transactions (see question number 91). For these purposes they use the team salary as defined above, with the following modifications:5

  • All unlikely bonuses are included for contracts and extensions signed under the current CBA.
  • Amounts that could be included in team salary as the result of certain grievances are included.
  • For rookies and players with one year of experience who were signed as free agents (not as draft picks) and whose salary is less than the two-year minimum salary, the two-year minimum salary is used in place of their actual salary.
  • For the team's restricted free agents, the amount of any outstanding qualifying offer or first refusal exercise notice (both including unlikely bonuses), whichever is greater, are included.
  • The amount of any required tenders for the team's draft picks is included (80% of the scale salary for first round picks; the rookie minimum salary for second round picks).
  • Cap holds for free agents are excluded.
  • Cap holds for first round draft picks are excluded.
  • Cap holds for the team's outstanding exceptions are excluded.
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That still doesn't change the factual basis of anything I posted. Use of the NTPMLE hard-caps them--in terms of actual salaries--at the tax line. Exceptions are irrelevant when the hard cap is involved.
 
They're nowhere near the apron using these calculations.

Terry doesn't count. The draft picks don't count. The MLE doesn't count either, nor BAE. Things you figured puts them over.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
OK--per this article here, the Rockets had 60.72 committed to 11 players going into the FA period (not including cap holds). Now, they've also agreed to new deals with Brewer (24/3) and Beverley (25/4)--combined salaries for those two for next year is 13.5M. Plus, the hold for Sam Dekker is 1.37M. So, their committed and agreed salaries for 2015 presently add to over 75M. Matching a non-tax MLE deal for McDaniels would put them over $80M.

Yes, they can use the non-tax MLE to match an offer for McDaniels, but it's important to note that would actually put them on a hard cap for the 2015-16 season; they would by rule not be permitted to exceed the luxury tax number. If they plan on keeping Terry and Smith, or signing (second-round pick) Montrezl Harrell, matching a McDaniels offer could make things very difficult.
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For hard cap/apron purposes, their cap is $60M. Even with Brewer and Beverly, they are $6M under the LT, $10m under the apron. MLE fits.
 
Denny Crane said:
For hard cap/apron purposes, their cap is $60M. Even with Brewer and Beverly, their $6M under the LT, $10m under the apron. MLE fits.
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Unless they plan on trying to ALSO bring back Smith/Terry and actually sign on or both of their draft picks, in which case they then would only have $4M remaining under the hard cap in which to do so.
 
Denny Crane said:
They're nowhere near the apron using these calculations.

Terry doesn't count. The draft picks don't count. The MLE doesn't count either, nor BAE. Things you figured puts them over.
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No, I only figured actual salaries--either those to which they're already committed ($60M), or those they plan to pay this season (13.5 Brewer/Beverley, 1.3 Dekker, 5.5 McDaniels). Those all combine to over $80M, which puts them very close to the tax line which they would not be permitted to cross if they use the NTPMLE.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Unless they plan on trying to ALSO bring back Smith/Terry and actually sign on or both of their draft picks, in which case they then would only have $4M remaining under the hard cap in which to do so.
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I'd wait until after using the MLE.

The Nets managed to go WAY over the apron the year they got KG from Boston.

It seems they can offer Smith $2.4M. He's either going to take it or not. He's still getting paid by Detroit, too.

The order is something like:

1) sign brewer to go from $60m to $68m, over the cap
2) use MLE
3) sign Beverly
4) sign Terry

At this point, they're over the apron. I think they can still sign their own FAs using exceptions.
 
Denny Crane said:
But...

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14

They use a slightly different calculation for determining the team salary in relation to the apron -- the point $4 million over the tax line. This applies to the Bi-Annual, Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level, and Taxpayer Mid-Level exceptions (see question number 25), and for Sign-and-Trade transactions (see question number 91). For these purposes they use the team salary as defined above, with the following modifications:5

  • All unlikely bonuses are included for contracts and extensions signed under the current CBA.
  • Amounts that could be included in team salary as the result of certain grievances are included.
  • For rookies and players with one year of experience who were signed as free agents (not as draft picks) and whose salary is less than the two-year minimum salary, the two-year minimum salary is used in place of their actual salary.
  • For the team's restricted free agents, the amount of any outstanding qualifying offer or first refusal exercise notice (both including unlikely bonuses), whichever is greater, are included.
  • The amount of any required tenders for the team's draft picks is included (80% of the scale salary for first round picks; the rookie minimum salary for second round picks).
  • Cap holds for free agents are excluded.
  • Cap holds for first round draft picks are excluded.
  • Cap holds for the team's outstanding exceptions are excluded.
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You are counting underlined items. Brewer counts as $0, for example. Decker is $0, too.
 
Denny Crane said:
I'd wait until after using the MLE.

The Nets managed to go WAY over the apron the year they got KG from Boston.

It seems they can offer Smith $2.4M. He's either going to take it or not. He's still getting paid by Detroit, too.

The order is something like:

1) sign brewer to go from $60m to $68m, over the cap
2) use MLE
3) sign Beverly
4) sign Terry

At this point, they're over the apron. I think they can still sign their own FAs using exceptions.
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And what you are apparently missing is that if they use the MLE, they would not be allowed to go over the apron to sign Terry. That's the whole point of the hard cap section I linked to.
 
Denny Crane said:
Doesn't apply because they are at $60m, not near the LT. $21M under.

Deeks explains it here:

http://www.shamsports.com/2012/08/addendum-to-teague-story-bulls-salary.html
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That article says EXACTLY what I've been saying: Once a team uses some provision of the CBA that is only available to teams that are below the apron (like the NTPMLE)--regardless of what their team salary was when they used said provision--they are then completely prohibited from exceeding the apron at any point for the remainder of that league year.

So, if Houston uses the NTPMLE to sign McDaniels--even if they are only at $60M when they do--they will then be prohibited from exceeding the apron at any point, even to re-sign their own free agents.

It's really not that complicated.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
That article says EXACTLY what I've been saying: Once a team uses some provision of the CBA that is only available to teams that are below the apron (like the NTPMLE)--regardless of what their team salary was when they used said provision--they are then completely prohibited from exceeding the apron at any point for the remainder of that league year.

So, if Houston uses the NTPMLE to sign McDaniels--even if they are only at $60M when they do--they will then be prohibited from exceeding the apron at any point, even to re-sign their own free agents.

It's really not that complicated.
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The Bulls use of MLE put them over LT. Houston's use won't.

That's why the apron isn't a factor here.

If the Bulls did S&T, they could have used MLE AND gone over the apron using exceptions, like Teague's 120%, vet minimum, etc.

Houston signing guys after MLE to go over the apron is the Teague situation.

Read Deeks again ;)
 
Had the S&T been done, Belinelli could then have signed for his BAE amount using the non-taxpayer MLE to do so. If a team signs a player using the non-taxpayer MLE for an amount smaller than the taxpayer MLE, it is treated as though the taxpayer MLE was used instead, for the purposes of establishing whether or not the apron can be exceeded. (Put in practice, if you sign someone using the NTPMLE, but pay them less than $3.09 million in the first year, which is what the TPMLE is this year, you can still go over the apron.) Therefore, had Hinrich not taken the MLE, Belinelli could have done, and the whole thing would have been treated as though only the TPMLE was used, Chicago could sign as many minimum salaries as they have roster space, and give Teague 120% without any repercussions apart from the luxury tax incurred. But this is not what happened.
 
Denny Crane said:
The Bulls use of MLE put them over LT. Houston's use won't.

That's why the apron isn't a factor here.

If the Bulls did S&T, they could have used MLE AND gone over the apron using exceptions, like Teague's 120%, vet minimum, etc.

Houston signing guys after MLE to go over the apron is the Teague situation.

Read Deeks again ;)
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I read it. I understand it. I'm done trying to explain it to you. It's not worth my time.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I read it. I understand it. I'm done trying to explain it to you. It's not worth my time.
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Fine, but all the analysts are saying what I'm saying. I explained why it is, with quotes from Deeks and showed you the CBA FAQ section why your calculations are way off.

But... Whatever...
 
Denny Crane said:
Fine, but all the analysts are saying what I'm saying. I explained why it is, with quotes from Deeks and showed you the CBA FAQ section why your calculations are way off.

But... Whatever...
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All the parts you quoted said was that the Bulls needed to sign their FA for an amount smaller than the TPMLE in order to be able to exceed the apron, which (again) is what I've been saying.

What analyst is saying anything like what you're saying?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
All the parts you quoted said was that the Bulls needed to sign their FA for an amount smaller than the TPMLE in order to be able to exceed the apron, which (again) is what I've been saying.

What analyst is saying anything like what you're saying?
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The Bulls use of the MLE put them over the LT and under the apron. That's why the amount mattered.

Houston is at $60M for apron purposes, nowhere near LT. Use of MLE won't put them over the LT. They're not capped at the apron. As Deeks wrote, they can sign as many vet minimum contracts as they have roster spots and go over the apron. I'm pretty sure they can use bird, early bird, non bird, etc. to go over the apron.

The analysts say Houston can use full NTPMLE to match McDaniels AND at least vet minimum to re-sign Terry.

It's in your own link where you got you salary figures...

http://rockets.clutchfans.net/8859/houston-rockets-salary-cap-update-2015-offseason/

K.J. McDaniels: The decision with McDaniels will likely be one of the hardest decisions of the offseason for Houston. A young player with high upside, there will certainly be several teams that come calling for McDaniels’s services. But the Rockets are limited to either their qualifying offer ($1.05 million) or tapping into the MLE (or cap room) to re-sign K.J.

Corey Brewer: After waiving his player option as a condition to his trade to Houston last December (an option that he undoubtedly would not have exercised anyway based on his late season performance), Brewer will become an unrestricted free agent on July 1. The Rockets hold Early Bird rights to Brewer, which means that they can offer him a deal starting as high as about $8.23 million. As it is unlikely that Brewer will do better than that (or even get that high an offer from the Rockets), Houston should be able to exceed the cap in order to retain Brewer if the sides can agree on a deal.
 
Denny Crane said:
The Bulls use of the MLE put them over the LT and under the apron. That's why the amount mattered.

Houston is at $60M for apron purposes, nowhere near LT. Use of MLE won't put them over the LT. They're not capped at the apron. As Deeks wrote, they can sign as many vet minimum contracts as they have roster spots and go over the apron. I'm pretty sure they can use bird, early bird, non bird, etc. to go over the apron.

The analysts say Houston can use full NTPMLE to match McDaniels AND at least vet minimum to re-sign Terry.

It's in your own link where you got you salary figures...

http://rockets.clutchfans.net/8859/houston-rockets-salary-cap-update-2015-offseason/

K.J. McDaniels: The decision with McDaniels will likely be one of the hardest decisions of the offseason for Houston. A young player with high upside, there will certainly be several teams that come calling for McDaniels’s services. But the Rockets are limited to either their qualifying offer ($1.05 million) or tapping into the MLE (or cap room) to re-sign K.J.

Corey Brewer: After waiving his player option as a condition to his trade to Houston last December (an option that he undoubtedly would not have exercised anyway based on his late season performance), Brewer will become an unrestricted free agent on July 1. The Rockets hold Early Bird rights to Brewer, which means that they can offer him a deal starting as high as about $8.23 million. As it is unlikely that Brewer will do better than that (or even get that high an offer from the Rockets), Houston should be able to exceed the cap in order to retain Brewer if the sides can agree on a deal.
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Nowhere does it at they can use the FULL NTPMLE and ALSO exceed the apron.

Because you can't.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Nowhere does it at they can use the FULL NTPMLE and ALSO exceed the apron.

Because you can't.
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Because using the MLE put the Bulls over the LT and under the apron. If the Bulls did the S&T, they'd have been under the LT.

By your own figuring, even countin Brewer, Beverly, and use of the full MLE, they're under the LT anyway.
 
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