Keith Olbermann's New Special Comment

[crowTrobot]

That is the whole problem with Liberal agenda. If I don't agree with what you do, I'm a bigot or ignorant. Why can't I have a different opinion, and why can't I believe that marriage should be between a man and a women?

you can believe whatever you want, but you don't get to force your beliefs on other people. this is nothing more than an issue of religious "values". by making it a matter of popular vote we are effectively forcing religion on people, which is unconstitutional. i'm sure there will be a huge trend-setting lawsuit on this topic before too long, just as there was with teaching creationism in science classes.

even if my religious beliefs do not agree with their life style. How am I a bigot?

you answered your own question. people who don't believe in values based ONLY in religious tradition and not actual socially-tested morality should not be subject to them. if you say they should you are a religious bigot.

Maybe there is something in the genes that makes people gay. There is not a lick of scientific evidence of this. Alcholism, yes. Gayness, no.

actually there's some tentative evidence that hasn't been verified yet, not that that's really of any relevance.

Answer this for me.
Should a mother be allowed to marry her 18 year old son?
Should a brother be able to marry his sister if both are adults?
Should a man be able to have more than 1 wife?

we have evidence those things are socially harmful. no such evidence exists for gay marriage. it's an affront to fundamentalist christians (which unfortunately includes a lot of blacks in california), but otherwise there is no valid argument for it being socially harmful.

 

[bodyman5001]

you can believe whatever you want, but you don't get to force your beliefs on other people. this is nothing more than an issue of religious "values". by making it a matter of popular vote we are effectively forcing religion on people, which is unconstitutional. i'm sure there will be a huge trend-setting lawsuit on this topic before too long, just as there was with teaching creationism in science classes.



you answered your own question. people who don't believe in values based ONLY in religious tradition and not actual socially-tested morality should not be subject to them. if you say they should you are a religious bigot.



actually there's some tentative evidence that hasn't been verified yet, not that that's really of any relevance.




we have evidence those things are socially harmful. no such evidence exists for gay marriage. it's an affront to fundamentalist christians (which unfortunately includes a lot of blacks in california), but otherwise there is no valid argument for it being socially harmful.

Socially harmful. There is evidence that MTV is socially harmful, yet gay marriage isn't?

OK

It is a matter of perspective in that regard.

 

[crowTrobot]

Socially harmful. There is evidence that MTV is socially harmful, yet gay marriage isn't?

nothing personal, but that's probably the dumbest thing i've ever seen posted in these forums.

It is a matter of perspective in that regard.

no it's not. you can empirically demonstrate that a woman marrying her child is socially harmful. you can't do that for gay marriage. it's not a matter of perspective. it's a matter of christians wanting to force their "traditional values" on america.

 

[bodyman5001]

nothing personal, but that's probably the dumbest thing i've ever seen posted in these forums.





no it's not. you can empirically demonstrate that a woman marrying her child is socially harmful. you can't do that for gay marriage. it's not a matter of perspective. it's a matter of christians wanting to force their "traditional values" on america.

What goes around comes around. As I have told others many times, you thinking that something I wrote is stupid makes me think that YOU are stupid.

If you don't think that MTV is socially harmful then you are obviously cool with transexual porn stars wanting to be prom queen. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Do you know any barnyard animals capable of making a legal commitment?

Keep your fucking insults to yourself.

I saw on local news the first couple to have their marriage stopped. Their appointment was Nov. 5. Prop H8 was leading but not yet declared passed. They got the license, started the ceremony in their matching tuxes and flowers, and partway through Prop H8 was certified as having passed, so the ceremony had to be halted. They were middle aged men and both broke down sobbing.

Take your fucking barnyard animal comparison and stick it right up your ass. And I do not apologize for the language.

You can't have it both ways, you know. 18,000 same sex couples were married between May and November. My cousin among them. Now the bigots are trying to take away the marriages that have already happened. About 8000 of those couples have children. They would become out of wedlock children, in plain language, bastards. All this in the name of protecting marriage and protecting children.

You can't take away what people most cherish, gloat over it, and they say, gee, let's all shake hands now.

Fuck you and your barnyard animals.

Barnyard animal was a poor choice.

If they most cherish a particular way of having sex, that's their call. Not the government's. Not mine. Nothing makes them more or less a "couple". No one's saying they can't have civil unions (though I'm rehashing Minstrel's "separate but equal" argument, which I don't agree is relevant to this, but that's another thread). And if they have children, it goes to show (though I'm treading ignorant ground here, I don't know the laws) that the government isn't taking away their ability to have a family. But you're telling me children of civil unions are bastards, but those in same-sex marriages aren't? What about common-law marriages? What about kids whose parents are divorced, or unwed single mothers?

This may not get me bonus points, but if I have two women who I love and consensually want to marry me, why can the government tell me that's illegal? Or 4? I think that we just have to face that our country is made up of an amalgam of people (who may or may not be ignorant sheep) who may think differently than we do, but the Law of the Land is still just that. My views on abortion are irrelevant to the government b/c it's been decided by the SCOTUS. My views on suicide don't matter to them because suicide is generally illegal. My views on divorce don't matter b/c the laws have been made. I think this is just an issue where most of the country/state doesn't agree with what you want. If you feel that it's an issue of bigotry or injustice, there are plenty of ways to protest that.

 

[MARIS61]

If you don't think that MTV is socially harmful then you are obviously cool with transexual porn stars wanting to be prom queen.

Haven't watched MTV since the 80's (back when they played music videos) but I see nothing wrong with transexual porn stars having high school social ambitions.

 

[crowTrobot]

What goes around comes around. As I have told others many times, you thinking that something I wrote is stupid makes me think that YOU are stupid.

i think something you wrote makes no sense. MTV has nothing to do with gay marriage rights, and as far as i know nobody is legislating to ban MTV. it would help if you could explain what the heck you're talking about.

 

[MARIS61]

Obi make some good points, and no one is telling Gays that they cannot love and have relationships. Gays should have all of the rights that all of us have. But marriage is, has been and always will be about a 1 man and 1 women. If marriage should be a right to all who are in love, shouldn't we allow polygamy? If a brother and sister are in love, shouldn't we allow them to get married? By making an exception to allow same sex marriages, you are opening the door to a much broader issue.

And also, I am tired of Gays comparing themselves to Blacks. It is a disgrace and one that over 70% of Blacks in California agree with. They voted overwhelmingly to pass Prop 8. You cannot change from being Black to being white. But you supposedly can change from being straight to being gay. Look at Lindsey Lohan. She is in love with a women, but says she isn't gay. I don't think that is a genetic thing. Most gays say they were born that way. Huh? It is a behavioral choice, and a choice that is their right. They should never be persecuted for it. I will stand with them for their true civil rights against hate crimes and wrongful termination. But Marriage? No. They have the same rights I have when it comes to marriage. If they want to get married, they can get married to someone of the opposite sex. Just because they don't like the choices doesn't mean that the government should have to support it and give them the same tax benifits that traditional marriages receive.

Okay, I'm a bit confused.

I have assumed from your avatar that you are gay, and quite proud of it. But here you are offering the standard innaccurate, unsupportable, thinly disguised rant of bigotry that I expect from cowardly homophobes with a 3rd grade education.

Are you gay or not?

 

[Денг Гордон]

For the people opposed to gay marriage, why does it matter to you whether gays get marriaged or not? How does it decrease the sanctity of marriage? How does it make your marriage worse for a gay person to get married?

 

[MARIS61]

As far as I'm concerned, gays marrying gays is fine. Should they adopt, though, I'd just have reservations about them denying their child(ren) the natural right to having, both, a mother and a father.

I believe if they are adopted, they have already previously been denied having a mom and dad, either because their parents didn't want them, or due to tragic circumstances.

There are over 210 Million orphans in the world as we speak.

210 Million!

For comparison, the United States has a total population of 300 Million people.

If someone has the heart, and the courage to make the commitment to raise one of these poor kids who currently have not only no future but no present to speak of, I say to you "get the fuck out of their way and let them be human".

210 Million Orphans!

 

[BrianFromWA]

For the people opposed to gay marriage, why does it matter to you whether gays get marriaged or not? How does it decrease the sanctity of marriage? How does it make your marriage worse for a gay person to get married?

I can't speak for others, and I'm not very good at this one. I admit that it's a personal bias...not against people having same-sex relationships, but in minority groups of any kind feeling entitled to things that they've chosen not to be part of.

I know that doesn't sound right, and I'm not attempting to sway you or to be logical...I'm just putting myself out there. For me (as one that many might call a "whacked-out fundamentalist Christian"), I believe that marriage is one man and one woman. I also personally don't agree with divorces, because in my marriage vows I promised in a "covenant" (much more binding than a promise) that i wouldn't part with my wife until death. I know that those words are trampled on by many, and that our society has legislated that divorces are fine if done legally. I have to live with that. And if my wife chose to divorce me, I would have no recourse. Maybe people think that's good, too.

I don't personally care how anyone except me and my wife have sex, as long as it's within the laws of the land. (I don't want to see a sex show on the street corner, or have porn on billboards outside schools). If you choose to be in a same-sex relationship, that's great for you. But part of that (at least for me) is recognizing that the consequences of that are that you won't be eligible for "marriage", only civil unions, since that's the way the laws are written. I don't personally see it as a topic that puts down rights of anybody, though I know that's a point of contention for some.

This probably just muddied up what I meant to say. Sorry. Let me know if there's more you'd like me to elaborate on.

 

[crowTrobot]

the natural right to having, both, a mother and a father.

you mean traditional right, not natural. two parents raising a child is a traditional social construct, not a natural one. for most mammal species young are either raised by one parent or communally, and it appears primitive humans lived in communal units, not 2 parent families.

 

[bodyman5001]

i think something you wrote makes no sense. MTV has nothing to do with gay marriage rights, and as far as i know nobody is legislating to ban MTV. it would help if you could explain what the heck you're talking about.

It was really only one sentence, but if you didn't understand what I meant I don't see how that could be the dumbest thing you have ever read in these forums? Sounds like more of a knee jerk reaction to something than a thought out response.





I guess you would need to define what you mean by socially harmful. You said a man having two wives is socially harmful. How does that harm society? Less chicks for losers? One wife beater turns into a serial wife beater through sheer numbers?

You said there was evidence that this was socially harmful, but that there isn't any evidence that gay marriage is harmful.

My question is what does harmful mean to you? I believe that MTV has harmed society by celebrating people with ideals that most people would frown upon.

Teens learned to wear their pants at their knees somewhere, girls these days wear clothes that strippers used to be ashamed of. They got the ideas for this somewhere, I feel that there is evidence that MTV (and others) glorify this shit.

More on topic, doesn't anyone just think that some things are just better? Being gay doesn't have to be wrong, but can't anyone admit that it just isn't ideal?

I saw a documentary once that showed a family of deaf people. One child was a good candidate for a cochlear implant (might have spelled that waaaaaaaaaay wrong) but the parents were really torn as to whether the child should have it.

They didn't want to make the kid think that being deaf is wrong, or something to be ashamed of. I understood their feelings, but couldn't see why they didn't realize that having hearing is just better.

NOTE...There may be other reasons the implant was bad for the deaf kid, but in the documentary that wasn't what they were worried about. It basically boiled down to being able to hear or not.

 

[Денг Гордон]

I can't speak for others, and I'm not very good at this one. I admit that it's a personal bias...not against people having same-sex relationships, but in minority groups of any kind feeling entitled to things that they've chosen not to be part of.

I know that doesn't sound right, and I'm not attempting to sway you or to be logical...I'm just putting myself out there. For me (as one that many might call a "whacked-out fundamentalist Christian"), I believe that marriage is one man and one woman. I also personally don't agree with divorces, because in my marriage vows I promised in a "covenant" (much more binding than a promise) that i wouldn't part with my wife until death. I know that those words are trampled on by many, and that our society has legislated that divorces are fine if done legally. I have to live with that. And if my wife chose to divorce me, I would have no recourse. Maybe people think that's good, too.

I don't personally care how anyone except me and my wife have sex, as long as it's within the laws of the land. (I don't want to see a sex show on the street corner, or have porn on billboards outside schools). If you choose to be in a same-sex relationship, that's great for you. But part of that (at least for me) is recognizing that the consequences of that are that you won't be eligible for "marriage", only civil unions, since that's the way the laws are written. I don't personally see it as a topic that puts down rights of anybody, though I know that's a point of contention for some.

This probably just muddied up what I meant to say. Sorry. Let me know if there's more you'd like me to elaborate on.

But up until last Tuesday, it was THE LAW for gays to be able to marry. The law was changed on them.

Perhaps all couples, male-female, male-male, and female-female should only be able to get civil unions, and then marriage would be a separate ceremony, in the church. That should please the Christians.

Christians altered the law from what it originally was. In the Roman empires, gays were allowed to marry up until the 4th century when....a Christian emperor made it illegal.

If we are going to go base don tradition, then marriage should include all couples, whether MF, MM, or FF.

 

[BrianFromWA]

But up until last Tuesday, it was THE LAW for gays to be able to marry. The law was changed on them.

Perhaps all couples, male-female, male-male, and female-female should only be able to get civil unions, and then marriage would be a separate ceremony, in the church. That should please the Christians.

Honestly, I don't think I have a problem with that. I still ask the question about polygamy, but it's not that huge a deal for me.

And again, I don't know the laws on this, but I thought it was a law that they couldn't. Then the Mayor of SF started doing it, and no one was stopping him? (I may have this totally wrong, I saw it on french TV in Africa and my translations aren't that great). So they put it up for a vote, and it didn't pass. Right?

 

[bodyman5001]

Ok, realize that I ain't fer no gayz marriagaing...but listen.

I personally believe that a lot of people have wicked desires in their minds that they don't WANT to have.

You read about some dude in love with a horse and you think damn that is one sick MOTHERFUCKER. Then you think, wait a minute, there are billions of people in this world. What are the odds that dude is the only one?

(NO, I don't want no horse. I just wouldn't mind having like 10, maybe 200 wives)

So, just on a hunch I think that there are probably plenty of people who fight against gay marriage because they are afraid that once that hurdle is passed maybe their own wicked desires might be more accepted.

I think this is what drives the slippery slope analogy.

If it sounds like I haven't thought this through very well, it might be TRUE BITCHES.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Polygamy has such negative feedback because really the only polygamy information that you really hear about is the stereotyping head-lining "POLYGAMY SECT LEADER WHO FORCED MULTIPLE THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRLS TO MARRY HIM NOW IN CUSTODY AND WAITING TO BE ARRAIGNED".

I've no problem really with polygamy as long as all entering parties are adults and consenting; although, I would prefer that they have a detailed family line they keep track of and pass on to their children so we could avoid half brother/half sister relationships.

Someone else brought up brother/sister and mother/son etc relationships. The issue with brother/sister relationships that is pregnancy resulting from these unions have a 17% birth defect rate, which is up from the I believe 3% of non-sibling unions. First cousin relationships that result in pregnancy and birth have a tiny, tiny above average birth defect rating with 4-7%. In 19 states first cousins are allowed to get married, and only 1 requires genetic screening.

This is your odd information for the day.

 

[crowTrobot]

I guess you would need to define what you mean by socially harmful. You said a man having two wives is socially harmful. How does that harm society? Less chicks for losers? One wife beater turns into a serial wife beater through sheer numbers?

i was referring mainly to immediate family sexual relationships which can have psychological, as well as potentially genetic consequences, and can certainly lead to parental abuse if they are legalized. i don't think polygamy is necessarily harmful for people that believe in it or mutually genuinely consent to it as adults. the trouble it also can potentially be abused when children are forced or brainwashed into it for the sake of religious belief, although that's a separate issue.

anyway the parallel between incest and gay marriage between 2 consenting adults was stupid.

My question is what does harmful mean to you? I believe that MTV has harmed society by celebrating people with ideals that most people would frown upon.

so do you believe MTV is actually socially harmful in a secular sense, or is it just harmful because it goes against traditional religious values? huge difference.

More on topic, doesn't anyone just think that some things are just better? Being gay doesn't have to be wrong, but can't anyone admit that it just isn't ideal?

I saw a documentary once that showed a family of deaf people. One child was a good candidate for a cochlear implant (might have spelled that waaaaaaaaaay wrong) but the parents were really torn as to whether the child should have it.

They didn't want to make the kid think that being deaf is wrong, or something to be ashamed of. I understood their feelings, but couldn't see why they didn't realize that having hearing is just better.

NOTE...There may be other reasons the implant was bad for the deaf kid, but in the documentary that wasn't what they were worried about. It basically boiled down to being able to hear or not.

you just compared being gay to being physically handicapped. come on.

 

[bodyman5001]

i was referring mainly to immediate family sexual relationships which can have psychological, as well as potentially genetic consequences, and can certainly lead to parental abuse if they are legalized. i don't think polygamy is necessarily harmful for people that believe in it or mutually genuinely consent to it as adults. the trouble it also can potentially be abused when children are forced or brainwashed into it for the sake of religious belief, although that's a separate issue.

anyway the parallel between incest and gay marriage between 2 consenting adults was stupid.



so do you believe MTV is actually socially harmful in a secular sense, or is it just harmful because it goes against traditional religious values? huge difference.







you just compared being gay to being physically handicapped. come on.

What is wrong with that? Deaf people don't choose to be gay and gay people don't choose to be deaf. I suspect that neither of them would choose to be either one of them. In another thread, Maris tells me that they use the word challenged, doesn't mean it is bad, just that there are obstacles. Being gay will probably always be a challenge somehow.

If you don't believe that, what about those people they say are body dysmorphic? (or something like that)

These poor people feel like they are in the wrong body, that has to suck. I don't know what I would do if I turned into a chick right now other than become a lesbian. And a stripper if I was hot.

I wouldn't choose to be overweight (but I am)
I wouldn't choose to have a bad temper (but I have one) ...I work on it constantly though.



MTV is harmful if you don't want your children to be brain dead idiots. Watch that shit if you don't understand.



I don't give a fuck about traditional religion, however I believe it does give us a way of keeping people from doing everything they want without fear of the damage it could cause. If everyone just did what they wanted to do, our society would collapse. Or it would have collapsed already, instead of a few years down the road.

 

[gambitnut]

I can't speak for others, and I'm not very good at this one. I admit that it's a personal bias...not against people having same-sex relationships, but in minority groups of any kind feeling entitled to things that they've chosen not to be part of.

I know that doesn't sound right, and I'm not attempting to sway you or to be logical...I'm just putting myself out there. For me (as one that many might call a "whacked-out fundamentalist Christian"), I believe that marriage is one man and one woman. I also personally don't agree with divorces, because in my marriage vows I promised in a "covenant" (much more binding than a promise) that i wouldn't part with my wife until death. I know that those words are trampled on by many, and that our society has legislated that divorces are fine if done legally. I have to live with that. And if my wife chose to divorce me, I would have no recourse. Maybe people think that's good, too.

I don't personally care how anyone except me and my wife have sex, as long as it's within the laws of the land. (I don't want to see a sex show on the street corner, or have porn on billboards outside schools). If you choose to be in a same-sex relationship, that's great for you. But part of that (at least for me) is recognizing that the consequences of that are that you won't be eligible for "marriage", only civil unions, since that's the way the laws are written. I don't personally see it as a topic that puts down rights of anybody, though I know that's a point of contention for some.

This probably just muddied up what I meant to say. Sorry. Let me know if there's more you'd like me to elaborate on.

I think you explained your position just fine, and I find it helpful to know where you are coming from. It seems that both you and Furball are bringing up the same issue. Do gay people choose to love people of the same sex only? My feeling is that they aren't any more than straight people choose to love people of the opposite sex only, but let's see if we can get a little data on the subject. Crandc, have you ever, at any time in your life, felt sexually attracted to/in love with men?

 

[ABM]

you mean traditional right, not natural.

Natural, meaning it took, both, a mother and father to conceive said child.

 

[crowTrobot]

What is wrong with that? Deaf people don't choose to be gay and gay people don't choose to be deaf. I suspect that neither of them would choose to be either one of them. In another thread, Maris tells me that they use the word challenged, doesn't mean it is bad, just that there are obstacles. Being gay will probably always be a challenge somehow.

that boggles my mind. i have never heard a gay person say they felt it was a handicap, and if they did think so it would only be because of the pressure of ignorant religious prejudice to conform.

MTV is harmful if you don't want your children to be brain dead idiots. Watch that shit if you don't understand.

your opinion. i grew up watching MTV and the music exposed me to a lot of culture that my life would have otherwise lacked. it didn't make me a sex-crazed socially harmful deviant. and again i don't see anyone legislating to ban MTV, so not sure what your point is in the first place.

I don't give a fuck about traditional religion, however I believe it does give us a way of keeping people from doing everything they want without fear of the damage it could cause. If everyone just did what they wanted to do, our society would collapse. Or it would have collapsed already, instead of a few years down the road.

so gay marriage would help speed the collapse of society and traditional religious values are the only reason it hasn't collapsed already? you should study western europe.

 

[crowTrobot]

Natural, meaning it took, both, a mother and father to conceive said child.

no that's not what you meant obviously. you're meant "natural right" to be raised by mother & father. it would be pretty hard for someone to be conceived without an egg and sperm.

 

[crandc]

Obi make some good points, and no one is telling Gays that they cannot love and have relationships. Gays should have all of the rights that all of us have. But marriage is, has been and always will be about a 1 man and 1 women..

Actually, no, it has not. Read your bible. How many wives did Soloman have? In Islamic law, to this day, a man may have four wives.

How do you say we should have all the rights you have, then in the next sentence say we should not? Either we have equal rights or we don't.

BTW, a LOT of people say gays cannot love and have relationships. They are the ones who put prop H8 on the ballot.

And BTW, a lot of people are black and gay. Not every gay person is a middle class white man, you know.

The issue is not what anyone personally believe. My observant Jewish family believes that G-d prohibits eating a pepperoni pizza. It is what you put into law for the rest of the world. In a secular society, your religious beliefs should not rule my life. Any more than I would prevent you from going to Pizza Hut.

 

[crandc]

. Crandc, have you ever, at any time in your life, felt sexually attracted to/in love with men?

I'll agree to answer that question if every self identified heterosexual on this board answers, publicly, one question.

Have you ever felt sexually attracted to, or in love with, someone of your own sex?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

That is the whole problem with Liberal agenda. If I don't agree with what you do, I'm a bigot or ignorant. Why can't I have a different opinion, and why can't I believe that marriage should be between a man and a women?

I also believe in affirmative action and I'm a Republican. What does that make me?

I'm an educated city boy who has had gay friends and relatives. I think they are wonderful people, even if my religious beliefs do not agree with their life style. How am I a bigot?

Maybe there is something in the genes that makes people gay. There is not a lick of scientific evidence of this. Alcholism, yes. Gayness, no. There are some people who are gay because they like to be different. Just like the people who walk around with Mowhawks.

And being gay does not make you a minority. That is ridiculous that a behavior would be considered a protected class.

Answer this for me.
Should a mother be allowed to marry her 18 year old son?
Should a brother be able to marry his sister if both are adults?
Should a man be able to have more than 1 wife?
Why do we look at those as taboo, but homosexual marriage should be accepted?
It's because marriage should be between a Man and woman.

No, if you are not a liberal you are clearly an enemy of the state and should have no rights. Least of all the right to vote.

Like you, I've always wondered why liberals have that mentality.

 

[ABM]

no that's not what you meant obviously..

It's exactly what meant.

Meaning, if it took a man and woman to conceive the child, then, IMO, that child has (er, should have) the natural "right" to be raised by them, as well.

If it doesn't turn out that way.......it's certainly not in that child's control.

 

[ABM]

Have you ever felt sexually attracted to, or in love with, someone of your own sex?

BLAZER PROPHET and I have had our moments......................then he farts and the feeling passes (no pun intended).

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

blazer prophet and i have had our moments......................then he farts and the feeling passes (no pun intended).

wtf??????

Leave me out of your little queer conversations.

 

[ABM]

wtf??????

Leave me out of your little queer conversations.

Oh, geeze, NOW you say that!