OT Killing Babies (Bill 669)

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SlyPokerDog said:
Yes, and the bullshit article you posted was from today and it intentionally omitted the updated and most recent revision of the bill in an attempt to solicit donations.
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Yet it took a court hearing to clean up the Bill. That was my reason for posting it. Good thing there are good folks looking out.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
From the article you just posted:

the bill that seeks to decriminalize infant deaths from pregnancy-related causes

So infant deaths from pregnancy-related causes should be criminalized?!?

What, in your opinion, should be the criminal penalty for a miscarriage?

What, in your opinion, should be the criminal penalty for a genetic defect that results in the infant dying after they are born?
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Again, good folks are looking out. I was simply making reference to that. Oh, and that it wasn't taken from some conservative rag, as sly cat wanted to point out.

"The California Catholic Conference opposes AB 2223 unless amended to definitively exclude infant death due to abuse or neglect."
 
ABM said:
Yet it took a court hearing to clean up the Bill. That was my reason for posting it. Good thing there are good folks looking out.
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There was no court hearing.

The bill was in the judicial committee, the committee held a hearing and made amendments, and then voted to pass the bill to the legislative committee on health.
 
ABM said:
OK, "Hearing".

View attachment 47117
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Yes, lots of government entities have hearings.

School board hearing.

Legislative committee hearing.

City council hearing.

Janurary 6th committee hearing.

Just because they have hearings doesn't mean they are court procedures.

Hearings are held on all proposed bills. This is a completely normal part of the legislative process.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Yes, lots of government entities have hearings.

School board hearing.

Legislative committee hearing.

City council hearing.

Janurary 6th committee hearing.

Just because they have hearings doesn't mean they are court procedures.

Hearings are held on all proposed bills. This is a completely normal part of the legislative process.
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Apparently, you've missed my point, though. The point was/is that the Bill needed to be changed in the first place. The original verbiage was too vague and potentially could have been taken advantage of. My OP stated my concerns. There are terrible people out there that could, yes, kill their own babies.
 
ABM said:
Apparently, Catholics aren't especially enamored with the verbiage.

https://cacatholic.org/article/ab-2223-fails-clarify-question-infanticide-protections
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As a recovered catholic, allow me to respond.

The church is heavily invested in hospitals. Prolonging the death of patients = profit. On the list of evil committed by the church, torturing the terminally ill and their families for profit may not even qualify for the top 10 - but it is still vile. To make it worse, the church itself used to hold that it was OK to let people die in peace and that there was no moral obligation to prolong suffering thru "extraordinary" intervention.

Prolonging death (and suffering) in the name of "pro-life" is sick.
 
oldmangrouch said:
As a recovered catholic, allow me to respond.

The church is heavily invested in hospitals. Prolonging the death of patients = profit. On the list of evil committed by the church, torturing the terminally ill and their families for profit may not even qualify for the top 10 - but it is still vile. To make it worse, the church itself used to hold that it was OK to let people die in peace and that there was no moral obligation to prolong suffering thru "extraordinary" intervention.

Prolonging death (and suffering) in the name of "pro-life" is sick.
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YOU'RE CRITICIZING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?!?!?!?!
 
ABM said:
YOU'RE CRITICIZING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?!?!?!?!
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The first pedo priest to be convicted in court in Oregon was the pastor of the parish I grew up in. I already had disputes with some of the doctrine, but that case and the revelations of cover-up etc were the irrevocable dealbreaker.
 
oldmangrouch said:
The first pedo priest to be convicted in court in Oregon was the pastor of the parish I grew up in. I already had disputes with some of the doctrine, but that case and the revelations of cover-up etc were the irrevocable dealbreaker.
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I want you to know that I was being facetious and that I have many issues with the Catholic Church in general. I only posted that link because @SlyPokerCat was razzing me. That's OK, though. He's probably half-toasted, whipping out one dollar bills at the Acropolis by now. Whatever floats your boat.
 
ABM said:
In some circles, the Catholic Church is described as the Whore of Babylon.

I dunno.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon
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Did you know that before Francis became pope the vatican was well into the process of making a convicted war criminal a saint? Seriously. A Croation bishop who actively worked with the nazis to implement the final solution in the former Yugoslavia.
 
oldmangrouch said:
Did you know that before Francis became pope the vatican was well into the process of making a convicted war criminal a saint? Seriously. A Croation bishop who actively worked with the nazis to implement the final solution in the former Yugoslavia.
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Don't get me started on the Catholic Church.

I WILL be banned!!
 
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ABM said:
I was under the impression it was a self-induced abortion. No?
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Doesn't matter. That's not the law. While you personally may want this woman punished for her evilness, that is not the law.

Texas law bans abortion providers from performing the procedure after about six weeks into pregnancy and from giving patients abortion pills after 49 days from conception.

But there is no Texas law that criminalizes or imposes penalties on people who have abortions.

And state law also explicitly exempts people from criminal homicide charges for having abortions.
 
ABM said:
I was under the impression it was a self-induced abortion. No?
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That particular phrase can mean anything from "she stabbed herself in the abdomen" to "she didn't stop drinking/smoking while pregnant" to "she didn't get as much rest as her Dr recommended."
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Doesn't matter. That's not the law. While you personally may want this woman punished for her evilness, that is not the law.
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Never dispued that. Simply clarifying.
 
ABM said:
Never dispued that. Simply clarifying.
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In the medical setting, miscarriages are often referred to as spontaneous abortions. That does not mean a medical professional or the patient themself took any action to terminate the pregnancy.

And since you're asking for clarification, using the term aborted is not the same as abortion.

Sometimes a pilot will abort the landing of an airplane. That does not mean he took a giant coat hanger and had the passengers ripped out of their seats. It simply means he circled around and attempted to land the plane again.

Saying that the pregnancy was aborted does not always mean an abortion was performed.

Concerning the lady in Texas, no medical records or Grand Jury transcripts have been released so exactly how or why her pregnancy was terminated/aborted is not public knowledge. All that is known is that her lawyer is saying it was a stillbirth and the DA has dropped all charges.
 
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SlyPokerDog said:
In the medical setting, miscarriages are often referred to as spontaneous abortions. That does not mean a medical professional or the patient themself took any action to terminate the pregnancy.

And since you're asking for clarification, using the term aborted is not the same as abortion.

Sometimes a pilot will abort the landing of an airplane. That does not mean he took a giant coat hanger and had the passengers ripped out of their seats. It simply means he circled around and attempted to land the plane again.

Saying that the pregnancy was aborted does not always mean an abortion was performed.

Concerning the lady in Texas, no medical records or Grand Jury transcripts have been released so exactly how or why her pregnancy was terminated/aborted is not public knowledge. All that is known is that her lawyer is saying it was a stillbirth and the DA has dropped all charges.
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What does "self-induced" mean?
 
ABM said:
What does "self-induced" mean?
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I'm sure you can figure that out, if not google is a good tool.

Again, without complete medical records of how the pregnancy was aborted, we don't know enough to burn this lady at the stake.

There are many women who believe they "self-induced" an abortion by eating spicy foods, or soft cheeses, going 4x4ing, or riding horses, etc. Not all women whose pregnancies were "aborted" mean they did anything wrong but many will blame themselves for it because of some action or something they may have eaten.

There is just not enough information to vilify this woman yet.
 
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