Knicks considering Stoudamire in off season: Article

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"lets go" haha!

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JWohl:</div><div class="quote_post">Why not? the point of the potential trade would be for the other team to be able to clear up 12 million dollars. The bigger the contract the better it is for the other team. The knicks could get another huge contract, a talanted problamatic player (Rasheed, Artest) a talented injury prone player (BDiddy) or an aging good player.</div>Would that sort of trade be good for the Knicks though? New York would probably have to take on a Chris Webber type contract, maybe one that is even bigger than Hardaway's. I'm not sure on the Knicks standpoint, but 25 teams in the league would not do that sort of trade, giving up future cap space for aging, declining players. You're actually talking about that sort of trade as a good thing. If you do get such a big contract, say bye to whatever cap you might want for the next ten years as the contracts of Houston, Marbury, Crawford, upcoming extension for Sweetney and whoever you get will paralyze you.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, Madsen isn't a true center, but he'll do in the East. He's more of a traditional center than Kurt Thomas is. And btw, it isn't likely that someone like Jerome James, Pachulia or Gadzuric would get a contract any bigger than $3 mil per year. They aren't high-profile free agents.</div>
Kurt Thomas is the same height as Madsen and is better offensively and defensively than Madsen. I don't want a "traditional" center. I want an effective one and frankly, Madsen isn't more effective than anyone that you listed. They might not be "high-profile free agents", but they are difference makers.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You have a whole season to lose if this "experiment" doesn't work out. You might also lose important development time for young players, especially Ariza whose minutes would be cut if Damon is signed and Hardaway moves to small forward. And it's not very easy to move a guy like Hardaway because no one would want to take on his $12 million even if he has an expiring contract. The Knicks would have to take back a lot in salaries if the other team's motive is a salary dump.</div>
What do we have to lose? You yourself said "Yeah, wouldn't hurt." so I don't know how we would be sacrificing our season like you said. I don't see how a 12 million dollar expiring contract and a 14 million one (correct me if I'm wrong) with Tim Thomas will be extremely challenging to move. Why can't the Knicks take an expiring contract back like the Hawks/Pistons deadline move? Also a sign and trade for a nice young talent can also work as well. Damon will get his share and as I said before, if the Knicks are wining, it's most likely all good.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Stoudamire's contract, I would be willing to wager a sig bet that he would sign a contract at least three years in length. Willing to take me on?</div>
Thanks for the offer but...no thanks.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kurt Thomas is the same height as Madsen and is better offensively and defensively than Madsen. I don't want a "traditional" center. I want an effective one and frankly, Madsen isn't more effective than anyone that you listed. They might not be "high-profile free agents", but they are difference makers.
</div>Did I say he was more effective? I just listed him as a guy the Knicks could look at getting for cheap. I didn't say he would be a top choice, but at least better than wasting a MLE on a guy you wouldn't need in Stoudamire.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
What do we have to lose? You yourself said "Yeah, wouldn't hurt." so I don't know how we would be sacrificing our season like you said. I don't see how a 12 million dollar expiring contract and a 14 million one (correct me if I'm wrong) with Tim Thomas will be extremely challenging to move. Why can't the Knicks take an expiring contract back like the Hawks/Pistons deadline move? Also a sign and trade for a nice young talent can also work as well. Damon will get his share and as I said before, if the Knicks are wining, it's most likely all good.</div>"Yeah, wouldn't hurt". Maybe you didn't get me, but it was sarcasm. The Knicks could basically tank their whole season if you get playing time issues at one of the most important positions on a team. Trading Hardaway and Thomas might look easy, but how often do these trades happen, when you see a guy with a huge expiring contract and not a whole lot to offer get traded for someone with a bright future or a bona fide star? Thomas and Hardaway wouldn't get you a lot, maybe picks and an over-the-hill star. Would the Knicks benefit from such a trade in the long run, barring some very good picks with the draft choices?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Thanks for the offer but...no thanks.</div>Thought so.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Did I say he was more effective? I just listed him as a guy the Knicks could look at getting for cheap. I didn't say he would be a top choice, but at least better than wasting a MLE on a guy you wouldn't need in Stoudamire.</div>
I never said you did say more effective. You mentioned banging with top centers in the east when Kurt Thomas is the same way. We would need Madsen less than Stoudamire. Why sign yet another PF? You're the one talking about creating a glut and adding a 6th power forward who can play undersized center would not help at all.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"Yeah, wouldn't hurt". Maybe you didn't get me, but it was sarcasm. The Knicks could basically tank their whole season if you get playing time issues at one of the most important positions on a team. Trading Hardaway and Thomas might look easy, but how often do these trades happen, when you see a guy with a huge expiring contract and not a whole lot to offer get traded for someone with a bright future or a bona fide star? Thomas and Hardaway wouldn't get you a lot, maybe picks and an over-the-hill star. Would the Knicks benefit from such a trade in the long run, barring some very good picks with the draft choices?
</div>
Why can't Stoudamire play backup PG? He will probably not be getting 30 minutes a game, but he will get his share. I don't think the Knicks will simply giveup the season because Stoudamire isn't happy with his minutes. I see trades happen like this frequently. The Warriors got Baron Davis with those expiring contracts and the team has been amazing as of late! The Knicks can make a run at possibly someone like Artest with all his problems he's having with those. Maybe they can get a first rounder or a couple of second rounders with them. Yeah, they would be a better team with some quality picks and draft choices.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thought so.</div>
Thought so what? I'm not Damon Stoudamire and I don't know what he's thinking? Are you willing to place a bet that the Rockets won't make it out the first round?
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I never said you did say more effective. You mentioned banging with top centers in the east when Kurt Thomas is the same way. We would need Madsen less than Stoudamire. Why sign yet another PF? You're the one talking about creating a glut and adding a 6th power forward who can play undersized center would not help at all.</div>What you'll need is someone who can bang with centers in the East, pure and simple. You're saying that Madsen would be no more help than Kurt Thomas, but besides Kurt Thomas, who do you have backing him up at center? I would rather have Madsen at center rather than Jerome Williams or Mo Taylor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Why can't Stoudamire play backup PG? He will probably not be getting 30 minutes a game, but he will get his share. I don't think the Knicks will simply giveup the season because Stoudamire isn't happy with his minutes. I see trades happen like this frequently. The Warriors got Baron Davis with those expiring contracts and the team has been amazing as of late! The Knicks can make a run at possibly someone like Artest with all his problems he's having with those. Maybe they can get a first rounder or a couple of second rounders with them. Yeah, they would be a better team with some quality picks and draft choices.</div>Did I say Stoudamire can't play backup PG? What I'm saying is that there won't be enough minutes to go around. Marbury would get at least 35 minutes per game, correct? Crawford at least 33 right? That takes out 78 minutes of the possible 96 minutes in the backcourt that Stoudamire, Houston, Hardaway and Jermaine Jackson would have to salvage. All these players, with the exception of Jackson, would want at least 20 minutes per game if not more. Hardaway could play small forward, you might argue, but wouldn't that mean cutting Ariza's minutes? Having this sort of backcourt rotation would give you a very good backcourt, but a lot of egos and bad blood.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Thought so what? I'm not Damon Stoudamire and I don't know what he's thinking? Are you willing to place a bet that the Rockets won't make it out the first round?</div>Yeah. I'll bet that. I don't have any high hopes for the Rockets this year in the playoffs. Just being realistic.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">What you'll need is someone who can bang with centers in the East, pure and simple. You're saying that Madsen would be no more help than Kurt Thomas, but besides Kurt Thomas, who do you have backing him up at center? I would rather have Madsen at center rather than Jerome Williams or Mo Taylor.</div>
Why do we need Madsen banging with centers in the east? I don't understand how that is a necessity. I'd rather have undersized Malik Rose backing up Rose. Also our draft pick will more than likely be a big man. I'd choose him over Madsen.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Did I say Stoudamire can't play backup PG? What I'm saying is that there won't be enough minutes to go around. Marbury would get at least 35 minutes per game, correct? Crawford at least 33 right? That takes out 78 minutes of the possible 96 minutes in the backcourt that Stoudamire, Houston, Hardaway and Jermaine Jackson would have to salvage. All these players, with the exception of Jackson, would want at least 20 minutes per game if not more. Hardaway could play small forward, you might argue, but wouldn't that mean cutting Ariza's minutes? Having this sort of backcourt rotation would give you a very good backcourt, but a lot of egos and bad blood.</div>
Rather than calculating their minutes, did you ever think maybe they won't get as many minutes because Damon would help them so much? The main agenda is to get a win and Marbury has said it himself. He said the more important thing is the W rather than how many minutes I play. I see this move simply adding depth to the Knicks backcourt.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why do we need Madsen banging with centers in the east? I don't understand how that is a necessity. I'd rather have undersized Malik Rose backing up Rose. Also our draft pick will more than likely be a big man. I'd choose him over Madsen.</div>Draft picks aside, Madsen would be a very solid addition. And Rose backing up Rose? I think you meant to say Thomas.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Rather than calculating their minutes, did you ever think maybe they won't get as many minutes because Damon would help them so much? The main agenda is to get a win and Marbury has said it himself. He said the more important thing is the W rather than how many minutes I play. I see this move simply adding depth to the Knicks backcourt.</div>Marbury and Crawford are getting 40 and 38 minutes, respectatively. I'd already cut their projected minutes for next season. Marbury might say that it's alright for him to lose minutes in exchange for wins, but would he be alright with 25 minutes a game? Would Crawford be happy getting 25? These guys will not be satisfied with their burn, and would eventually cry about their minutes and demand trades. If you had a guy like Anthony Johnson, he wouldn't complain about lack of burn as he's been there and knows his capabilities, but with guys like Marbury and Crawford who are stars and who presumably have star egos, you'll get unhappy players within a month of cut minutes.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Draft picks aside, Madsen would be a very solid addition. And Rose backing up Rose? I think you meant to say Thomas.</div>
Madsen is not a better acquisition than Stoudamire

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marbury and Crawford are getting 40 and 38 minutes, respectatively. I'd already cut their projected minutes for next season. Marbury might say that it's alright for him to lose minutes in exchange for wins, but would he be alright with 25 minutes a game? Would Crawford be happy getting 25? These guys will not be satisfied with their burn, and would eventually cry about their minutes and demand trades. If you had a guy like Anthony Johnson, he wouldn't complain about lack of burn as he's been there and knows his capabilities, but with guys like Marbury and Crawford who are stars and who presumably have star egos, you'll get unhappy players within a month of cut minutes.</div>
No, Marbury has said the most important thing is getting a victory before the season started. Also this season is a perfect example to Marbury and Crawford wining is the most important thing. If the Knicks are playing good baskerball and are in the playoff picture and have the oppourtunity to male some noise, I don't see anyone complaining about time.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Madsen is not a better acquisition than Stoudamire</div>Talent-wise, no. Need and position-wise, definitely. You don't need Stoudamire. You need someone who could at least bolster your weak center position and size.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, Marbury has said the most important thing is getting a victory before the season started. Also this season is a perfect example to Marbury and Crawford wining is the most important thing. If the Knicks are playing good baskerball and are in the playoff picture and have the oppourtunity to male some noise, I don't see anyone complaining about time.</div>That's just naive thinking. It's easy for Marbury to say that when he has never tasted getting 20 minutes a game. He's a star in the league, and I doubt he would do with less shots, less assists and less playing time even if his team is winning. That would take a lot of maturity and is mostly only in the case of veterans, not in the case of Marbury who is in his prime. It's almost a guarantee that Marbury would not do with anything less than 30 minutes per game.
 
I'll discuss this later (tommorow) I have to be leave. Peace.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Talent-wise, no. Need and position-wise, definitely. You don't need Stoudamire. You need someone who could at least bolster your weak center position and size.</div>
Mark Madsen would be forced to play the center while he is really a power forward. Adding Madsen we will be adding our 6th power forward to the team. That is half of the active roster if you haven't noticed. Rose, Taylor, Thomas, Williams, and definitely Sweetney all deserve a generous amount of minutes and adding yet another power forward can disrupt the little chemistry that the Knicks have. The Knicks draft picks will likely be big men who can do the bolstering for them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's just naive thinking. It's easy for Marbury to say that when he has never tasted getting 20 minutes a game. He's a star in the league, and I doubt he would do with less shots, less assists and less playing time even if his team is winning. That would take a lot of maturity and is mostly only in the case of veterans, not in the case of Marbury who is in his prime. It's almost a guarantee that Marbury would not do with anything less than 30 minutes per game.</div>
If Marbury got 30 minutes a game and Crawford got less time as well, I think it would work out well. Marbury has not one a significant amount of games and I think seeing positive results would likely change his opinion. Increasing a glut at the power forward position is na?ve thinking. The players at the power forwards are a combination of deserving veterans and a rising star. All we are doing is diminishing their minutes and are risking chemistry problems for an undersized bench player.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Marbury got 30 minutes a game and Crawford got less time as well, I think it would work out well. Marbury has not one a significant amount of games and I think seeing positive results would likely change his opinion. Increasing a glut at the power forward position is na?ve thinking. The players at the power forwards are a combination of deserving veterans and a rising star. All we are doing is diminishing their minutes and are risking chemistry problems for an undersized bench player.</div> I agreed totally with your point.Adding another Power Foward is a Bad Idea.Cause we have too many with experience and I believe that Crawford is more better and affective coming off the bench replacing Marbury.Because those 2 together on the floor don't have chemistry. They force a lot of jumpers.I think they need to let the chance to Ariza to start.

My Staring lineup.

PG.Marbury
SG.Houston
SF.Ariza
PF.Sweetney
C. Thomas
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Mark Madsen would be forced to play the center while he is really a power forward. Adding Madsen we will be adding our 6th power forward to the team. That is half of the active roster if you haven't noticed. Rose, Taylor, Thomas, Williams, and definitely Sweetney all deserve a generous amount of minutes and adding yet another power forward can disrupt the little chemistry that the Knicks have. The Knicks draft picks will likely be big men who can do the bolstering for them.
</div>Like I said, "draft picks aside". Besides, in hoping that a draft pick would give you some instant help could have it's pros and cons. A lot of rookies don't develop in their first season, and just having a rookie center wouldn't mean you shouldn't go out and bolster the position.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
If Marbury got 30 minutes a game and Crawford got less time as well, I think it would work out well. Marbury has not one a significant amount of games and I think seeing positive results would likely change his opinion. Increasing a glut at the power forward position is na?ve thinking. The players at the power forwards are a combination of deserving veterans and a rising star. All we are doing is diminishing their minutes and are risking chemistry problems for an undersized bench player.</div>Not really sure if you're talking about Madsen, but it could exactly be an argument for not signing Stoudamire. If you get Madsen, he will be a center, period. He has the body to be a center and I doubt that he will play a lot of PF if he does go to Phoenix. Basically, it's adding a center and that glut at PF stays the same.
 
Can they seriously afford him? He's going to look for a decent sized contract, and with all the huge contracts they already have (Rose, Taylor, Crawford, Marbury, Thomas, etc.), are they even gonna have the cap space to sign him? I guess he could take the MLE or something like that, but who knows. Players are greedy nowadays and always find a way to get paid more than what they're worth.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting el_guasibiri:</div><div class="quote_post">
PG.Marbury
SG.Houston
SF.Ariza
PF.Sweetney
C. Thomas</div>


Sorry....Houston is never going to start over Crawford, period. It's strange to me how after going through a period where your team had too many forwards, now your GM is filling it up with guards.
 
Well, Isiah is going to be getting rid of 2-3 of our PFs in the offseason. I don't expect to see Malik/Taylor back, and this is probably the year that we finally get rid of an aging Kurt Thomas. This will allow us to focus primarily on the development of Sweetney, as well as the young center we will be bringing in.

PS I know I haven't been posting lately, been busy with personal matters...and the Mets.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, "draft picks aside". Besides, in hoping that a draft pick would give you some instant help could have it's pros and cons. A lot of rookies don't develop in their first season, and just having a rookie center wouldn't mean you shouldn't go out and bolster the position.</div>
The Knicks will have a lottery rookie which is probably more surefire than any other rookie. The Knicks getting at least one rookie center and adding Madsen to their team would create problems. I don't see an undersized center with litte if any offense, could bolster out center position. Sure, he can give us defense, but he will not be able to clean up the Knicks messes on the perimeter. The Knicks forwards are pretty good defenders already. JYD, Kurt Thomas and Malik Rose, are more than reasonable on the defensive end. I don't see how Madsen's presence could do much better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not really sure if you're talking about Madsen, but it could exactly be an argument for not signing Stoudamire. If you get Madsen, he will be a center, period. He has the body to be a center and I doubt that he will play a lot of PF if he does go to Phoenix. Basically, it's adding a center and that glut at PF stays the same.</div>
If Stoudamire decides to sign with the Knicks, than I think he would have probably already thought about his minutes. Whether Madsen has the body to be a center doesn't really matter. Sean May has the body to be a center in the NBA, but does that mean they would be effective as centers? And a lot of PF when he comes to Phoenix? I think you meant to say New York.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry....Houston is never going to start over Crawford, period. It's strange to me how after going through a period where your team had too many forwards, now your GM is filling it up with guards.</div>
Why can't a healthy Houston start over Crawford?
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">PS I know I haven't been posting lately, been busy with personal matters...and the Mets.</div>
It's all good Platehpus, glad to see you back!
yay.gif
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, Isiah is going to be getting rid of 2-3 of our PFs in the offseason. I don't expect to see Malik/Taylor back, and this is probably the year that we finally get rid of an aging Kurt Thomas.</div>

I don't think Rose and Thomas will be traded because those 2 are the best defenders the knicks have right now.But I do see Maurice Taylor and Tim Thomas traded together. Maybe for a true backup center.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Platehpus:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, Isiah is going to be getting rid of 2-3 of our PFs in the offseason. I don't expect to see Malik/Taylor back, and this is probably the year that we finally get rid of an aging Kurt Thomas. This will allow us to focus primarily on the development of Sweetney, as well as the young center we will be bringing in.

PS I know I haven't been posting lately, been busy with personal matters...and the Mets.</div>
You know, for you to get rid of a player, you have to find another team to take on him and his contract. Rose and Taylor's humongous contracts would mean that 25 out of 30 GMs wouldn't want them, and the five that would would seriously lowball the Knicks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
The Knicks will have a lottery rookie which is probably more surefire than any other rookie. The Knicks getting at least one rookie center and adding Madsen to their team would create problems. I don't see an undersized center with litte if any offense, could bolster out center position. Sure, he can give us defense, but he will not be able to clean up the Knicks messes on the perimeter. The Knicks forwards are pretty good defenders already. JYD, Kurt Thomas and Malik Rose, are more than reasonable on the defensive end. I don't see how Madsen's presence could do much better.
</div>Pretty good defenders, but do they, with the exception of Thomas, have the size?

Here's a look at Shaquille O'Neal's stats against the Knicks:
Mar 19: 33/17
Mar 15: 23/7
Feb 09: 16/13
Jan 05: 33/18
Averages of 26/14, above his season averages, are no joke.

Now let's look at Zydrunas Ilgauskas:

Jan 28: 24/9
Jan 08: 7/6
Nov 21: 21/6

Close to his season averages. You might say that the Knicks have done a good job on him but then take a look at his frontcourt partner Drew Gooden, who is averaging 17/13 against the Knicks this season. Also, Ilgauskas' games against the Knicks were all played when you had Nazr. Think Kurt Thomas, at 6-9 generously, can guard 7-3? After all, all Thomas managed to do with Gooden was let him score 2 more above his season average, and get 4 more rebounds.

The list just goes on and on. Jermaine O'Neal averaged 29/11 against New York, Tim Duncan 17/10 in a sole game, Garnett 27/17, Yao 23/12, Webber 22/11 etc etc. It's a safe bet to say that any upper echelon big man in the league outdoes his average against the Knicks. It's definitely not because of the New York food. What makes you think that that type of post defense would suffice for the Knicks? Stats have proven otherwise.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
If Stoudamire decides to sign with the Knicks, than I think he would have probably already thought about his minutes. Whether Madsen has the body to be a center doesn't really matter. Sean May has the body to be a center in the NBA, but does that mean they would be effective as centers? And a lot of PF when he comes to Phoenix? I think you meant to say New York.</div>So now you're saying Damon Stoudamire won't play a lot of minutes? Why would you even use a MLE on someone who won't even play much? Sean May doesn't have the body to be a center in the NBA, he has the weight but not the height. 6-8 won't cut it for him, but Madsen has more quickness than May and better defense. And yes, I meant new York.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, for you to get rid of a player, you have to find another team to take on him and his contract. Rose and Taylor's humongous contracts would mean that 25 out of 30 GMs wouldn't want them, and the five that would would seriously lowball the Knicks.
Pretty good defenders, but do they, with the exception of Thomas, have the size?</div>
I wouldn?t really mind having any of them on my team for now. Taylor?s humongous contract just happens to expire when Houston?s humongous contract expires. This means the Knicks can make a run at some top free agents in 2 summers.
Size is good, but overall effectiveness is what matters. Malik Rose is very effective especially considering him being 6?7. Rose is a good defender, and rebounder. An interesting statistic I found not too long ago was this: When Rose started about 30 times with the Spurs over the last 2 years, he averaged 15.5ppg and 8.5rpg. I think if he can manage western power house front courts, he can definitely help us. Also, Rose has the most experience out of anyone on the Knicks and manyh people in the league! He?s played with hall of fame caliber coaches, players, and has tons of playoff experience. He is very qualified to play with the big men in the east.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Here's a look at Shaquille O'Neal's stats against the Knicks:
Mar 19: 33/17
Mar 15: 23/7
Feb 09: 16/13
Jan 05: 33/18
Averages of 26/14, above his season averages, are no joke.</div>
Shaq is he most dominant force known to basketball. He is arguably the best center who ever played the game! Of course he can do that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now let's look at Zydrunas Ilgauskas:

Jan 28: 24/9
Jan 08: 7/6
Nov 21: 21/6

Close to his season averages. You might say that the Knicks have done a good job on him but then take a look at his frontcourt partner Drew Gooden, who is averaging 17/13 against the Knicks this season. Also, Ilgauskas' games against the Knicks were all played when you had Nazr. Think Kurt Thomas, at 6-9 generously, can guard 7-3? After all, all Thomas managed to do with Gooden was let him score 2 more above his season average, and get 4 more rebounds.</div>
No, realistically, Kurt will likely struggle against Ilgauskas, but a main reason why some of these big men do well against them is because of the frequent meltdowns on the perimeter for the Knicks. Many times the Knicks bigs have to play both their man as well as a Marbury or Crawford?s man. Also Gooden getting 2 more points is so big. 4 more rebounds is inexcusable though.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The list just goes on and on. Jermaine O'Neal averaged 29/11 against New York, Tim Duncan 17/10 in a sole game, Garnett 27/17, Yao 23/12, Webber 22/11 etc etc. It's a safe bet to say that any upper echelon big man in the league outdoes his average against the Knicks. It's definitely not because of the New York food. What makes you think that that type of post defense would suffice for the Knicks? Stats have proven otherwise.</div>
Those are very good big men. Of course they can do well. You?re throwing out elite level big men who dominated the Knicks. They do that to almost every other team so it?s not such a big deal. If you had someone on a level like Travis Knight putting up those numbers against us, than I would be concerned, however these players do that all the time to other teams as well.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So now you're saying Damon Stoudamire won't play a lot of minutes? Why would you even use a MLE on someone who won't even play much? Sean May doesn't have the body to be a center in the NBA, he has the weight but not the height. 6-8 won't cut it for him, but Madsen has more quickness than May and better defense. And yes, I meant new York.</div>
I did not say that. I said Damon already knows what he?s headed into. He would have already thought about his minutes if he was going to sign with us. He could provide the Knicks backcourt with some valuable rest. May can use his body to his advantage. Yes, he may be a bit ?chunky? if you want to call him that, but he does have time to improve his condition. Madsen has good defense, but do you expect the Knicks condition to improve by a lot? You said it yourself, how do you think a 6?9 Thomas would fair going against the Ilgauskas?, the Shaq?s, and the Jermaine O?Neal?s? What can Madsen do with the identical size as Thomas? I don?t see Madsen doing anymore but salvaging us maybe 0.4 points a game less for our opponents.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
I wouldn?t really mind having any of them on my team for now. Taylor?s humongous contract just happens to expire when Houston?s humongous contract expires. This means the Knicks can make a run at some top free agents in 2 summers.
Size is good, but overall effectiveness is what matters. Malik Rose is very effective especially considering him being 6?7. Rose is a good defender, and rebounder. An interesting statistic I found not too long ago was this: When Rose started about 30 times with the Spurs over the last 2 years, he averaged 15.5ppg and 8.5rpg. I think if he can manage western power house front courts, he can definitely help us. Also, Rose has the most experience out of anyone on the Knicks and manyh people in the league! He?s played with hall of fame caliber coaches, players, and has tons of playoff experience. He is very qualified to play with the big men in the east.</div>I would highly doubt that even with the huge contracts of Houston and Taylor expiring, the Knicks would be under the cap enough to make a run at a good free agent. They would most likely still be over the cap as Marbury, Crawford, Rose and Thomas's contracts would still be on the books. Besides, I doubt you would be able to spend a lot of cash on a free agent as you'd probably want to lock up Sweetney and Ariza first.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
No, realistically, Kurt will likely struggle against Ilgauskas, but a main reason why some of these big men do well against them is because of the frequent meltdowns on the perimeter for the Knicks. Many times the Knicks bigs have to play both their man as well as a Marbury or Crawford?s man. Also Gooden getting 2 more points is so big. 4 more rebounds is inexcusable though.</div>Well, I'm not going to say anything about your perimeter defense, although I would add that getting Stoudamire would not help that situation at all. You blame the Knicks' bad defense on big men on your guards, then you want to bring in a short guard who is a bad defender? Lots of loopholes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those are very good big men. Of course they can do well. You?re throwing out elite level big men who dominated the Knicks. They do that to almost every other team so it?s not such a big deal. If you had someone on a level like Travis Knight putting up those numbers against us, than I would be concerned, however these players do that all the time to other teams as well.
</div>The thing is, these guys, with the exception of Duncan, have all outdone their season averages against the Knicks. And if you want more stats, I'll give you some.

Marc Jackson averaged 15 and 6 against the Knicks, one rebound and three more points a game. Sam Dalembert averaged 8 and 11, 3.5 more than his season average in rebounding. Primoz Brezec averaged 15 and 6, Jason Collier averaged 9 and 5, Kelvin Cato 9/10, Brian Grant 5 and 7. How do you explain all these mid to lower tier players outdoing their regular season averages against the Knicks?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I did not say that. I said Damon already knows what he?s headed into. He would have already thought about his minutes if he was going to sign with us. He could provide the Knicks backcourt with some valuable rest. May can use his body to his advantage. Yes, he may be a bit ?chunky? if you want to call him that, but he does have time to improve his condition. Madsen has good defense, but do you expect the Knicks condition to improve by a lot? You said it yourself, how do you think a 6?9 Thomas would fair going against the Ilgauskas?, the Shaq?s, and the Jermaine O?Neal?s? What can Madsen do with the identical size as Thomas? I don?t see Madsen doing anymore but salvaging us maybe 0.4 points a game less for our opponents.</div>At first you suggested cutting Marbury and Crawford's minutes, now you say that Stoudamire wouldn't need to play much? Flip-flopping?

And when did I ever say that Madsen would be an upgrade at center? Right now, all you have is Kurt Thomas. If Madsen signs with New York, he wouldn't start, but he would come off the bench to back up Thomas for about 20 minutes each night. That would allow Malik Rose to move back to power forward where he is most comfortable and where his size of 6-6 fits him better than the five where you get at least players 6-9 and up. Besides, it's not like I only mentioned Madsen. Why don't I see you attacking my choices of Zaza Pachulia and Dan Gadzuric?
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">I would highly doubt that even with the huge contracts of Houston and Taylor expiring, the Knicks would be under the cap enough to make a run at a good free agent. They would most likely still be over the cap as Marbury, Crawford, Rose and Thomas's contracts would still be on the books. Besides, I doubt you would be able to spend a lot of cash on a free agent as you'd probably want to lock up Sweetney and Ariza first.</div>
I think a sign and trade for a good free agent could work our for them. Once Ariza and Sweetney see the team heading into the right direction, I think that they will want to stay and help the team. The way the Knicks are, every year at least one huge contract expires so we?ll have some panws to work with every year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I'm not going to say anything about your perimeter defense, although I would add that getting Stoudamire would not help that situation at all. You blame the Knicks' bad defense on big men on your guards, then you want to bring in a short guard who is a bad defender? Lots of loopholes. </div>
Well put it this way: The Knicks perimeter defense can not get any worse so the acquisition of Stoudamire will have no negative effect on it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The thing is, these guys, with the exception of Duncan, have all outdone their season averages against the Knicks. And if you want more stats, I'll give you some.
Marc Jackson averaged 15 and 6 against the Knicks, one rebound and three more points a game. Sam Dalembert averaged 8 and 11, 3.5 more than his season average in rebounding. Primoz Brezec averaged 15 and 6, Jason Collier averaged 9 and 5, Kelvin Cato 9/10, Brian Grant 5 and 7. How do you explain all these mid to lower tier players outdoing their regular season averages against the Knicks?</div>
Trip, you?ve also forgot to mention the Knicks holding Pau Gasol to 13 points (6 less than his average on 36% from the field. He got 3 more rebounds, but I?m sure it doesn?t out do his overall performance those games. Or Carlos Boozer to 12/6 on 25% shooting. Primoz Brezec averages around those numbers a game, Mark Jackson played 13 more minutes than usual, Collier there?s no excuse. Also, you?re acting as if Cato and Grant are srubs! Due to foul trouble and incidents of that nature, they got a little extra time and put up numbers slightly better than their averages. This is why we need Madsen so badly?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">At first you suggested cutting Marbury and Crawford's minutes, now you say that Stoudamire wouldn't need to play much? Flip-flopping?</div>
No, you were suggesting there would be some kind of problem with minutes if Stoudamire signed with us. I?m saying no because if there was, Stoudamire would have thought about it before he decided to sign with us.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And when did I ever say that Madsen would be an upgrade at center? Right now, all you have is Kurt Thomas. If Madsen signs with New York, he wouldn't start, but he would come off the bench to back up Thomas for about 20 minutes each night. That would allow Malik Rose to move back to power forward where he is most comfortable and where his size of 6-6 fits him better than the five where you get at least players 6-9 and up. Besides, it's not like I only mentioned Madsen. Why don't I see you attacking my choices of Zaza Pachulia and Dan Gadzuric?</div>
Thomas plays 35.8 minutes a game. Due to the lack of size, a majority of his time is spent at the center position. Now backing Thomas up for 20 minutes would mean Madsen is playing a majority of the minutes at center, no? Or are you suggesting the two undersized power forwards will split the center position 28/20? I?m not attacking your choices of Zaza Pachulia or Dan Gadzuric because I already stated in my previous posts that they were decent options for us and that they would get the nod over Stoudamire. I just don?t understand how a player considered to be undersized as a power forward, could fill in the void of ?the center we need so desperately.? Although he is not talented offensively, he can bang so that makes a big difference? Stoudamire gives us depth and scoring and rest at the backcourt. If I wanted an undersized power forward playing center for me, I would have chosen any one of the Knicks power forwards.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Well put it this way: The Knicks perimeter defense can not get any worse so the acquisition of Stoudamire will have no negative effect on it.</div>Well, let's put it this way: If the Knicks are already that bad on perimeter defense, instead of signing someone who won't help it, why not sign someone who would? It's not like the Knicks need another point guard anyways, with Hardaway, Crawford and Jackson all able to man the position when Marbury sits.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Trip, you?ve also forgot to mention the Knicks holding Pau Gasol to 13 points (6 less than his average on 36% from the field. He got 3 more rebounds, but I?m sure it doesn?t out do his overall performance those games. Or Carlos Boozer to 12/6 on 25% shooting. Primoz Brezec averages around those numbers a game, Mark Jackson played 13 more minutes than usual, Collier there?s no excuse. Also, you?re acting as if Cato and Grant are srubs! Due to foul trouble and incidents of that nature, they got a little extra time and put up numbers slightly better than their averages. This is why we need Madsen so badly? </div>The stats are just there, and I'm just using them. For every case of the Knicks holding a guy like Gasol or Boozer to below-average performances, they also allow guys like Matt Bonner, Jason Collier, and Primoz Brezec to have career games against them. They need consistency at post defense, which is what the Knicks really need, not another guard to add a backcourt glut to the power forward one.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Thomas plays 35.8 minutes a game. Due to the lack of size, a majority of his time is spent at the center position. Now backing Thomas up for 20 minutes would mean Madsen is playing a majority of the minutes at center, no? Or are you suggesting the two undersized power forwards will split the center position 28/20? I?m not attacking your choices of Zaza Pachulia or Dan Gadzuric because I already stated in my previous posts that they were decent options for us and that they would get the nod over Stoudamire. I just don?t understand how a player considered to be undersized as a power forward, could fill in the void of ?the center we need so desperately.? Although he is not talented offensively, he can bang so that makes a big difference? Stoudamire gives us depth and scoring and rest at the backcourt. If I wanted an undersized power forward playing center for me, I would have chosen any one of the Knicks power forwards.</div>Mo Taylor playing center? The reason I thought Madsen would be a good addition is because he has more of a traditional center game. I'm not saying he will become a starter for the Knicks nor that he would become the savior to the Knicks franchise. What I do think though is that his addition would solidify the center spot. I wouldn't pick him over any of the other guys I listed, but I sure would pick him over Stoudamire.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, let's put it this way: If the Knicks are already that bad on perimeter defense, instead of signing someone who won't help it, why not sign someone who would? It's not like the Knicks need another point guard anyways, with Hardaway, Crawford and Jackson all able to man the position when Marbury sits.</div>
Well I thought me signing a center over Stoudamire was already established? I suggest you reread some of the thread.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The stats are just there, and I'm just using them. For every case of the Knicks holding a guy like Gasol or Boozer to below-average performances, they also allow guys like Matt Bonner, Jason Collier, and Primoz Brezec to have career games against them. They need consistency at post defense, which is what the Knicks really need, not another guard to add a backcourt glut to the power forward one.</div>
Well what about other teams? That happens to them as well. Every player is capable of going off and sometimes they do.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Mo Taylor playing center? The reason I thought Madsen would be a good addition is because he has more of a traditional center game. I'm not saying he will become a starter for the Knicks nor that he would become the savior to the Knicks franchise. What I do think though is that his addition would solidify the center spot. I wouldn't pick him over any of the other guys I listed, but I sure would pick him over Stoudamire.</div>
I?m not concerned with a ?traditional? game. I?m a fan of the effective game. Adding someone who is an undersized center would not solidify our center position. He will create an immense glut that will cause potential chemistry problems.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Well I thought me signing a center over Stoudamire was already established? I suggest you reread some of the thread.
</div>So what are we debating if we already agree that the Knicks need a center more than a point guard?
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Well what about other teams? That happens to them as well. Every player is capable of going off and sometimes they do.
</div>I agree that it's unavoidable that sometimes players just go off, but so many against the Knicks? It's no coindence that San Antonio holds most big men below their season averages. Post defense still does a lot in determining the points allowed at the four and five.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
I?m not concerned with a ?traditional? game. I?m a fan of the effective game. Adding someone who is an undersized center would not solidify our center position. He will create an immense glut that will cause potential chemistry problems.</div>How would Madsen create a glut when I've already stated that he will play mostly at center? You surely can't have a glut with Butler, Thomas and Madsen can you?
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">So what are we debating if we already agree that the Knicks need a center more than a point guard?
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</div>
You?re convinced Madsen is a better acquisition than Stoudamire. I?m not.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree that it's unavoidable that sometimes players just go off, but so many against the Knicks? It's no coindence that San Antonio holds most big men below their season averages. Post defense still does a lot in determining the points allowed at the four and five.</div>
San Antonio is one of the best defensive teams in the league and they have been for many years now. They have a HOF player defending the post the Knicks don?t. And there is no chance on God?s green earth that Madsen would provide us with a defensive intensity close to the equivalent of San Antonio. Adding Madsen would give us some attributes Stoudamire will not give us but overall, he?s not a better acquisition.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How would Madsen create a glut when I've already stated that he will play mostly at center? You surely can't have a glut with Butler, Thomas and Madsen can you?</div>
Oh yeah that?s right, we?re getting an undersized power forward playing back up center for us. I should have known. And you also forgot about Sundov and a possible draft pick (don?t know why you want to disregard our rookie).
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, I'm glad you know that, but so? Okay, we don't have a Hall Of Fame big man playing for us so we're not even going to try to get good at post defense? I know not every team has a strong post defender but most do try to improve on it. Why should the Knicks not improve on it but rather go for a point guard, who ironically, is an average defender?
[quote name='mrj18']
Oh yeah that?s right, we?re getting an undersized power forward playing back up center for us. I should have known. And you also forgot about Sundov and a possible draft pick (don?t know why you want to disregard our rookie).</div>I've said "rookies aside" a few times. Besides, how do you know you're going to draft a rookie post man? KA wants Gerald Green; and I doubt that you could get someone who would compete for playing time immediately through that last first round draft pick. Realistically, the center position right now is all Thomas's; Sundov and Butler are getting next to no playing time.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trip:</div><div class="quote_post">I've said "rookies aside" a few times. Besides, how do you know you're going to draft a rookie post man? KA wants Gerald Green; and I doubt that you could get someone who would compete for playing time immediately through that last first round draft pick. Realistically, the center position right now is all Thomas's; Sundov and Butler are getting next to no playing time.</div>
Well we do have a late first round pick in the draft and Houston's second rounder. I'm sure we can get a big man with one of those picks. Who knows, maybe Butler can get some time next year. He has been looking impressive in the very little he's played this season. Something similar to what happened to Sweetney can take place with Butler. Adding Madsen will give us some benefits, but I don't see how it's more than Stoudamire.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Well we do have a late first round pick in the draft and Houston's second rounder. I'm sure we can get a big man with one of those picks. Who knows, maybe Butler can get some time next year. He has been looking impressive in the very little he's played this season. Something similar to what happened to Sweetney can take place with Butler. Adding Madsen will give us some benefits, but I don't see how it's more than Stoudamire.</div>
You need someone with post defense no? You don't need another point guard no? The priorities are so clear that I can even see it; and I'm not even a Knicks fan. Why add another point guard when you have Hardaway, Crawford and Jackson who could all play there? Meanwhile, Thomas and Madsen at center, would be better than just Thomas, because hell, having two undersized centers is better than having just one.
 
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