Knicks fans have it bad..

[tradebark]

First off, I'm not trying to incite a flame war or anything; you can say all you want about the Sonics ;P

I'm seeing rumors of Wally Sczerbiak and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.. Jerome James.. I mean, what..? Is all this just a product of overzealous NY press? Or are these actual potential moves?

It's like watching a car wreck happen.. Knicks have already made the mistake of overpaying to acquire or keep mediocare players (Hardaway, Tim and Kurt Thomas, Houston, Van Horn, and on and on..) and here you are again, getting ready to put out more green for more average talent.

I mean New York has basically tried to do what Dallas has.. Primarily acquiring players outside the draft. Except they either haven't had the luck or more likely haven't approached it with the right mindset or coaching. I mean this is a team that over the years has been composed of various flavors of the month. Mix em all together and you get a potpourri of crap :[

I'm wondering if you guys honestly think anything of your team? Am I missing something here? New York lost a number of games by a margin of 6 or less, and it seems management thinks that it's merely a year or two away from cracking the playoffs. I see that as a bad excuse for a team that should just admit it's headed in the wrong direction and make moves to amend it.

You got yourself a quality rookie in Trevor Ariza, and Sweetney is another player with good upside. But trying to base an offense around Marbury and a bunch of soft jump shooters is obviously not working..

 

[Mr. J]

The Knicks are in one of their bad times as a team. Every team has a period like these including championship caliber teams. The money situation is not created by anyone but Scott Layden. No they have not been trying to imitate Dallas, they were in a mess when Isiah took over. Acquire players outside the draft? I?m afraid you?re mistaken. The Knicks just traded for 3 picks in this upcoming draft! The Knicks are looking to go younger. Also in the next 2 years, the Knicks will have 60 million dollars coming off the books. They can work out a sign and trade and get a good player, or they can simply let that expire. Some big ones such as Maurice Taylor and Allan Houston?s expire when big name players become free agents.

The Knicks are very capable of making the playoffs next year. The injury bug hit the Knicks hard and Allan Houston was unable to play. You said 6 points or less which indicates that the Knicks lack the focus of closing out games because usually their clutchest shooter does it for him. He?s been plagued with injuries this season. So because they lost many games by a small margin, it means it will take them a whole bunch of revamping?

We have 2 quality young players (3 if you add Crawford) and 3 picks in the draft to draft 3 potential quality young players. We also have 30 million each year in the next 2 years and we have the greatest city in the world and the Mecca of basketball as our home. We?re not as worse off as you think.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">First off, I'm not trying to incite a flame war or anything; you can say all you want about the Sonics ;P

I'm seeing rumors of Wally Sczerbiak and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.. Jerome James.. I mean, what..? Is all this just a product of overzealous NY press? Or are these actual potential moves?

It's like watching a car wreck happen.. Knicks have already made the mistake of overpaying to acquire or keep mediocare players (Hardaway, Tim and Kurt Thomas, Houston, Van Horn, and on and on..) and here you are again, getting ready to put out more green for more average talent.

I mean New York has basically tried to do what Dallas has.. Primarily acquiring players outside the draft. Except they either haven't had the luck or more likely haven't approached it with the right mindset or coaching. I mean this is a team that over the years has been composed of various flavors of the month. Mix em all together and you get a potpourri of crap :[

I'm wondering if you guys honestly think anything of your team? Am I missing something here? New York lost a number of games by a margin of 6 or less, and it seems management thinks that it's merely a year or two away from cracking the playoffs. I see that as a bad excuse for a team that should just admit it's headed in the wrong direction and make moves to amend it.

You got yourself a quality rookie in Trevor Ariza, and Sweetney is another player with good upside. But trying to base an offense around Marbury and a bunch of soft jump shooters is obviously not working..</div>

The regular season is over and the Knicks arent in the playoffs, the media has to write about something. With that being said there is some truth to some of these rumors. Isiah has been after Wally since before the season began and the Big Z who may not be resigned by the Cavaliers is buying a home in New York City and is the exact piece the Knicks need.

The Knicks have definetely made the mistake of overpaying guys to stay but when your a bad team...you have to overpay guys to make sure they stay. Afterall noone wants to be on a losing team. By the way Big Z is the second best center in the East he isnt average talent by any stretch of the imagination.

New York has basically tried to buy itself success. Much like the New York Yankees do except it doesnt quite work the same way in basketball as it does in baseball. What the Knicks organization has done is to try to patch things up(and done a poor job of patching things up at that) instead of start over. That's pretty much why were in the mess were in right now.

I think this is one of the sorriest teams assembled in Knicks history to be honest with you. We couldnt show the grit to win close games. We collapsed way too many times in the fourth quarter despite having reasonably large leads. And we choked during crunchtime(i.e. missing freethrows). But we probably are only a year away from making the playoffs depending on how we handle this off season. It's not impossible. Afterall your own Sonics were one of the worst teams in the NBA last season and now their serious contenders. I say if Houston is healthy and Isiah pulls off a miracle(not likely) and gets the Big Z we can turn this whole franchise around. But me personally I'd rather just trade Marbury for draft picks and rebuild using this draft.

I wouldnt mind basing an offense around Marbury with shooters. But we dont have a pure shooter(three point range) in our whole team at least not one that's healthy anyway. Surrounding Marbury with jumpshooters worked fine for us last year when we had Van Horn. By the way what's wrong with an offense revolving around jumpshooters? Arent the Sonics primarily a jumpshooting team?


mrj18, I hate it when people try to put the blame on Layden instead of where it belongs...on Isiah Thomas. The financial situation was never this bad underneath Layden. Isiah Thomas had the chance to clean house and start over when he first came in. Instead he traded away our expiring contracts for Marbury and Penny who brought their very large contracts. Isiah Thomas is as much to blame as Layden.

 

[tradebark]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Acquire players outside the draft? I?m afraid you?re mistaken. The Knicks just traded for 3 picks in this upcoming draft!</div>

The bulk of your current lineup (salary wise) is Crawford, Hardaway, Houston, Marbury, Rose, Taylor, Jerome Williams, and the Thomases. That's a team, much like Dallas' current roster, that has been assembled primarily through free agent acquisitions/resignings.. and I mean it's well and good that many of your contracts are coming off the books, but you guys would've been much better not signing them in the first place, hehe. Also looks like nobody's coming off the books for the upcoming offseason..

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">By the way Big Z is the second best center in the East he isnt average talent by any stretch of the imagination.</div>

It kind of goes without saying that any attempt to get Z will come at a BIG cost. LBJ has made it public that he wants Z in Cleveland, and the new ownership will likely do their best to keep him happy (and keep him a Cav). 'Second best center in the east' hah

That may very well be true, but does that really say anything? lol.. What I'm saying is that NY needs to stop dishing out these contracts to these people. It's like they're purposefully getting players deemed 'good' but not dynamic enough to be considered better than Marbury. Acquiring Z will probably get them in the playoffs. Hell, they may even make it to the second round. But there's still no way in hell they'll win it all.. And then we have to consider Ilgauskas' age (and the fact that he does not want to play more than a couple more years) and his ankles.

NY being the aforementioned basketball mecca, you save cash for one year and make a move to acquire an IMPACT player.. By that I mean someone on the order of Duncan/Garnett/Kobe. For practical reasons those three probably arent realistic, but I'm just saying it'd probably be better to wait til something like that comes along than settle for something that will 'maybe' hold you over for one more year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I wouldnt mind basing an offense around Marbury with shooters. But we dont have a pure shooter(three point range) in our whole team at least not one that's healthy anyway. Surrounding Marbury with jumpshooters worked fine for us last year when we had Van Horn. By the way what's wrong with an offense revolving around jumpshooters? Arent the Sonics primarily a jumpshooting team?</div>

Oh I wholeheartedly agree, there's nothing wrong with jump shooters. But that isn't my point. The concept of Marbury and a bunch of shooters certainly has merit, but it's obviously NOT working at least with the current players. Instead of trying to tape up the hole in your tire, you need you replace the whole thing.

 

[YSM5]

yep the knicks do have it bad

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">The bulk of your current lineup (salary wise) is Crawford, Hardaway, Houston, Marbury, Rose, Taylor, Jerome Williams, and the Thomases. That's a team, much like Dallas' current roster, that has been assembled primarily through free agent acquisitions/resignings.. and I mean it's well and good that many of your contracts are coming off the books, but you guys would've been much better not signing them in the first place, hehe. Also looks like nobody's coming off the books for the upcoming offseason.</div>
Well of course they shouldn't have gotten these contracts in the first place, but it's spilled milk now. What can you do about it?
In 2006, Penny Hardaway and Tim Thomas will be off the books adding up to 30 million dollars. In 2007, Allan Houston, Maurice Taylor AND Shandon Anderson adds up to another 37 million dollars off the books. In 2008, Kurt Thomas, Malik Rose, and Jerome Williams adds up to 22 million off the books. In 2009, Marbury's 22 million is off the books. So basically, every year the Knicks have at least 22 million off the books. I'm sure something positve can be done about that interesting fact.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It kind of goes without saying that any attempt to get Z will come at a BIG cost. LBJ has made it public that he wants Z in Cleveland, and the new ownership will likely do their best to keep him happy (and keep him a Cav). 'Second best center in the east' hah

That may very well be true, but does that really say anything? lol.. What I'm saying is that NY needs to stop dishing out these contracts to these people. It's like they're purposefully getting players deemed 'good' but not dynamic enough to be considered better than Marbury. Acquiring Z will probably get them in the playoffs. Hell, they may even make it to the second round. But there's still no way in hell they'll win it all.. And then we have to consider Ilgauskas' age (and the fact that he does not want to play more than a couple more years) and his ankles.</div>
I don't know. Big Z and his wife really love it in NY and are buying a house here. I think maybe the MLE might be able to get him here for a year or two. Also, Big Z won't have to worry about fighting for playing time with anyone. He could dominate the center position. Also if we get Wally and Big Z, we could have a great offensive system. A post up threat, a shooting threat and a penetrating threat with Marbury. Knick fans have seen that work plenty of times when Van Horn and Houston were on the same floor. I think adding a post up threat will spread the floor even more. Also it can bail out the Knicks perimeter defense with a more than legit shot blocker. Add this to an ever improving Sweetney and Ariza, I think we might be able to sneak out of the second round. Big Z is getting older, but he can still be an impact player. It can be argued many teams don't have a chance in hell to take it all, but from where we started and where we could end up would be an improvement.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">NY being the aforementioned basketball mecca, you save cash for one year and make a move to acquire an IMPACT player.. By that I mean someone on the order of Duncan/Garnett/Kobe. For practical reasons those three probably arent realistic, but I'm just saying it'd probably be better to wait til something like that comes along than settle for something that will 'maybe' hold you over for one more year.</div>
Well those players are not available. The Knicks have an outside chance of acquiring James in 2007 where his contract expires, but still, we should not count on that. I think you are blowing impact player out of proportion. Sure a superstar can obviously make an impact, but role players can make an impact as well. Rasheed Wallace by no means was a superstar in the league in 2004, but he made the impact Detroit needed to win it all last year. Antoine Walker is/was on the same level as KG, Duncan or Kobe, but he has improved the Celtics dramatically. What about Antawn Jamison? He made an impact on the Wizards this season although he was not a superstar. Role players are impact players and one such as Big Z could help turn around the Knicks franchise.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh I wholeheartedly agree, there's nothing wrong with jump shooters. But that isn't my point. The concept of Marbury and a bunch of shooters certainly has merit, but it's obviously NOT working at least with the current players. Instead of trying to tape up the hole in your tire, you need you replace the whole thing.</div>
But there aren't any jumpshooters on the Knicks. Crawford can shoot, but he's more of a slasher, the rest of the guys are the same way. They can shoot decently, but not enough to command perimeter respect. Houston changes the game without touching the ball because of the respect he commands. I agree, perhaps we should replace the whole tire, but I don't think replacing it would require work to the extent that we have it bad. We have huge contracts coming off the books every year from now to 2009 and playing in the Mecca of basketball sure doesn?t hurt.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">yep the knicks do have it bad</div>
So much substance to this post. Anyway, what about the Sixers? Aren't they paying Webber a couple of million a year with injury issues. He has also been playing less than stellar basketball for the Sixers this season. Quite a surpise for the Sixers. Also AI is not getting any younger along with Mashburn who hasn't played at all for a season or two. You guys are paying him 10 million for the next couple of seasons. Also you have the 4th highest payroll in the league. I don't know if you have that much bragging to do if any.

 

[#3 Marbury]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">So much substance to this post. Anyway, what about the Sixers? Aren't they paying Webber a couple of million a year with injury issues. He has also been playing less than stellar basketball for the Sixers this season. Quite a surpise for the Sixers. Also AI is not getting any younger along with Mashburn who hasn't played at all for a season or two. You guys are paying him 10 million for the next couple of seasons. Also you have the 4th highest payroll in the league. I don't know if you have that much bragging to do if any.</div>
I agree the Sixers have it much worse than New York does, I would never want to have their team with a horrible contract like Chris Webber and his bum knee. Allen Iverson is such a ball-hog, he is totally a shoot-first point guard. NY is gonna be in the 3rd seed next year and eliminate philli.

 

[el_guasibiri]

hmmmm....Do you guys think Isiah will considered dealing Tim Thomas and Penny Hardaway to the Raptors for Jalen Rose????

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting el_guasibiri:</div><div class="quote_post">hmmmm....Do you guys think Isiah will considered dealing Tim Thomas and Penny Hardaway to the Raptors for Jalen Rose????</div>
Hopefully he won't be silly enough to do that.

 

[#3 Marbury]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Hopefully he won't be silly enough to do that.</div>
Isn't Jalen a crappy player? Jalen is out of his prime and can't play ball anymore. He is just a role-player for the crappy Raptors. Tim Thomas is younger and probably a better player than Jalen anyday.

 

[el_guasibiri]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Originally Posted by #3 Marbury
Isn't Jalen a crappy player? Jalen is out of his prime and can't play ball anymore. He is just a role-player for the crappy Raptors. Tim Thomas is younger and probably a better player than Jalen anyday</div>

Is not that I have any doubts with Tim Thomas,Im sure he can become a powerfull player but Jalen Rose is more efficient than Tim Thomas consistently Tim Thomas can give you good game's but he is not that consisten.Jalen Rose is, even this year Rose Statistic were more better than Tim's numbers.

Jalen Rose
PPG 18.5
RPG 3.4
APG 2.6
SPG .78
BPG .12

FG% .455
FT% .854
3P% .394
MPG 33.5

Tim Thomas

PPG 12.0
RPG 3.3
APG 1.5
SPG .58
BPG .24
FG% .439
FT% .786
3P% .409
MPG 27.3

 

[Mr. J]

Jalen Rose has a crappy contract as does Tim Thomas, but Tim Thomas expires in 2006 and I think Rose is done in 2007.

 

[el_guasibiri]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Originally Posted by Mr J
Jalen Rose has a crappy contract as does Tim Thomas, but Tim Thomas expires in 2006 and I think Rose is done in 2007.</div>

Be carefull on this one,because we are talking about Isiah Thomas and He likes to trade expiring contracts for contracts with 2 years or more.
And also he likes to involve draft picks.
so be on the lookout with this one.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

Jalen is a much better offensive player than Tim Thomas, Jalen can often times create his own shot. I would not place Tim Thomas even close to Jalen in value. Anyway I wouldn't want Tim Thomas for Jalen unless picks were involved. That is my Raptor fan perspective.

I don't think the Knicks need another scorer with average defense. Even though Jalen is an upgrade over Thomas.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SkiptoMyLue11:</div><div class="quote_post">Jalen is a much better offensive player than Tim Thomas, Jalen can often times create his own shot. I would not place Tim Thomas even close to Jalen in value. Anyway I wouldn't want Tim Thomas for Jalen unless picks were involved. That is my Raptor fan perspective.

I don't think the Knicks need another scorer with average defense. Even though Jalen is an upgrade over Thomas.</div>
Tim Thomas is a bum and Rose is/was better than him I just don't want that contract.

 

[#3 Marbury]

Tim Thomas is worth 50% of his contract, Jalen Rose is worth 7% of his one. I totally agree MR J

 

[el_guasibiri]

I don't know, but maybe I kind of think Isiah is not going to trade him,maybe he will let his contract expire in New York.And thinkin a lot and watching the game's I pretty like this lineup for next year.

PG Marbury
SG Houston
SF Thomas
PF Sweetney
C Thomas

Having Crawford coming off the bench as the six man
With Ariza improving a lot better for next season
I think we could go all the way up.