OT Kobe Bryant is Gone

[tlongII]

OJ wasn't a convicted killer either.

Correct, therefore you cannot accurately call him a murderer.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

He also stated that he believed it was consensual.

If I believe a house is mine, but it isn't, and I enter it, I'm still a trespasser.

I seriously doubt that "I thought she wanted it" is considered a valid defense against a rape allegation. If he had sex with her against her will, he raped her. Plain and simple.

 

[tlongII]

If I believe a house is mine, but it isn't, and I enter it, I'm still a trespasser.

I seriously doubt that "I thought she wanted it" is considered a valid defense against a rape allegation. If he had sex with her against her will, he raped her. Plain and simple.

How about if the "victim" refuses to testify?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

How about if the "victim" refuses to testify?

If he acknowledged, accepted, agreed that she didn't believe it to be consensual, how is whether or not she testified relevant? He confessed in writing.

 

[yankeesince59]

Correct, therefore you cannot accurately call him a murderer.

lol...you missed the point.

Do you seriously believe OJ was innocent?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

lol...you missed the point.

Do you seriously believe OJ was innocent?

Not posed to me, but I think the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" causes people to conflate "provable" with "true". I think OJ is "legally" innocent because he was acquitted, but the reality of whether or not he's a murderer is unaffected by the outcome of the trial.

 

[yankeesince59]

Not posed to me, but I think the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" causes people to conflate "provable" with "true". I think OJ is "legally" innocent because he was acquitted, but the reality of whether or not he's a murderer is unaffected by the outcome of the trial.

Very well said.

 

[donkiez]

Humans are complicated beings, there is good and bad in all of us. All of us have done things we are not proud of and all of us should be given the opportunity to learn and grow from them. I don't know the details of the Kobe "rape", all I know is that he was not convicted and he reached an agreement with the victim who they both felt was adequate. I dont give him the benefit of the doubt in this situation but I am not willing to lynch him for it either. Whatever happened I feel that Kobe repented and attempted to redeem himself afterwards and there was no other evidence of nefarious behavior before or after the event. I dont view him in the same category as Weinstein. R. Kelly, or Cosby and all indications are that in his later years he was becoming an advocate for women and sports. I also don't idolize him but I am sad that he died for the reasons of what his presence made an effect in my life. I also feel bad for the others who died but I knew nothing about them and I they were not part of my life so its hard for me to have a connection to them other than feel its a shitty situation that I hope i never find myself in. I find it odd that for some of you there is no gray area or middle ground, you think that either Kobe is an idol or a devil. He is neither, he is a man who played great basketball and showed an admiral spirit and tenacity in doing so. He died to young and did not deserve his end just like many others who die early do not deserve their fates. I feel that Kobe still had a lot of great things to give to this world and was in a unique position to do so, so its a tragedy that he was not given the opportunity to do just that. Weather or not he would use that opportunity is unknown and I suppose a point for argument.

 

[calvin natt]

Humans are complicated beings, there is good and bad in all of us. All of us have done things we are not proud of and all of us should be given the opportunity to learn and grow from them. I don't know the details of the Kobe "rape", all I know is that he was not convicted and he reached an agreement with the victim who they both felt was adequate. I dont give him the benefit of the doubt in this situation but I am not willing to lynch him for it either. Whatever happened I feel that Kobe repented and attempted to redeem himself afterwards and there was no other evidence of nefarious behavior before or after the event. I dont view him in the same category as Weinstein. R. Kelly, or Cosby and all indications are that in his later years he was becoming an advocate for women and sports. I also don't idolize him but I am sad that he died for the reasons of what his presence made an effect in my life. I also feel bad for the others who died but I knew nothing about them and I they were not part of my life so its hard for me to have a connection to them other than feel its a shitty situation that I hope i never find myself in. I find it odd that for some of you there is no gray area or middle ground, you think that either Kobe is an idol or a devil. He is neither, he is a man who played great basketball and showed an admiral spirit and tenacity in doing so. He died to young and did not deserve his end just like many others who die early do not deserve their fates. I feel that Kobe still had a lot of great things to give to this world and was in a unique position to do so, so its a tragedy that he was not given the opportunity to do just that. Weather or not he would use that opportunity is unknown and I suppose a point for argument.

Seems reasonable. So it should make sense for about half the people in here.

 

[calvin natt]

Are the Kobe haters sure there is absolutely no one they like or support who has been accused of a crime? Just want to make sure we are being crystal clear. For instance, if you have any part of you who let’s say, is ok with Trump, are you forgetting about the massive amount of sexual assault accusations against him? I’d love a list of all athletes you support too. Should take me about five minutes to blow that up.

 

[Mediocre Man]

To my knowledge a rapist is someone who has been convicted of rape. Kobe has never been convicted of rape, therefore he is not a rapist.

True. Accused of sexual assault, settled with the accuser for an estimated 2.5 million so it wouldn't go to civil trial, later admitted how he could see she did not view it as consensual, but you are correct.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Because the things he did that were praiseworthy were basketball-related, and the things he did that were condemnation-worthy were not?

Sure. There is never anything in the Blazer forum non basketball related.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Sure. There is never anything in the Blazer forum non basketball related.

Didn't say that; just offered a plausible and reasonable explanation for the separation.

 

[tlongII]

If he acknowledged, accepted, agreed that she didn't believe it to be consensual, how is whether or not she testified relevant? He confessed in writing.

He did not confess to a crime. That is part of the public record.

 

[Propagandist]

I'll be honest. I read about Kobe and sat down and actually cried (not like sobbing, but real tears). My reaction surprised me. It happened several more times afterwards as I watched players and coach talk about him, or at least try to. You can read my comments in the main part of the forum. It felt real and profound.

Then my wife asked me about incident in Colorado. I said, "It was dismissed." And that was what I remembered. We went out to dinner and had drinks and I was just in awe of how impactful his death was to me.

Then I read about the Washington Post reporter tweeting about the rape case and being suspended. And then I found this thread and read @Lanny's post.

Then I couldn't help but revisited the rape case: all the evidence, all the statements, etc. (I know he wasn't convicted, and I really don't want to debate about it, but the physical evidence is overwhelming, as well as his statements regarding the incident). Afterwards, something in me had changed. No one can deny the impact he had on us, on our world, on our team. No one can deny that his death was early and undeserved and tragic, and no one should. He seemed to be a good father, and a compassionate person. His daughter's death and those of all on board is just terrible. But like I said, something in me changed reading that stuff. I recognize the impact, but as a father of daughters, the emotional element of his death is completely gone for me.

Again, I don't feel the need to argue about it. But I thought I'd share because it seemed pertinent.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Didn't say that; just offered a plausible and reasonable explanation for the separation.

More than likely censorship

 

[Lanny]

To my knowledge a rapist is someone who has been convicted of rape. Kobe has never been convicted of rape, therefore he is not a rapist.

Here's how Time magazine described it -

"In July 2003, Bryant was charged with sexually assaulting a 19-year-old employee of the Lodge and Spa at Cordillera in Edwards, Colo. He admitted that he didn’t explicitly ask for consent and initially denied even having sex with the woman. He left a bruise on her neck and drew blood from her skin. After Bryant’s defense team badly intimidated the victim and smeared her reputation, she refused to testify. After the criminal case was dismissed, Bryant issued an apology that said, in part, “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.” He later settled for an undisclosed sum in a civil suit."

https://time.com/5773151/kobe-bryant-rape-case-complicated-legacy/

So, let's not quibble over the technical definition of rape. We all know what it means.

 

[illmatic99]

So, let's not quibble over the technical definition of rape. We all know what it means.

There's a guy in the Whitehouse who wants more clarity, as well as the people who conveniently sweep those allegations against him under the rug, just fyi.

 

[yankeesince59]

Here's how Time magazine described it -

"In July 2003, Bryant was charged with sexually assaulting a 19-year-old employee of the Lodge and Spa at Cordillera in Edwards, Colo. He admitted that he didn’t explicitly ask for consent and initially denied even having sex with the woman. He left a bruise on her neck and drew blood from her skin. After Bryant’s defense team badly intimidated the victim and smeared her reputation, she refused to testify. After the criminal case was dismissed, Bryant issued an apology that said, in part, “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.” He later settled for an undisclosed sum in a civil suit."

https://time.com/5773151/kobe-bryant-rape-case-complicated-legacy/

So, let's not quibble over the technical definition of rape. We all know what it means.

Yup, between high dollar lawyers, a smear campaign, and a monetary settlement, it seems clear to me that he knew what he did was wrong but he got away with it because he had the money to do so.

If it had been you or I, we would likely be sharing a jail cell with a guy named Bubba.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

 

[Mediocre Man]

There's a guy in the Whitehouse who wants more clarity, as well as the people who conveniently sweep those allegations against him under the rug, just fyi.

Who most everyone that is trashing people in this forum for their negative Kobe comments would be trashing had it been him instead of Kobe

 

[Minstrel]

To my knowledge a rapist is someone who has been convicted of rape. Kobe has never been convicted of rape, therefore he is not a rapist.

That's not how that works. A rapist is someone who commits rape--your definition implies that someone who rapes another person and is never caught is not actually a rapist, because they were never convicted. Or that a guilty person who beats the rap ceases to have actually committed rape.

I'm not saying Bryant is or isn't actually guilty--but the lack of conviction doesn't make him "not a rapist." Whether he actually committed rape is a question aside from what the legal outcome was. All the legal result means is that he's not legally culpable for rape.

 

[tlongII]

That's not how that works. A rapist is someone who commits rape--your definition implies that someone who rapes another person and is never caught is not actually a rapist, because they were never convicted. Or that a guilty person who beats the rap ceases to have actually committed rape.

I'm not saying Bryant is or isn't actually guilty--but the lack of conviction doesn't make him "not a rapist." Whether he actually committed rape is a question aside from what the legal outcome was. All the legal result means is that he's not legally culpable for rape.

Neither you nor I are aware of all the facts in the case. We are only aware of the outcome of the investigation. Therefore, not a rapist.

 

[Minstrel]

Neither you nor I are aware of all the facts in the case. We are only aware of the outcome of the investigation. Therefore, not a rapist.

Nope, therefore not legally culpable for rape. Whether he's a rapist is unknown to us.

Are you of the opinion that court cases or legal investigations only ever result in the truth, and that guilty people are never found not guilty or vice versa? If you believe that, that would be a little bizarre but at least consistent with your posts here. If you don't believe that, claiming "he was found not guilty, therefore he didn't commit rape" makes no sense logically. The best you can say is "he was found not guilty, so therefore I don't believe he committed rape."

 

[Mediocre Man]

Neither you nor I are aware of all the facts in the case. We are only aware of the outcome of the investigation. Therefore, not a rapist.

That's not really the case either. We are aware that

1. Investigation showed vaginal bruising constant of rape, and choke marks on her neck

2. A 2.5 million dollar settlement to avoid civil court

3. An interview where Kobe said he can see how she thought it wasn't consensual

 

[VanillaGorilla]

3. An interview where Kobe said he can see how she thought it wasn't consensual

He said he can see how she currently (at the time of that interview) feels that it wasn't consensual. He did not say he sees how she thought at the time of the incident it wasn't consensual. Slight difference that I think changes what he "admitted" to.

 

[Lanny]

Yup, between high dollar lawyers, a smear campaign, and a monetary settlement, it seems clear to me that he knew what he did was wrong but he got away with it because he had the money to do so.

If it had been you or I, we would likely be sharing a jail cell with a guy named Bubba.

When I worked at Boeing building jumbo jets there was a guy from Texas who used to call me 'bubba'. He said it was a complimentary term.
When I quit Boeing to return to Portland I lost touch with him, something I deeply regret. This guy was what one of my Alabama uncles use to call the salt of the earth.

 

[Mediocre Man]

He said he can see how she currently (at the time of that interview) feels that it wasn't consensual. He did not say he sees how she thought at the time of the incident it wasn't consensual. Slight difference that I think changes what he "admitted" to.

Never admitted to anything, if I recall correctly.

 

[yankeesince59]

He said he can see how she currently (at the time of that interview) feels that it wasn't consensual. He did not say he sees how she thought at the time of the incident it wasn't consensual. Slight difference that I think changes what he "admitted" to.

I don't see what difference it makes exactly when Kobe said "he can see how she thought it wasn't consensual"...he certainly would not have said that before he paid the girl off.

IMO, MM's point stands.

 

[Mediocre Man]

When I worked at Boeing building jumbo jets there was a guy from Texas who used to call me 'bubba'. He said it was a complimentary term.
When I quit Boeing to return to Portland I lost touch with him, something I deeply regret. This guy was what one of my Alabama uncles use to call the salt of the earth.

Living in Texas now, I've met a few Bubba's. You're right, greatest guys ever. There is a Bubba who lives 1 street over that I am friends with. ALWAYS willing to help with anything. I joke with him that he's the kinda guy that will give you the shirt off his back if he ever wore one