Kristaps Porzingis

[SharpesTriumph]

We won 3 playoff games in that time. And then we purposely tanked the next two years.

Yes, and OKC has won the same 3 playoff games in that span too.

It's not like we're the Celtics breaking up Pierce and Garnett who just had some good playoff runs the last few years. We've done nothing for 4 years straight, and lost a good two way starter a few months ago when we were a lottery team.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Of course not. Just pointing out that there's no more reason to believe that building a contender through the draft is going to be successful than there is through rebuilding around Dame.

Dozens of teams have built contenders through the draft.

Only 4 players have led teams to titles when older than Dame; LBJ MJ Wilt Kareem.

Yeah I'd say building a contender through the draft is much more likely than building a contender around Dame.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Everything in that post is true.

It was.
Same with mine that you responded to.
If Jokic or Murray get injured like what happened to Giannis or as recently as last year with Murray? Butler is lifting that trophy and the Heat as a two game playin team from the 8th seed are celebrating another championship. Remember the Heat actually took home court advantage from the Nuggets.
Not to mention the Lakers as a 7th seed making the Conference Finals in the West advancing through last years champs.

I simply cannot believe i had to explain that to you. Honestly i don't think i needed to. You're just being defiant because you took a stand for tanking. It's alright though. I get it. The Blazers would have had to make some solid moves at the deadline to be in a position to compete. Those moves might not have been available or just not something they wanted to pursue. Either way they ended up with a better pick than the 7th pick which was very likely. Hoping for the best.

 

[wizenheimer]

Dozens of teams have built contenders through the draft.

since Portland won the championship, they've had 4 top-4 picks including two #1's and two #2's; they've had 11 top-10 picks, and 19 top-14 picks

essentially 34 lottery picks in 45 years, including four #1's and #2's and 7 other top-10 picks. And they have probably only spent 4 years as a contender in those 45 years. Three with Clyde and one with Pippen

maybe the draft is the best path for a small market team like Portland, but it's not really a good path.

 

[e_blazer]

Disagree. Building a contender isn't usually something that can be done in a matter of a couple seasons, unless you're able to attract superstars through free agency (which we do not.)

Boston (KG/Ray/Pierce)
Miami (Wade/LeBron/Bosh)
Lakers (LeBron/AD)
Cleveland (drafted Kyrie/signed LeBron/traded for Love)

It's funny because three of those four teams had LeBron... so we just need to get LeBron. Boston is really our best hope for a template, but I don't think we have the resources to go get a KG and Ray Allen.

The other teams took years to build.

Golden State (drafted Curry/Klay/Draymond)
Nuggets (drafted Jokic/Murray/MPJ)
Spurs (drafted Duncan/Parker/Manu)
Bucks (drafted Giannis and traded for Jrue and Middleton)

There are several things I have issues with regarding your analysis:

1. The metric Dame has set, and frankly that every GM uses, is “contender”, not “champion”. That’s the metric because in addition to roster construction it takes health and luck to win a title and those are two factors that no one can control.

2. You’re homing in on big three superstar teams. That’s not a model that small markets are ever going to have much of a chance with. Think the Blazers championship team: Walton superstar, Lucas and Hollis stars, and a bunch of quality roll players. Same model nearly worked during the Drexler era. It worked for Milwaukee and for Toronto.

3. You, and every draft builder fan, point to the difficulties in adding star players, but you overlook the advantages of being able to pick established players that fit well together and who have track records that can be studied. Rookies are big blanks that teams take crapshoots on.

4. You underestimate the problems of building that way. Learning curves run past initial contracts making it a long process. Players struggle with all kinds of things on and off court that can derail careers before they get started, jealousies over pecking order, unknown injury problem tendencies, and the ever-present draw of major markets that can steal players away just as they are beginning to get their act together.

Neither path is likely to succeed. At least with Dame you have a central mega talent that you know is a great leader and can help the pieces fit together. The odds of finding that elusive element again in any reasonable time frame are not good.

 

[e_blazer]

Dozens of teams have built contenders through the draft.

Only 4 players have led teams to titles when older than Dame; LBJ MJ Wilt Kareem.

Yeah I'd say building a contender through the draft is much more likely than building a contender around Dame.

Dozens? Really? I’ll sit and wait while you find 10 that didn’t need to add an All-Star talent via free agency or trade before becoming a contender.

 

[Shaboid]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. And Dame is that Big Bird.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Dozens? Really? I’ll sit and wait while you find 10 that didn’t need to add an All-Star talent via free agency or trade before becoming a contender.

There are lots better things to do other than sitting and waiting for an answer you know will never come.

 

[RonBrewer]

Dozens of teams have built contenders through the draft.

Only 4 players have led teams to titles when older than Dame; LBJ MJ Wilt Kareem.

Yeah I'd say building a contender through the draft is much more likely than building a contender around Dame.

Meh, Get Zion, team could be built around him. Get another Vet, Dame may end up being the second best piece. Doesn't have to be Dame leading us to the championship.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Meh, Get Zion, team could be built around him. Get another Vet, Dame may end up being the second best piece. Doesn't have to be Dame leading us to the championship.

Thing is even if he is older he would still be the leader and team captain.
No matter what it’s Damian Lillard’s team.

 

[RonBrewer]

Thing is even if he is older he would still be the leader and team captain.
No matter what it’s Damian Lillard’s team.

No question. It is until it isn't. I'm a huge Dame fan. I want the team to win with Dame. I want him to retire a lifelong Blazer. i want the Blazers to be successful. Both can happen

 

[Natebishop3]

There are several things I have issues with regarding your analysis:

1. The metric Dame has set, and frankly that every GM uses, is “contender”, not “champion”. That’s the metric because in addition to roster construction it takes health and luck to win a title and those are two factors that no one can control.

Contender means you have a legitimate shot at winning a championship. How many teams would you say are contenders in the NBA right now?

2. You’re homing in on big three superstar teams. That’s not a model that small markets are ever going to have much of a chance with. Think the Blazers championship team: Walton superstar, Lucas and Hollis stars, and a bunch of quality roll players. Same model nearly worked during the Drexler era. It worked for Milwaukee and for Toronto.

I'm honing in on the teams that have won championships in the past 20 years. The problem with looking at Milwaukee or Toronto is that their best players were top 5 two way players. Giannis and Kawhi are top 5 talents who can dominate on BOTH ends of the floor. Dame is not that guy and he will never be that guy. He's a 6'3 point guard who only plays one side of the court. The Warriors were able to win with that kind of player, but the rest of the team was constructed in such a way to mask that weakness. It took years for them to draft that talent, add it in free agency, and trade for it.

3. You, and every draft builder fan, point to the difficulties in adding star players, but you overlook the advantages of being able to pick established players that fit well together and who have track records that can be studied. Rookies are big blanks that teams take crapshoots on.

The reason why I lean towards the draft is because almost every single team that has won a championship has had a generational talent. Most of those generational players were taken in the top 10 draft picks. Some of them were found later, like Giannis or Jokic, but players like LeBron, Shaq, Tim Duncan, and Steph Curry were taken in the lottery. Even Dame was taken 6th. To have a realistic shot at getting one of those caliber of players, you have to be in the lottery. We don't sign them as free agents and we sure haven't been able to trade for them. Every single star the Blazers have had has come through the draft. Either our outright pick or a pick we traded for.

Walton
Drexler
Roy
Aldridge
Lillard

And now hopefully Sharpe and whoever we draft next week.

4. You underestimate the problems of building that way. Learning curves run past initial contracts making it a long process. Players struggle with all kinds of things on and off court that can derail careers before they get started, jealousies over pecking order, unknown injury problem tendencies, and the ever-present draw of major markets that can steal players away just as they are beginning to get their act together.

Sure, but at least you have a chance at maybe drafting a generational guy. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

Neither path is likely to succeed. At least with Dame you have a central mega talent that you know is a great leader and can help the pieces fit together. The odds of finding that elusive element again in any reasonable time frame are not good.

We have Dame for a few more years. It is unlikely that we will be back in the lottery again unless Dame asks out or we suffer catastrophic injuries. So this is it. This is the summer. We either go all in on Dame, or we rebuild. It doesn't feel like there will be a middle ground from here on out.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Contender means you have a legitimate shot at winning a championship. How many teams would you say are contenders in the NBA right now?

This is such an old and quite frankly bad take. A contender is making the playoffs and being healthy on top of playing well.
Nobody had The Heat as contenders but there they were “Contending”.
Next you’re going to say a play in team can’t contend.

 

[Natebishop3]

This is such an old and quite frankly bad take. A contender is making the playoffs and being healthy on top of playing well.
Nobody had The Heat as contenders but there they were “Contending”.
Next you’re going to say a play in team can’t contend.

 

[e_blazer]

Contender means you have a legitimate shot at winning a championship. How many teams would you say are contenders in the NBA right now?



I'm honing in on the teams that have won championships in the past 20 years. The problem with looking at Milwaukee or Toronto is that their best players were top 5 two way players. Giannis and Kawhi are top 5 talents who can dominate on BOTH ends of the floor. Dame is not that guy and he will never be that guy. He's a 6'3 point guard who only plays one side of the court. The Warriors were able to win with that kind of player, but the rest of the team was constructed in such a way to mask that weakness. It took years for them to draft that talent, add it in free agency, and trade for it.



The reason why I lean towards the draft is because almost every single team that has won a championship has had a generational talent. Most of those generational players were taken in the top 10 draft picks. Some of them were found later, like Giannis or Jokic, but players like LeBron, Shaq, Tim Duncan, and Steph Curry were taken in the lottery. Even Dame was taken 6th. To have a realistic shot at getting one of those caliber of players, you have to be in the lottery. We don't sign them as free agents and we sure haven't been able to trade for them. Every single star the Blazers have had has come through the draft. Either our outright pick or a pick we traded for.

Walton
Drexler
Roy
Aldridge
Lillard

And now hopefully Sharpe and whoever we draft next week.



Sure, but at least you have a chance at maybe drafting a generational guy. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.



We have Dame for a few more years. It is unlikely that we will be back in the lottery again unless Dame asks out or we suffer catastrophic injuries. So this is it. This is the summer. We either go all in on Dame, or we rebuild. It doesn't feel like there will be a middle ground from here on out.

I could quibble a bit with some of your points, but it’s really not necessary. I’m in favor of the Blazers using and keeping the 3rd pick. I just want them to do enough in the way of other moves to keep Dame satisfied. As I have said in other posts, I think there are moves they can make to provide enough veterans to accomplish that. I don’t expect for the Blazers to be favored to be a top-4 team in the West with those moves, but top-6 is reachable. After that, it’s a matter of health and luck.

You ask me right now, who’s a contender in the West and I can’t answer that. Is Phoenix a contender? Looks like they have a nice big three, but are they going to have any depth? Is Durant’s health going to hold up? He’s older than Dame (who we all know is too old to build around), has been hurt more and has a lot of miles on him. My Ouija board and Magic 8 Ball are giving me the shoulder shrug.

 

[Natebishop3]

I could quibble a bit with some of your points, but it’s really not necessary. I’m in favor of the Blazers using and keeping the 3rd pick. I just want them to do enough in the way of other moves to keep Dame satisfied. As I have said in other posts, I think there are moves they can make to provide enough veterans to accomplish that. I don’t expect for the Blazers to be favored to be a top-4 team in the West with those moves, but top-6 is reachable. After that, it’s a matter of health and luck.

You ask me right now, who’s a contender in the West and I can’t answer that. Is Phoenix a contender? Looks like they have a nice big three, but are they going to have any depth? Is Durant’s health going to hold up? He’s older than Dame (who we all know is too old to build around), has been hurt more and has a lot of miles on him. My Ouija board and Magic 8 Ball are giving me the shoulder shrug.

I agree that we should still be able to add enough veteran talent to keep Dame happy, in theory...... but he specifically mentioned not wanting to play with another 19 year old rookie. So it's a weird conundrum. He didn't seem to repeat that specific thought when he did that interview a couple weeks ago, so maybe he backed off.

 

[wizenheimer]

I agree that we should still be able to add enough veteran talent to keep Dame happy, in theory...... but he specifically mentioned not wanting to play with another 19 year old rookie. So it's a weird conundrum. He didn't seem to repeat that specific thought when he did that interview a couple weeks ago, so maybe he backed off.

Brandon Miller will be 21 next season so he's exempt for the Dame exclusion rule

 

[Ed O]

This is such an old and quite frankly bad take. A contender is making the playoffs and being healthy on top of playing well.
Nobody had The Heat as contenders but there they were “Contending”.
Next you’re going to say a play in team can’t contend.

The Heat was a contender in spite of being a play-in team, not BECAUSE they're a play-in team. They just were in the finals a couple of years ago. They were the one seed last year. Your logic is all backwards.

Also, your definition is nonsense. Your definition makes over half the league into "contender" status. You can use it, but no one with any sense will agree with you.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

The Heat was a contender in spite of being a play-in team, not BECAUSE they're a play-in team. They just were in the finals a couple of years ago. They were the one seed last year. Your logic is all backwards.

Also, your definition is nonsense. Your definition makes over half the league into "contender" status. You can use it, but no one with any sense will agree with you.

Yeah? Go make another petition. I hear your good at that.

 

[Ed O]

Yeah? Go make another petition. I hear your good at that.

Leave my good out of it.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

KP is being traded to Boston, Brogdon to the Clippers, picks and filler to Washington.

 

[Tince]

KP is being traded to Boston, Brogdon to the Clippers, picks and filler to Washington.

 

[Tince]

 

[Tince]

 

[RonBrewer]

Wish we had gone after KP for a late round pick. Washington is giving the house away for free

 

[RR7]

Wish we had gone after KP for a late round pick. Washington is giving the house away for free

We just need 25+ in expiring contracts to make it happen. Curious if Boston will be able to pull it off without Clippers

 

[Ed O]

Wish we had gone after KP for a late round pick. Washington is giving the house away for free

There are only two rounds, and we'd need to match salaries, so... there's no way to get him for cheap given our roster/contract situation.

 

[Tince]

 

[Tince]

 

[TBpup]

KP is being traded to Boston, Brogdon to the Clippers, picks and filler to Washington.

Trade is off as Brogdon had medical issues. May still go through as a 2-team trade with some different pieces but still including KP.