Leave Carter Alone!!!

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The most persistent suitor for Carter's services has been New York Knicks general manager Isiah Thomas, who, according to sources, is not at all concerned about Carter's sore foot.

Of course, there are many other Knicks who could be packaged in a Carter deal. Thomas was asked if there's a fit to be found.

"I don't know," he said. "I know this -- in this league you don't have a deal until it's done. But when players are being talked about, such as Vince Carter, my job is to be interested and see if I can find out what's going on." </div>
Link

It seems like Isiah Thomas is still trying to go after this guy Vince Carter. Isiah Leave him alone!!! Why would you continue to go after someone who is a bad fit for the team, and his injury prone? Does anyone know the answer? Allan Houston is a perfect fit for the Knicks. He and Marbury, are your ideal backcourt. Last year, they were the highest scoring backcourt in there 21 games they played. We do not need Carter! At the SF spot we don't have anyone but, the only way I'll want Carter is for TT straight up. We don't need him and plus if we want to make a strong playoff push the absolute last thing we need is Vince Carter with another one of his numerous injuries. Correct me if I'm wrong but, I know I heard this somewhere in JBB that his name was halfman half season. What a perfect name. Isiah, this guy is <u>already</u> on the injuried list and you still want him? He wont be able to do anything but score like 12ppg. That's my word! We already have such effective options on offense that everyones scoring will go down. Carter with his fallaway fadeaway shots is no way stretching the floor for us. Keep the frail, dead guy away from us.

 

[02civic]

frail and dead...i dunno man...he's a pretty good size. He jumps like a mofo, even still. He can still out dunk anyone on your team. He's probably a better jump shooter than anyone on your team...Houston not included. He's a great passer. Dont act like he's nothing. 12ppg...plaase. He'd be a 18-20 guy on your team.
Carter for TT dont make me laugh.

"Why would you continue to go after someone who is a bad fit for the team, and his injury prone? Does anyone know the answer? Allan Houston is a perfect fit for the Knicks."

HELLO...HELLO.....Houston IS injury prone. He plays no defence, when you guys really need someone to play defence. Carter can stretch the D as much as Houston...he's got a good 3 shot, a great jumper and if properly motivated he can beat anyone in the game off the dribble.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">frail and dead...i dunno man...he's a pretty good size. He jumps like a mofo, even still. He can still out dunk anyone on your team. He's probably a better jump shooter than anyone on your team...Houston not included. He's a great passer. Dont act like he's nothing. 12ppg...plaase. He'd be a 18-20 guy on your team.
Carter for TT dont make me laugh.

"Why would you continue to go after someone who is a bad fit for the team, and his injury prone? Does anyone know the answer? Allan Houston is a perfect fit for the Knicks."

HELLO...HELLO.....Houston IS injury prone. He plays no defence, when you guys really need someone to play defence. Carter can stretch the D as much as Houston...he's got a good 3 shot, a great jumper and if properly motivated he can beat anyone in the game off the dribble.</div>

Who cares whether he can dunk. I sure dont. To quote Tribute to H2O: "We are about to destroy chemistry and wins for a few more highlight reels and I dont know about all of you but I'd rather have the wins." Whether Carter still has his legs is or not doesn't make him more valuable. If Carter is still that 18-20 guy why is he averaging 16ppg? If Carter's shooting his so spectacular why is his fg% only at 41% higher than Jamal Crawford. He doesn't even have a better shot than Marbury, so I don't know what you mean when you say he shoots better than everyone on the team (except Houston). Good 3 shot at 32%? In my book that's not a great 3 point shooter. If I were out there guarding Vince and I saw someone getting posted up I would double in a heart beat because the man shoots 32% from 3! He might be a decent passer but, NY has that too. He wouldn't be giving us anything extra with his passing. When you said Carter can stretch the defense as much as Houston was that a joke? I sure hope it was. It can be argued that Allan Houston doesn't have that great ball handling but, that just shows how good he is. If Allan Houston doesn't drive and only shoots jumpers and still finds a way to score 20+ppg, he has to obviously is an absolute outstanding shooter. Carter is not an outstanding shooter. Nor is he even a good shooter in my oppinion. Just a decent one. An excellent shooter will stop any zone, and spread the floor. An excellent shooter believe it or not, will spread the floor more than an injury prone athlete with a high vertical who is almost pronounced dead. Carter is definitely not playing spectacular basketball at all. I don't even now if we can call him a "superstar" anymore. More like a falling star. I wouldn't call Houston injury prone. He had one major injury due to overcompensation on his first game last season. Prior to that he had 11 missed games throughout his entire career. Carter missed almost 100 games. Carter is injuried right now as we speak! Even if you were to say Houston is injury prone you have definitely have to include Carter being way more injury prone. Carter isn't that great a defender himself. He doesn't put that much effort on defense. Houston may be a defensive liability but, he is still more beneficial than Carter. And all that stuff off the dribble isn't going to make him better for us. We already have Crawford who is a better ballhandler, and the way it looks now is on a better route than Vince Carter is.

 

[McGrady^1]

mrj18..do u even watch raptor games?
vince for tt....thats like trading shaq for milt...
If we actually ran plays for Carter and got him the minutes he needed..and he actually wanted toplay in Toronto...i m sure he can avg 22 5 5 easily ....

 

[Mr. J]

I never at all believed Toronto would accept the trade. I said that is the only trade I would do. I don't want to mess up chemistry and I don't want to give up Allan Houston for him. Trust me I know Toronto gets the short end of the stick trading TT for Carter!

 

[02civic]

mrj18 i can honeltly say that you dont know what you're talking about.

"If Carter is still that 18-20 guy why is he averaging 16ppg?"

MAYBE...JUST MAYBE...because he doesnt get plays run for him. Maybe just MAYBE....because his heart isnt with the team so he's focused enough.

"If Carter's shooting his so spectacular why is his fg% only at 41% higher than Jamal Crawford."

YA....you get him. Carter sucks at shooting because he's shooting better than crawford.....what a joke. You're basing everything, your entire hand on the few games played this season and this season alone. Carter has a 44.6 FG%, and a 38.3 3-point %. Those arent bad numbers for a gaurd. YOUR PRECIOUS ALLAN HOUSTON IS A 44.5% FG SHOOTER AND 40.2% 3-BALL SHOOTER. So you see statistically he's a worse shooter than Carter...and less than a 2% better 3baller. So am i joking.....oh ya i'm joking. Houstons great...carter sucks.

Carter's a better shooter than anyone else on your team, and not far off Houston
Carter's a better jumper, and more athletic than anyone on your team
Carter's a better defender than your starting SG and SF and your 6thman SG.
Carter's a better passer than your starting SG and SF and your 6thman SG.
Carter's better than everyone on your team, except maybe Marbury

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU SAY HE'S NOT A GOOD SHOOTER...THOUGH HE'S GOT A BETTER AVERAGE THAN YOUR SHARPSHOOTER. You say you dont need his dribble penetration because Crawford does that.
And how "He might be a decent passer but, NY has that too.",

You talk like this is some sort of fantasy league where you only need on guy for each catagory.
"And all that stuff off the dribble isn't going to make him better for us. We already have Crawford who is a better ballhandler"

How do you figure he's a better ballhandler...he's getting twice the turnovers a game as Vince and their pretty equal in assists. So what grounds do you have for this?? And who cares...isnt more of a good quality better...you can never have to many players that can go both inside an out. Can you???

Man oh man, why am i bothering...you're just gunna post something up about how you dont need X because "this bench warmer" can do that almost as good....and you dont need Y because "this different bench warmer" can do that.

 

[MaStA_MiNdZ]

good post civic

 

[thedude9990]

ok housten and tim thomas or carter

 

[Mr. J]

The career stats are different from what Carter's done in recent years. Vince Carter was great player back in his prime. He was even better than Houston. But, he has been going down in recent years right? One can not deny that. So because he shoots .1% throughout his entire career higher than Houston doesn't make him a better shooter. I got news for you sunshine: his glory days are over. VC doesn't have a better shot than Marbury.

What we need is great shooting that will stetch the floor. If VC could do that in 20games (which is much time to prove something,) why hasn't he. If he was as great a shooter as you said he would be shooting higher. No question. I don't want to hear that running play stuff. If he is doing well the team is going give the ball to him. He is still there primary option if not secondary. We don't need dribble penetration, what we need is shooting better than Carter's. Maybe because Crawford is a young guy adjusting from losing ways, he might have a problem with to's sometimes. Also Carter's injuries are rediculous! Just when you need him he's injuried. I still don't understand. Tell me if Carter becomes a Knick in a trade for Houston, how will it work out for us? Man oh man why am I bother...you're going to post something like the Raptors are the greatest...we've had a harder schedule than you...or the Knicks are garbage.

 

[Mr.Wade]

Vince is overrated and washedup... 'nuff said.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Tell me if Carter becomes a Knick in a trade for Houston, how will it work out for us? Man oh man why am I bother...you're going to post something like the Raptors are the greatest...we've had a harder schedule than you...or the Knicks are garbage.</div>

not going to go into everything esle you said cause you really are quite silly.

But i will answer this question:

1) Lower salary
2) Younger
3) Better defender
4) Better dribbler
5) Better Passer
6) Better penetrator
7) Not far off the pace as far as shooting % goes..and winning on the career

 

[Tribute to H2O]

Wait wait wait....there's actually a discussion being held about who's the better shooter, Houston or Carter??? Wow. I just dont know what to say. 02civic if you honestly believe that Carter is a better shooter then you're beyond my or anyone else's help. Seriously. I'm not joking. Houston was a lousy shooter when he first entered the league. If I remember correctly he didnt shoot over 30% from three point range. That kind of percentage would definetely hurt his career numbers. It wasnt until he came to New York that he became something like the shooter he is now. Why dont we talk about recent history? Houston shot over 43% from three point range last season and he was hurt. Do you have any idea what kind of percentage Vince Carter(who usually shoots two pointers) has to shoot at to compensate? Here's a clue it's higher then he shoots now and has been shooting in the last couple of years.

Now that that's settled. I'm going to make it perfectly clear for you 02civic. New York doesnt need Vince Carter. I cant make it any more plain. Right about now the only player that should be given up for Vince Carter is TT. Even then I'm not too sure. We already have enough firepower without TT producing and without Carter besides TT's contract expires next season so yeah I'd probably rather have TT right now. There is absolutely nothing Carter can give us that we dont already have except for highlights and I dont care for those. Houston is more valuable to us right now than Vince. Do you see how the game changes when Houston is on the court?? He doesnt need the ball to make his prescence felt. Which will make Marbury's and Crawford's job and Sweetney's job and Nazr's job and a few other players job's much much easier. All of that and he doesnt have to do anything but stay around on the court. Vince cant do that. No team would dare play a zone defense while Houston's on the court. That's a given. Does Vince have that kind of an impact? No. He doesnt. Never had, never will. Houston's simply more efficent and much more of a team player. Do you know what Houston's scouting report says, "Dont leave him, forget about helping defend against other Knicks." I'm not sure what Carter's report says but it's probably something to the effect of, "Laugh as he fadeaway jumpers himself into another bad game."

You say the reason why Carter is doing such a lousy job is because they dont run plays for him. Well why would they run plays for him?? You've got you're logic backwards. They dont run plays for him because he's doing a lousy job. That's the only reason why the Raptors won so many games this season because they dont run plays for Vince. I speak only the truth.

1) He isnt making much less money than Houston
2) He might be younger but he certainly isnt playing like it.
3) Please Houston and Carter both put the same effort in defense. Stop kidding yourself.
4) He's a better ball handler so what?
5) He is a better passer.
6) Isnt this the same thing as dribbling?
7) I'll just go on pretending you never said Vince was a better shooter than Allan and I think it's best if you do the same.
You forgot a few things though:
8) Has absolutely no heart.
9) Never won anything.
10) Mr. Wade said it best, "Vince is overrated and washedup... 'nuff said."

Now its done. For all of his skills and attributes its obvious he's nothing more than another high flying scorer and will be nothing more. I dare say he's a loser at heart. What has he won? Houston's reputation proceeds itself. He's played in way more playoff games(been the leading scorer on these teams), been to the Finals once(did it with an undersized frontline, Ewing hurt, LJ hurting), Eastern Conference Finals twice, All Star team(he didnt have to be a dunker to do it), and was the player of the game for the gold medal game in the Olympics(correct me if I'm wrong). The most Vince Carter has ever won is a slam dunk contest. Way to go Mr. Carter. Vince Carter is in his late twenties and is already on the downside of his career. Nobody wants to touch him except Isiah Thomas and he's an idiot. Allan Houston's the best offer the Raptors have gotten for Vince Carter so what does that tell you? So please keep the slam dunk champion, excuse me former slam dunk champion up north. Here in New York City we care about wins. We like highlights but we like wins even more(I tip my hat off to anyone who's read this far).

 

[jbbPrimetime]

Vince Carter is not as good and/ or better shooter than Allan Houston.

Though what should be noted, and this is my opinion, is that despite not being a better shooter, Vince Carter is a better scorer.

Do I want him in New York? No, why?

Lets just keep the same team for at least half a season at least Isiah.

 

[Jurassic]

Allan Houston, Vin Baker, and Vince Carter on the same team?

Well Isiah is either smart or very stupid. He's giving a lot of players second chances, which is smart, because he's compiling quality players that get overlooked by other teams. He also picked up Marbury, who was categorized as selfish, but has been great for your team.

Then again....he let the Czar get away.

The Knicks have enough talent to grab homecourt, it they do I think that we should consider Isiah a success. However you guys are still plagued by having too many people at the same position, which is why I would be against the VC deal.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Wait wait wait....there's actually a discussion being held about who's the better shooter, Houston or Carter??? Wow. I just dont know what to say. 02civic if you honestly believe that Carter is a better shooter then you're beyond my or anyone else's help. Seriously. I'm not joking. Houston was a lousy shooter when he first entered the league. If I remember correctly he didnt shoot over 30% from three point range. That kind of percentage would definetely hurt his career numbers. It wasnt until he came to New York that he became something like the shooter he is now. Why dont we talk about recent history? Houston shot over 43% from three point range last season and he was hurt. Do you have any idea what kind of percentage Vince Carter(who usually shoots two pointers) has to shoot at to compensate? Here's a clue it's higher then he shoots now and has been shooting in the last couple of years.

Now that that's settled. I'm going to make it perfectly clear for you 02civic. New York doesnt need Vince Carter. I cant make it any more plain. Right about now the only player that should be given up for Vince Carter is TT. Even then I'm not too sure. We already have enough firepower without TT producing and without Carter besides TT's contract expires next season so yeah I'd probably rather have TT right now. There is absolutely nothing Carter can give us that we dont already have except for highlights and I dont care for those. Houston is more valuable to us right now than Vince. Do you see how the game changes when Houston is on the court?? He doesnt need the ball to make his prescence felt. Which will make Marbury's and Crawford's job and Sweetney's job and Nazr's job and a few other players job's much much easier. All of that and he doesnt have to do anything but stay around on the court. Vince cant do that. No team would dare play a zone defense while Houston's on the court. That's a given. Does Vince have that kind of an impact? No. He doesnt. Never had, never will. Houston's simply more efficent and much more of a team player. Do you know what Houston's scouting report says, "Dont leave him, forget about helping defend against other Knicks." I'm not sure what Carter's report says but it's probably something to the effect of, "Laugh as he fadeaway jumpers himself into another bad game."

You say the reason why Carter is doing such a lousy job is because they dont run plays for him. Well why would they run plays for him?? You've got you're logic backwards. They dont run plays for him because he's doing a lousy job. That's the only reason why the Raptors won so many games this season because they dont run plays for Vince. I speak only the truth.

1) He isnt making much less money than Houston
2) He might be younger but he certainly isnt playing like it.
3) Please Houston and Carter both put the same effort in defense. Stop kidding yourself.
4) He's a better ball handler so what?
5) He is a better passer.
6) Isnt this the same thing as dribbling?
7) I'll just go on pretending you never said Vince was a better shooter than Allan and I think it's best if you do the same.
You forgot a few things though:
8) Has absolutely no heart.
9) Never won anything.
10) Mr. Wade said it best, "Vince is overrated and washedup... 'nuff said."

Now its done. For all of his skills and attributes its obvious he's nothing more than another high flying scorer and will be nothing more. I dare say he's a loser at heart. What has he won? Houston's reputation proceeds itself. He's played in way more playoff games(been the leading scorer on these teams), been to the Finals once(did it with an undersized frontline, Ewing hurt, LJ hurting), Eastern Conference Finals twice, All Star team(he didnt have to be a dunker to do it), and was the player of the game for the gold medal game in the Olympics(correct me if I'm wrong). The most Vince Carter has ever won is a slam dunk contest. Way to go Mr. Carter. Vince Carter is in his late twenties and is already on the downside of his career. Nobody wants to touch him except Isiah Thomas and he's an idiot. Allan Houston's the best offer the Raptors have gotten for Vince Carter so what does that tell you? So please keep the slam dunk champion, excuse me former slam dunk champion up north. Here in New York City we care about wins. We like highlights but we like wins even more(I tip my hat off to anyone who's read this far).</div>


wow....you sir are a genious. I wish I was like you...so that i was half as smart.

YOU:

"02civic if you honestly believe that Carter is a better shooter then you're beyond my or anyone else's help. Seriously. I'm not joking"
"I'll just go on pretending you never said Vince was a better shooter than Allan and I think it's best if you do the same"

ME:
"Carter can stretch the D as much as Houston...he's got a good 3 shot, a great jumper and if properly motivated he can beat anyone in the game off the dribble"
"Carter's a better shooter than anyone else on your team, and not far off Houston"

^ what does that tell you...where did i say he was better...i said he was "not far off"


"If I remember correctly he didnt shoot over 30% from three point range. "

that was one year son....its not gunna make THAT much of a difference, still doesnt make him heads and tails above carter as far as shooting goes.

Here's the problem that you're not getting. I do think that Houstons a better shooter, but thats all he's better at. Sure vince isnt the best defender but he's better than Houston. He's quicker, faster, a better passer, younger, more athletic, better defender, better rebounder, actually able to penetrate and "not far off" as far as shooting goes. Not to mention considerably cheaper...and yes he is cheaper. So the only think Houston gives you is a better shot...for all those weaknesses.... hey if you think that gives Houston the edge you've got more problems then i figured.

EDIT: i'm gunna add in about Houston...sure he makes people pay for doubling off of him..but really....how many players does New York have that the real playoff teams are going to have to double on a regular basis? They aint gunna double TT, crawford and marbury dont even command a consistent double team. Nazr's not gunna command a double, not versus the real teams that you guys are gunna meet in the playoffs, assuming you get past the first round or even in the playoffs.(though i'm 90% sure you will get in, but you never know in this league). And dont give me that Sweetney garbage...he's not on the floor 17 minutes a game and you think he's gunna make all the difference in the world?! So while there will be doubles that Houston will make them pay on, its not like he's in tandem with Shaq or KG/Duncan. Sure Houston can hurt you in doubles...but he's worse in every other catagory compared to a washed up Carter. So are those few extra jump shots worth it to you. Hey thats your call bud.


not gunna bother going on about this, cause you guys dont seem to use logic. Just keep talking like Vince is garbage when he's more talented than everyone on your team, and neck and neck with Marbury. But hey...Houston can shoot the 3 ball.

Good luck with that

 

[02civic]

to finish off i wanted to correct you on a few things

1) Carters 3 ball % was horrible his first year as well...actually worse than Houstons as far as %'s go, so there goes that arguement for you

2) Houston actually shot better in his 2nd and 3rd seasons with Detroit then he did with NY during his first 3 years. And since coming to New York 9 years ago, Houston has had only 3 years in which he's shot better than in those 2 seasons with Detroit.

Keep telling yourself that Allan Houston is better than Vince Carter. Hey Vince has his problems, but thats what this thread was about. It was about one kid talking like Vince Carter was garbage and horrible, when fact is he's STILL better than the guys you've got playing his position.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

Vince cannot stretch the defense like Houston can simply because he doesnt command that much respect. Not because he's a bad three point shooter but simply because people arent afraid of him behind the three point line. Maybe they should be afraid maybe they shouldnt. Fact of the matter is their not. Carter is not a better shooter than Marbury or Crawford. He cant shoot the midrange jumper like Kurt Thomas either. Vince might be a ever so slightly better defender but not to the point where there's a real difference. Their both average defenders. You say, "He's quicker, faster, a better passer, younger, more athletic, better defender, better rebounder, actually able to penetrate". I dont know if you say the Knicks-Nuggets game but Houston showed some nifty ball handling and passing skills. It certainly wasnt the best but it certainly wasnt bad either. He's(Carter) not enough of a better defender to matter enough to mention. Again I say he(Carter) isnt playing like he's younger now is he? Vince plays forward he had better be a better rebounder. Have you seen the man(Carter) play lately?? I'd rather have Houston's world class jumpshot and the contract that comes along with it that will help propel the Knicks in the playoffs than Vince's silly fadeaway jumpers that causes Toronto to lose and the contract that comes with it.

About that stuff with Houston making teams pay for doubling off of him... Teams will NOT double off of him. They'd rather let Marbury or Crawford wreak havoc in the paint than give Houson an open look from three point range. That's the kind of respect Houston demands. So the question your asking is which playoff team will not be able to contain our players in a man on man defense right?(I'm not confusing you am I?) Let me see. We're talking about teams in the East right? The Wizards had problems with Marbury didnt they? Richard Hamilton isnt exactly a good on ball defender either. You think there's two perimeter players on the Heat that can defend Marbury and Crawford when their both on the floor? As for that "Sweetney garbage" if Sweetney has an advantage Lenny is going to keep him in the game and keep on going to him until the opposing team finds a solution. They wont be able to double up because Houston is on the floor. Whereas the opposition will have no qualms about doubling up on Sweetney if Carter was on the floor as opposed to Houston. Right or wrong? Even though Houston can beat the zone, stretch the defense, allow players who can beat their man to score points all without touching the ball he can also take his man one on one. You seem to underestimate his ball handling. You keep bringing up the fact Houston isnt very quick or athletic yet he's able to create his own shot off the dribble. He's one of the few upper echelon shooters who can create their own shot(Ray Allen is another one).

Now can Carter do all of the things Houston can? There's more to basketball than the stat sheet. Carter cant do these things. We already have Marbury and Crawford who can both pass and penetrate. We can go back and forth about who's better. But that's besides the point. It's not about which player is better its about which player makes their team better. Because basketball is still a team game. If you can tell me how the Knicks will make a line up of Marbury, Crawford and Carter work, please enlighten me. Houston is more valuble to the Knicks than Carter is. Houston is simply more useful. Houston can change the face of the game and not do anything but stay on the court. He makes everyone else's chances of scoring that much more likely. That's the truth. Then there's his experience. He's been to the Finals, Eastern Conference Finals and played in alot of big games. That kind of experience is valuable to a team looking to make a strong run into the playoffs. Especially when alot of players on that team has never made it into the second round. Then there's the fact he's a great mentor to a young developing player like Crawford. The most Vince can teach Carter is how to cry and whine to get what you want. That is the truth. Yes Vince is more athletic and all of that but he's going to have to bring more to the table if he wants to take part in the poker game. By the way about TT, yes Vince is better than him but we'd rather just take his contract off the books or trade him for somebody else next season. He's nothing more than a role player now. With Houston back we dont need him to make important contributions anymore. That is why I wouldnt give up TT. Vince Carter simply has nothing to offer New York.

 

[Beat]

But I think that you dont realize Carter is playing badly because he no longer wants to be in Toronto

 

[Mr. J]

I understand that but, wouldn't you want to attract other teams with some stellar play? If I wanted VC in the summer, I defnitely don't want him now with those stats and that attitude. Let's say we have a bad season (hopefully not) but, if we do would we want this supposed "valuable acquistion" to whine and want to go to another team? Also I think Houston is now here to stay with Carter we just don't know when he si going to be injuried. Good job with the enlighenment Tribute!

 

[Mr. J]

This is definitely out of the question:

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AFTER watching him in a Knick uniform for two months, many fans are smitten with Jamal Crawford, his breezy personality, exciting crossover dribble and dipsy-doodle moves reminiscent of Earl "The Pearl" Monroe.

But Jamal Crawford is no Vince Carter.

And that's why, when Crawford's contract becomes eligible to be traded tomorrow, Knick President Isiah Thomas should think hard about building a package around the Knick combo guard. </div>

NY Post
Toronto Sun

Jamal for Vince? No! Crawford is a potential all-star and is playing better than Vince Carter. You know this cat is nice when he dropped 50 points. Not many players in the league have done that. This is definitely a laugher

. Isiah Thomas worked real hard in getting this guy in the summer it will be rediculous if this guy gets traded for a falling star. Isiah Thomas will be a grade-A Clown if this ever goes down.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Jamal for Vince? No! Crawford is a potential all-star and is playing better than Vince Carter. You know this cat is nice when he dropped 50 points. Not many players in the league have done that. This is definitely a laugher

. Isiah Thomas worked real hard in getting this guy in the summer it will be rediculous if this guy gets traded for a falling star. Isiah Thomas will be a grade-A Clown if this ever goes down.</div>

Vince is 27, there are 3 reasons why his stats are low.
1. This is a career low in minutes.
2. When Vince is on the floor plays don't really run through him.
3. Vince is playing like an asshole, takings stupid shots, and not trying.

First of all, at this point in time I think Vince is a maturer and has more basketball sense than crawford, and I think Vince is more athletic and is in his prime. He is 27, with 3 more years so until 30.

I calculated Carters stats in 37 min
Crawford in 37 min: 19.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .4 bpg, 2.62 TO pg
Carter in 37 min : 19.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .9 bpg, 1.35 TO pg

So basically a Raptors game where Carter doesn't care and plays don't run for him, yet he matches Crawford in every statistic except Turnovers.

Seriously, Carters a guy that looks up to thomas, and when Carter respects some1 he does his shit. With our rookie coach & gm carter doesn't care. If Carter tries on your NYK team, he will have better scoring numbers, better assist numbers, better rebounding numbers, and less turnovers, with a better FG% than crawford.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">This is definitely out of the question:



NY Post
Toronto Sun

Jamal for Vince? No! Crawford is a potential all-star and is playing better than Vince Carter. You know this cat is nice when he dropped 50 points. Not many players in the league have done that. This is definitely a laugher

. Isiah Thomas worked real hard in getting this guy in the summer it will be rediculous if this guy gets traded for a falling star. Isiah Thomas will be a grade-A Clown if this ever goes down.</div>

You're not serious. You know there is a player named Vince Carter who dropped 50+ points a couple of times and is a 5 time All-Star.

It's obvious Crawford is not going to be traded, but to say he's better than Carter is foolish. Carter hasn't had one season better than Carter's yet. This year might be the year, but individually and in the right system, Vince is the better player. Plus Vince is averaging a career low in minutes, not because he's playing bad, but because the team is more spread out than the previous 9 years, and it has a good balanced offense. This doesn't allow Carter to get much into a rhythm.

Crawford is a potential All-Star yes, but he is not better than Vince Carter. Put Carter in Crawfords situation, and he'd be tearing it up. Carter has been slowed down in Toronto because the offense is much more spread out. Remember when Cartered played under Lenny Wilkens? In his first year he averaged 27.6 PPG and 25 and 20 (Injury Prone season, would have been higher)). Earlier this year when the Raps faced the Knicks, the few times Carter got the ball, he was tearing it up against JC and whoever. Carter is also a good defender, despite what the media says and what you hear.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I calculated Carters stats in 37 min
Crawford in 37 min: 19.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .4 bpg, 2.62 TO pg
Carter in 37 min : 19.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .9 bpg, 1.35 TO pg

So basically a Raptors game where Carter doesn't care and plays don't run for him, yet he matches Crawford in every statistic except Turnovers.

Seriously, Carters a guy that looks up to thomas, and when Carter respects some1 he does his shit. With our rookie coach & gm carter doesn't care. If Carter tries on your NYK team, he will have better scoring numbers, better assist numbers, better rebounding numbers, and less turnovers, with a better FG% than crawford.</div>

Good Stats found, but even with 37 minutes played, Carters averages would be higher than those projected ones.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Vince cannot stretch the defense like Houston can simply because he doesnt command that much respect. Not because he's a bad three point shooter but simply because people arent afraid of him behind the three point line. Maybe they should be afraid maybe they shouldnt. Fact of the matter is their not. Carter is not a better shooter than Marbury or Crawford. He cant shoot the midrange jumper like Kurt Thomas either. Vince might be a ever so slightly better defender but not to the point where there's a real difference. Their both average defenders. You say, "He's quicker, faster, a better passer, younger, more athletic, better defender, better rebounder, actually able to penetrate". I dont know if you say the Knicks-Nuggets game but Houston showed some nifty ball handling and passing skills. It certainly wasnt the best but it certainly wasnt bad either. He's(Carter) not enough of a better defender to matter enough to mention. Again I say he(Carter) isnt playing like he's younger now is he? Vince plays forward he had better be a better rebounder. Have you seen the man(Carter) play lately?? I'd rather have Houston's world class jumpshot and the contract that comes along with it that will help propel the Knicks in the playoffs than Vince's silly fadeaway jumpers that causes Toronto to lose and the contract that comes with it.</div>

Do you know who Vince Carter is? He's a jump shooter that will only drive when you run plays for him inside and/or has a defender up in his grill. Of course he's not the shooter like Allan Houston, only a few are, but it's a ridiclious comparasion. Have you noticed that Allan Houston is untradable? Not because he's a superstar, it's because he's only a jump shooter, with bad knees and a bad contract. Vince Carter is much more than that.

Carter does have a pretty good jumpshot. Crawford is a streaky shooter, but Carter is more pure at shooting. That's where he gets the majority of points from throughout the past couple of years...jumpshots.

How do you know he can't shoot the mid-range shot? Do you even watch Raptors game. Almost all of his jumpers are from mid range and out. He's especially good at the mid-range turn around shot.

I actually don't think you know who Vince Carter is. Do you know about Vince Carters defense? Forget what you heard, it's what you see. And Vince plays good defense. How many people have shutdown players like Dwyane Wade in the closing seconds of game? Not many. Vince can do that, as he has proven through out the past few years against the likes of Wade, Allen, Nowtizki and more. Can Allan Houston shut down a defender in dimes seconds in the game, or let alone guard a defender good? From what I seen, he can't.

You're also underating VC's passing skills. He's a very good passer. He attracts double/triple teams, and he finds the open defender with 2 or 3 men all over him.

The only player I think is a better player than Vince Carter on the Knicks is Marbury...after him it's Crawford and a bunch of former franchise players.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I calculated Carters stats in 37 min
Crawford in 37 min: 19.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .4 bpg, 2.62 TO pg
Carter in 37 min : 19.6 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .9 bpg, 1.35 TO pg

So basically a Raptors game where Carter doesn't care and plays don't run for him, yet he matches Crawford in every statistic except Turnovers.</div>
I could care less if Carter can score. We already have enough scorers. Though Carter is still 27, there is no question he is declining. At this stage, Crawford has a better upside then him. Crawford is 3 years younger than Carter and their stats are almost identical. Also Carter's is severely injury prone which is a big no for me. He is injuried as we speak! The Knicks are looking to make a strong playoff push (especially with Indiana gone) what we need is gauranteed scoring. Crawford will give us this and Vince wont. Also the Knicks have some young guys like Ariza, and Sweetney who shouldn't be exposed to Vince's whining.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Seriously, Carters a guy that looks up to thomas, and when Carter respects some1 he does his shit. With our rookie coach & gm carter doesn't care. If Carter tries on your NYK team, he will have better scoring numbers, better assist numbers, better rebounding numbers, and less turnovers, with a better FG% than crawford.</div>
Let's hypothetically say Isiah Thomas got fired, or if the Knicks had a bad season, will Carter want to leave? Carter can't always get what he wants. Also I heard Carter and Wilkens have a little bit of problems. Will he not do his thing is he has problems with Wilkens?

Finally trading Jamal Crawford, the player we have been working so hard to get, will only disrupt our chemistry. If they are almost identical in stats even trade them if it's going to make not much of a difference? Isiah already did this with the KVH/TT deal and it proved very costly so I am sure he has learned from his mistake. Atleast I hope he has.

 

[02civic]

^glad to see some people still have their logic systems in tact. Vince would be 25-6-5 on the Knicks.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I could care less if Carter can score. We already have enough scorers. Though Carter is still 27, there is no question he is declining. At this stage, Crawford has a better upside then him. Crawford is 3 years younger than Carter and their stats are almost identical. Also Carter's is severely injury prone which is a big no for me. He is injuried as we speak! The Knicks are looking to make a strong playoff push (especially with Indiana gone) what we need is gauranteed scoring. Crawford will give us this and Vince wont. Also the Knicks have some young guys like Ariza, and Sweetney who shouldn't be exposed to Vince's whining. </div>

How could you care less if Vince can score? All Jamal Crawford can do is score. Vince can do much more than score.

Stats are almost indentical...but do you see Vince play basketball? He'll rip it up if you give him the ball and tell him to score. He'll rip it if you tell him to do anything. Give him the ok sign, and he'll do it no problem. The problem is though, he hardly gets the ok sign nowdays.

Also, what is guranteed scoring suppose to mean? Vince Can give you gurantee scoring if you actually play him and run plays for him. I'm not saying that the Knicks Vince, but hypothetically, Vince can give you guranteed scoring when you need it, as he has proven time after time.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's hypothetically say Isiah Thomas got fired, or if the Knicks had a bad season, will Carter want to leave? Carter can't always get what he wants. Also I heard Carter and Wilkens have a little bit of problems. Will he not do his thing is he has problems with Wilkens?</div>

When has Carter asked for something to be done before this year? Like get someone fired, or leave? 6 Years in the league, 4 coaches, 1 team, 2 straight missed playoffs... I'd be pretty ticked off too, and many would ask for a trade as well. Imagine having 3 coaches and 3 years, and going through the same thing all over again, building to win, breaking it down and repeating. You can't say you'll be happy.

Carter wouldn't be a good fit in NY, but saying that he can't always get what he wants is uncalled for and not relevant.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">You're not serious. You know there is a player named Vince Carter who dropped 50+ points a couple of times and is a 5 time All-Star.</div>

I never said Carter didn't drop 50 points. I never negleted any of his achievements. I don't know how many times Carter had 50 points or how old he was, all I know is when Jamal Crawford was barely 24 he dropped 50 on the Raptors. Carter was a phenominal player back in his younger days but, he isn't that type of player now.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's obvious Crawford is not going to be traded, but to say he's better than Carter is foolish. Carter hasn't had one season better than Carter's yet. This year might be the year, but individually and in the right system, Vince is the better player. Plus Vince is averaging a career low in minutes, not because he's playing bad, but because the team is more spread out than the previous 9 years, and it has a good balanced offense. This doesn't allow Carter to get much into a rhythm.</div>

First of all, I never said Crawford was better than Carter. Please tell me where in my post do you see that? I said that at this stage, Crawford is playing better basketball than Vince. Whether Carter doesn't get his minutes, or whatever is going on, the fact of the matter is he is declining plain and simple. Vince used to be a superstar but, he isn't anymore. Crawford is not a superstar yet but, he still has much more to play in his career and can become one.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Crawford is a potential All-Star yes, but he is not better than Vince Carter. Put Carter in Crawfords situation, and he'd be tearing it up. Carter has been slowed down in Toronto because the offense is much more spread out. Remember when Cartered played under Lenny Wilkens? In his first year he averaged 27.6 PPG and 25 and 20 (Injury Prone season, would have been higher)). Earlier this year when the Raps faced the Knicks, the few times Carter got the ball, he was tearing it up against JC and whoever. Carter is also a good defender, despite what the media says and what you hear.</div>

Those stats are mostly useless because they are when Vince was in his prime and was a superstar. He isn't that now so why put it up? Carter might have been "tearing it up" against the Knicks but, he hasn't been "tearing it up" against other teams so, does that mean he can only "tear it up" against certain teams? He might have been "tearing it up" against Jamal in the first game, however, the second game it appears that Jamal tore him up with 30 on him.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you know who Vince Carter is? He's a jump shooter that will only drive when you run plays for him inside and/or has a defender up in his grill. Of course he's not the shooter like Allan Houston, only a few are, but it's a ridiclious comparasion. Have you noticed that Allan Houston is untradable? Not because he's a superstar, it's because he's only a jump shooter, with bad knees and a bad contract. Vince Carter is much more than that.


Carter does have a pretty good jumpshot. Crawford is a streaky shooter, but Carter is more pure at shooting. That's where he gets the majority of points from throughout the past couple of years...jumpshots.

How do you know he can't shoot the mid-range shot? Do you even watch Raptors game. Almost all of his jumpers are from mid range and out. He's especially good at the mid-range turn around shot. </div>
Well, take it as you want to. You said he is not playing bad and yet he shoots 41% from the field. For someone who shoots as well as you say he is I would expect him to be shooting higher.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're also underating VC's passing skills. He's a very good passer. He attracts double/triple teams, and he finds the open defender with 2 or 3 men all over him. </div>
Carter does not have an edge over Crawford in passing. If anything Crawford is better as he used to PG. Crawford can do just as good as Carter if not better. I don't see his passing skills as being a major way why I would take him over Crawford.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The only player I think is a better player than Vince Carter on the Knicks is Marbury...after him it's Crawford and a bunch of former franchise players.</div>
Even if that were true, the fact of the matter is that Carter is not a good fit for this team, and will only disrupt chemistry for us.

 

[MaxaMillion711]

"The problem is though, he hardly gets the ok sign nowdays."


it is cause he is on a really messed up team with all these crazy personalities. He would jumpstart his slow season in New York.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How could you care less if Vince can score? All Jamal Crawford can do is score. Vince can do much more than score.</div>
Crawford can score, he can pass, he can penetrate, he can shoot (when he takes the proper shots) and many other things I'm leaving out.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats are almost indentical...but do you see Vince play basketball? He'll rip it up if you give him the ball and tell him to score. He'll rip it if you tell him to do anything. Give him the ok sign, and he'll do it no problem. The problem is though, he hardly gets the ok sign nowdays.

Also, what is guranteed scoring suppose to mean? Vince Can give you gurantee scoring if you actually play him and run plays for him. I'm not saying that the Knicks Vince, but hypothetically, Vince can give you guranteed scoring when you need it, as he has proven time after time.</div>
I should have clarified this...sorry. By gauranteed scoring I meant that because Vince is always getting injured, we might need him, but, he will be on the injuried list. As opposed to Crawford who isn't injury prone who is almost gaurunteed to give us the scoring we need.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When has Carter asked for something to be done before this year? Like get someone fired, or leave? 6 Years in the league, 4 coaches, 1 team, 2 straight missed playoffs... I'd be pretty ticked off too, and many would ask for a trade as well. Imagine having 3 coaches and 3 years, and going through the same thing all over again, building to win, breaking it down and repeating. You can't say you'll be happy.

Carter wouldn't be a good fit in NY, but saying that he can't always get what he wants is uncalled for and not relevant.</div>
The Knicks have had a tough time too you know. The things with Layden, and missing the playoffs were very frusturating. Still, Carter can be frusturated but, to say I want to leave the team in which he missed 78 games at the time, is also his fault too.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Carter didn't drop 50 points. I never negleted any of his achievements. I don't know how many times Carter had 50 points or how old he was, all I know is when Jamal Crawford was barely 24 he dropped 50 on the Raptors. Carter was a phenominal player back in his younger days but, he isn't that type of player now.</div>

Carter was 23 and 24 when he dropped 50...Bring up the fact the Crawford scored 50 points is pointless. Carter could drop 50 points if he gets as many touches, but it doesn't matter...after all, Tony Delk out of all people scored 50 points.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, I never said Crawford was better than Carter. Please tell me where in my post do you see that? I said that at this stage, Crawford is playing better basketball than Vince. Whether Carter doesn't get his minutes, or whatever is going on, the fact of the matter is he is declining plain and simple. Vince used to be a superstar but, he isn't anymore. Crawford is not a superstar yet but, he still has much more to play in his career and can become one. </div>

I read the comment wrong you said Crawford is playing better than Carter. Sorry for the mishap.

I don't see Carter on the decline. If you put him in the right place where he gets enough touches like he did in previous years, he'll florish like he did in his first few seasons. Last year wasn't a bad season for Carter. He only missed 3 games due to true injury, and he phenominal, especially after The All-Star break, where the team gelled, but missed the playoffs because of various injuries. Still Vince Carter showed no signs of decline last year, as he light up teams for 30+, 40+ points on a team that was a defense first team. He played good defense and was passing the ball very well. His achillies might be the only thing slowing him down, however, skills wise, everything is right there, and he'll perform when you give him the ball.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Those stats are mostly useless because they are when Vince was in his prime and was a superstar. He isn't that now so why put it up? Carter might have been "tearing it up" against the Knicks but, he hasn't been "tearing it up" against other teams so, does that mean he can only "tear it up" against certain teams? He might have been "tearing it up" against Jamal in the first game, however, the second game it appears that Jamal tore him up with 30 on him.</div>

Prime? Do you even know when a player is in his prime? It's before he hits the decline. Reggie Miller hit his prime a couple a years ago. Houston did last year. But VC isn't at his prime yet. He still is one of the elite players in the league. Vince was never a superstar, there are very few superstars in the league, he was an elite player in the league, but not a superstar. He's still a star, but he has to show a little more, but it doesn't look like he's going to show much under Sams equal play and play good you play, play bad you sit, system.

Vince Can rip anyone up. Crawford didn't tear Carter up because VC only had him for a few possesions. Point is, Vince can put up 40 points any given night if you give him the ball, and tell him to score 40, and at the same time win the game for you. If you have watched any more than 2 raptor games this season, you can see that Vince has not gotten consistant minutes. Recently before his achilles injury, he played very good despite the poor play of his teammates...and that's when he got consistant minutes.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, take it as you want to. You said he is not playing bad and yet he shoots 41% from the field. For someone who shoots as well as you say he is I would expect him to be shooting higher.</div>

I can tell you don't know a thing about Vince Carter. If you have watched atleast a few games over the past few years, you can see that Vince is very good shooter. The problem is he doesn't take high percentage shots. If you run an Iso for him, he'll drop a few on you. Give him a high percentage play for him to run in, and I gurantee you he'll be averaging more than 41% from the field. Numbers aren't everything. After all Kobe is just shooting 40%, but he also is a very good shooter. The difference between Kobe and Carter is that he attacks the basket more, and he gets 20 more plays for him than Carter in a game.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter does not have an edge over Crawford in passing. If anything Crawford is better as he used to PG. Crawford can do just as good as Carter if not better. I don't see his passing skills as being a major way why I would take him over Crawford.</div>


I wasn't comparing Vince Carters passing skills to Crawfords, I was comparing it to Allan Houstons passing skills, as I was reffering to the post that I quoted.

Jamal Crawford use to be a PG, but there is a reason he got moved to the Shooting Guard...It's because he is a Shooting Guard. Their are only like 5-8 Real Starting Points in this league. Carter can get better shots for his teammates than Crawford, on top of himself, and that's what matters most in terms of passing.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if that were true, the fact of the matter is that Carter is not a good fit for this team, and will only disrupt chemistry for us.</div>

I could care less about the Knicks chemistry, they have no chemistry because Isiah is up there making trades every 5 minutes.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">^glad to see some people still have their logic systems in tact. Vince would be 25-6-5 on the Knicks.</div>
Why would you say this? If Carter came to NY he would have many options to choose from. Houston or Crawford, Hardaway, JYD, TT who all play his position. You say we are underrating him but, do you think you are overrating Carter, or perhaps underrating the Knicks?