Lesbian couple refused wedding cake files state discrimination complaint

[maxiep]

No. At best, you're unaware of the law.

I don't really care about whatever PC law is out there. I care about freedom. And sometimes freedom means that we defend things we find despicable.

As for your position that the law is infallible, remember that laws were used to support Jim Crow. Are you saying no law should ever be challenged?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Equal treatment comes from changing minds, not changing laws.

I believe in freedom. I believe you should be free to have a civil union with your partner. I believe if a church wishes to consecrate that union, you should be free to marry your partner. I also believe that if a church believes your union to be a sin, they should have the right to deny your marriage in that church.

Likewise, I believe businesses should be free to sell to whomever they please, and deny service to whomever they please. I also have a right to not purchase items from a business that discriminates. Over time, these things become self-selecting as people vote with their wallets every day. Those businesses that discriminate will likely find themselves soon out of business.

I don't think I'd shop at this bakery; in fact, if I knew what they had done, I know I wouldn't. However, I will defend their right to serve whomever they wish.

Well said. It's essentially what I've said throughout this thread. Repped.

Are we gaining freedom or losing freedom? This couple is having something they don't agree with forced down their throats. So congrats to the LGBT community for their increased "rights" at the expense of others' individual rights.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I'm curious what people's take on "the law" and what's right and wrong. I hear several people saying "the law is the law".

Cool story. But when the law isn't in your favor, are you going to follow it and go along with it? Following the law doesn't make it right. That's a lame-ass excuse to fall in line.

There are (or at least were recently) multiple states that banned gay sex. That is/was the law. Does that make the ban right because it's the law? Eric, if that's a law in a state you're visiting, are you going to honor it?

 

[KingSpeed]

So what I'm getting from you is that it's still okay to have whites only businesses. Every business has the right to not serve blacks. That is crazy.

 

[KingSpeed]

Equal treatment comes from changing minds, not changing laws.

I believe in freedom. I believe you should be free to have a civil union with your partner. I believe if a church wishes to consecrate that union, you should be free to marry your partner. I also believe that if a church believes your union to be a sin, they should have the right to deny your marriage in that church.

Likewise, I believe businesses should be free to sell to whomever they please, and deny service to whomever they please. I also have a right to not purchase items from a business that discriminates. Over time, these things become self-selecting as people vote with their wallets every day. Those businesses that discriminate will likely find themselves soon out of business.

I don't think I'd shop at this bakery; in fact, if I knew what they had done, I know I wouldn't. However, I will defend their right to serve whomever they wish.

I'm married. You believe that should be taken away from me. Yet you claim to believe in freedom.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It is hard for me to understand living in a society that allows businesses to refuse to serve you based on the color of your skin. I am glad there are laws in place to regulate this as not only do I believe many business would feel minimal financially impact by being racist (might even get business), I think it also would set this country back 100 plus years.

 

[Further]

I think these issues are fascinating. Two very different views can be held and both can come from a moral and just person, but it's where they place the emphasis of freedom. Freedom to live in the public sector without being discriminated against, or freedom to live in the public sector as do as you wish according to ones own beliefs. I tend to side with laws that make things fair in society, so freedom to not face discrimination, but I understand both sides well.

A couple days ago I was talking with a gay friend about a bunch of us old high school buddies renting a house for a weeks vacation at some point. We were listing off areas, the coast, black butte, etc, when I brought up coeur d'alene. My friend quickly said no, saying that the couple times he went to Idaho he felt discriminated against and unsafe. I mentioned that coeur d'alene is not the same as some back country areas, but regardless he said no. I bring this up because I'm glad that in Oregon, and especially in Portland, people of most ethnicities, religions and sexual orientations feel comfortable and feel that there is not a large amount of discrimination. There is some, and we need to continue to work on lessening that, but there is no reason to regress and alter laws to make discrimination more acceptable. I like that the bakery had to either stop discriminating or close. But I do understand the alternate view.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I'm married. You believe that should be taken away from me. Yet you claim to believe in freedom.

You claim to believe in freedom. Yet you don't think the owners of a bakery should get to have their own beliefes and refuse to bake a wedding cake? They never refused to serve any gay couples, BTW. They never refused to bake a cake. They only refused to baker a WEDDING cake. Big distinction for those of you that continue to argue against the bakery.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I think these issues are fascinating. Two very different views can be held and both can come from a moral and just person, but it's where they place the emphasis of freedom. Freedom to live in the public sector without being discriminated against, or freedom to live in the public sector as do as you wish according to ones own beliefs. I tend to side with laws that make things fair in society, so freedom to not face discrimination, but I understand both sides well.

A couple days ago I was talking with a gay friend about a bunch of us old high school buddies renting a house for a weeks vacation at some point. We were listing off areas, the coast, black butte, etc, when I brought up coeur d'alene. My friend quickly said no, saying that the couple times he went to Idaho he felt discriminated against and unsafe. I mentioned that coeur d'alene is not the same as some back country areas, but regardless he said no. I bring this up because I'm glad that in Oregon, and especially in Portland, people of most ethnicities, religions and sexual orientations feel comfortable and feel that there is not a large amount of discrimination. There is some, and we need to continue to work on lessening that, but there is no reason to regress and alter laws to make discrimination more acceptable. I like that the bakery had to either stop discriminating or close. But I do understand the alternate view.

You are right that different groups of rationale people, after analyzing a topic and both wanting the best for society come out with two very different solutions for topics like this.

I appreciate that aspect Portland, Oregon too. Portland isn't for everybody (see MM) and there are plenty of places to live where you can avoid what I view as ultra liberal society, but if you want a unique living environment, that is also generally accepting of alternative lifestyles, Portland has that. You take the good with the bad, and in my opinion Portland goes overboard sometimes (the way they handled the protest downtown), but overall I enjoy living somewhere that in my mind is more progressive.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

We actually had a huge, drawn-out conversation with my wife's gay cousin over the weekend. I found it interesting that he felt that so long as the bakery doesn't refuse him service, he would understand if the bakery refused to provide him with a wedding cake. If the bakery had an issue with his gay wedding, he'd ask them to provide him a basic cake and he'd take it elsewhere or he'd go to a different bakery altogether. His biggest point was that he didn't believe that everyone should or will have the same viewpoints and that such things make the world boring and drone-like, and it's unreasonable to expect everyone to share the same view and then to force a view upon people that don't share it, especially when religion is genuinely involved. He was more tolerant of the bakery than I was (I'm not tolerant of the bakery - I think they're ignorant backwoods rednecks, but they shouldn't have the government coming in and encroaching on their religious beliefs).

Even further into the discussion, he mentions that he's heard in the gay community and in the news there's been talk of actively seeking businesses such as this bakery and "rooting" them out. Now, that seems crazy and excessive. Talk about a witch hunt.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

You are right that different groups of rationale people, after analyzing a topic and both wanting the best for society come out with two very different solutions for topics like this.

I appreciate that aspect Portland, Oregon too. Portland isn't for everybody (see MM) and there are plenty of places to live where you can avoid what I view as ultra liberal society, but if you want a unique living environment, that is also generally accepting of alternative lifestyles, Portland has that. You take the good with the bad, and in my opinion Portland goes overboard sometimes (the way they handled the protest downtown), but overall I enjoy living somewhere that in my mind is more progressive.

I agree with this, and it's part of the reason I love Portland and have never had any desire to leave the metro area. But what I also find ironic is that trendy-grungy and hipster crowds in Portland aren't super accepting of those outside of it. The treatment I see and receive depending on how I'm dressed on any given day downtown or inner-East side can vary extremely significantly.

 

[magnifier661]

Should KP get involved and announce that they should let the cake bake?

 

[Mediocre Man]

I wonder if there would have been any backlash had the bakery said we'll do it, but we would prefer you go elsewhere because we don't believe in gay marriage. In the nicest way possible

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I wonder if there would have been any backlash had the bakery said we'll do it, but we would prefer you go elsewhere because we don't believe in gay marriage. In the nicest way possible

I'm sure there would have been. We tend to crucify those that see differently than us, and to the fullest extent. It appears to be part of human nature.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm sure there would have been. We tend to crucify those that see differently than us, and to the fullest extent. It appears to be part of human nature.

That's why the baker should have just shot them in the face.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

That's why the baker should have just shot them in the face.

That would not have been very cool.

I'm pretty sure that would have turned out worse because it would have been a violent hate crime, instead of just choosing to violate Oregon law because on one's religious belief.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

So being shot in the face somehow makes my mind go into another thought on this topic (yes I am twisted)

What if a doctor refuses to treat you because you are gay? Because you are Black? By the time the financial impact hits their business (which it probably wouldn't) the person is dead . . .
OK maybe not, but you get the idea with the hypothetically being a life threatening injury vs a wedding cake.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

That would not have been very cool.

I'm pretty sure that would have turned out worse because it would have been a violent hate crime, instead of just choosing to violate Oregon law because on one's religious belief.

OK nice that you are concerned for the bakery owner but that situation would have been much worse for the gay couple than anyone else . . . no matter what the laws are.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

So being shot in the face somehow makes my mind go into another thought on this topic (yes I am twisted)

What if a doctor refuses to treat you because you are gay? Because you are Black? By the time the financial impact hits their business (which it probably wouldn't) the person is dead . . .
OK maybe not, but you get the idea with the hypothetically being a life threatening injury vs a wedding cake.

What if a doctor refuses to treat you because you're sick and he's afraid of your illness?

Speaking of which, ToB, you get your chlamydia under control yet?

(I kid, I kid. )

 

[MarAzul]

It's not any different. At all.



They're not being asked to marry the couple. They're not being asked to engage in homosexual acts. They're being asked to make a cake. That is all.

Oh! I wager they would make a cake and be pleased to have the business.

However, make a Wedding Cake pushed them farther than they could go.

 

[maxiep]

I'm married. You believe that should be taken away from me. Yet you claim to believe in freedom.

I believe anyone who is "married" under the aegis of the government should have that designation taken from them, including me. They should have a civil union.

I think I believe in freedom much more than do you. You seem to want everyone to be free to think what they wish...as long as it's exactly what you think.

 

[maxiep]

So what I'm getting from you is that it's still okay to have whites only businesses. Every business has the right to not serve blacks. That is crazy.

It's freedom. I also have the freedom to boycott any business that doesn't serve blacks.

Freedom is awesome and terrible both at the same time. Yet I far prefer it over someone dictating me what to think and do.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm married. You believe that should be taken away from me. Yet you claim to believe in freedom.

Score!

 

[maxiep]

It is hard for me to understand living in a society that allows businesses to refuse to serve you based on the color of your skin. I am glad there are laws in place to regulate this as not only do I believe many business would feel minimal financially impact by being racist (might even get business), I think it also would set this country back 100 plus years.

My thought is that any business that discriminated on the basis of skin color would be ridden out of business on a rail...which is how it should be.

I actually think allowing business to sell to whom they please would actually advance this country as their bigotry would be put in plain view for all to see. Right now people pretend they're not racist, but their dark thoughts are hidden between their ears. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

 

[MarAzul]

I believe anyone who is "married" under the aegis of the government should have that designation taken from them, including me. They should have a civil union.

I think I believe in freedom much more than do you. You seem to want everyone to be free to think what they wish...as long as it's exactly what you think.

Hey! That might be spot on!

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

OK nice that you are concerned for the bakery owner but that situation would have been much worse for the gay couple than anyone else . . . no matter what the laws are.

Well done, sir. I was waiting for someone to catch that. It was obviously a whole lotts sarcasm, but it brings this all to a point: the bakery owners are the ones that ended up injured in all of this. The gay couple "learned" there are people out there that don't believe in gay marriage (which, in fact, I'm assuming they already knew this). The gay couple may end up with money out of this. There are plenty of other bakeries that would make them a cake (I'm willing to bet they were given a super-duper cake for free out of this). So they're more than hole.

The couple that own the bakery? Their business is hurt. Their religious beliefs have been trampled, and they've basically been forced to change their beliefs if they want to succeed.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not surprised it ended this way, and the bakery deserved the initial backlash. As I've said, I don't agree with their way of thinking. But I don't agree with the treatment the bakery received and the extended witch hunt was unnecessary and unfair, and in the end, in my eyes, the gay couple looks as bad as the bakery owners. "You won't tolerate us and our beliefs, we won't tolerate you and your beliefs and we'll destroy your livelihood." Yes, that will help the bakers see the light. They're probably going to hate gay people even more now.

 

[maxiep]

That's why the baker should have just shot them in the face.

[video=youtube;MDzSigDvHj0]

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I'm married. You believe that should be taken away from me. Yet you claim to believe in freedom.

You claim to believe in freedom. Yet, you got married, and you had to fight to marry.

Everyone knows you lose your freedom as soon as you get married. So, you essentially fought to give up your freedom. :MARIS61:

 

[PapaG]

It is hard for me to understand living in a society that allows businesses to refuse to serve you based on the color of your skin. I am glad there are laws in place to regulate this as not only do I believe many business would feel minimal financially impact by being racist (might even get business), I think it also would set this country back 100 plus years.

http://www.blackpeoplemeet.com/

 

[maxiep]

You claim to believe in freedom. Yet, you got married, and you had to fight to marry.

Everyone knows you lose your freedom as soon as you get married. So, you essentially fought to give up your freedom. :MARIS61:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BLAZINGGIANTS again.

That was damn funny...and heartbreakingly true.