let's straighten this one out

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magnifier661 said:
Excuses excuses...

Sounds like someone has the case of shoulda coulda woulda
Click to expand...

tell me how you think you would do with

nolan smith
wes matthews
nic batum
hickson
leonard

as a starting lineup and then having by far the worst bench in the league
 
DamesGotTheGame said:
Ricky is a top 5 defensive pg in the league. LILLARD is.....not.
Click to expand...

Somebody needs to go check out the advanced stats at 82games.com.

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Production:
Own: 14.8
Opponent: 15.2
Net: -0.4

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Production:
Own: 17.8
Opponent: 16.8
Net +1.0

So, Rubio the great defender gets outproduced by his opponent and Lillard out produces his opponent. No surprise there, guys who can't shoot have trouble outproducing anyone (see Sergio Rodriguez, you may have heard of him, he USED to play in the NBA).

You say, Rubio isn't about individual stats? OK, let's look team performance:

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
On Court/Off Court:
Offense: +1.7
Defense: -5.3
Net: +7.0

Not bad, at least Rubio makes a positive contribution overall, to the tune of +7.0 points per 100 possessions, when he's on the court.

But, now let's look at rookie Lillard:

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
On Court/Off Court:
Offense: -2.0
Defense: -13.0
Net: +11.0

Lillard makes a bigger positive contribution, +11.0 points per 100 possessions.

Which explains why rookie Lillard's simple rating (+4.3) is over twice as high as rookie Rubio's (+2.1). Lillard has a much higher total positive impact on his team's performance than Rubio.

As far as Rubio being a top five defender at his position, dream on. Everyone here, including Lillard himself, acknowledges that Lillard needs to improve his defense, but he's actually almost as good on defense already as Rubio (and much better on offense):

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Player 48-Minute Production by Position:
Pts: 14.5
Opponent Pts: 19.8
Net: -5.3 points/48 minutes

PER: 14.8
Opponent PER: 16.4
Net: -1.6

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Player 48-Minute Production by Position:
Pts: 23.9
Opponent Pts: 20.4
Net: +3.5 points/48 minutes

PER: 17.3
Opponent PER: 16.0
Net: +1.3

Both players play the same position in the same division of the same conference. They go head-to-head again the same opposing PGs every game. Rubio, the supposed top 5 defender holds his opponent to 0.6 pts/48 less than Lillard, the horrible defender. Yet, Lillard holds his opponents total production (PER = 16.0) to lower than Rubio does (PER = 16.4). So, explain please, how does this make Rubio a top 5 defender?

And, of course, when it comes to offense, Lillard totally trounces Rubio:

Net pts/48 = +9.4 in Lillard's favor
Net PER = +2.5 in Lillard's favor

But, what about when it REALLY counts, when the game is on the line? Let's look at the clutch statistics for these two and then determine who you'd rather have the ball in their hands when the game is on the line:

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: -9
Offense: 101.5
Defense: 106.7
Net/48: -5.2

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: +25
Offense: 110.1
Defense: 87.8
Net/48: +22.4

Which explains why the Blazers are 4-0 in overtime games this season and won another close game on Lillard's last second 3-pointer last night.

And, where is Rubio's supposed great defense when the game is on the line. Lillard steps up under pressure, at both ends. Rubio wilts under pressure.

Rubio is a decent, but not great player. He's very flashy, but flashy doesn't win games. Until he learns how to shoot, teams will be able to sag off him and exploit this weakness, just like they did once they learned Sergio couldn't shoot.

Lillard, is definitely a much better overall player, especially with the game on the line. Ask any GM or coach in the league which player they'd rather build a team round, and I bet 30 out of 30 would pick Lillard - and that includs David Kahn and Rick Adelman. Kahn, because he's infatuated with all things Portland and Adelman because he's a smart coach who'd rather put the ball in Luke Ridenour's hands than Ricky Rubio's with the game on the line, and for good reason:

Luke Ridenour (2011-12):
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: +11
Offense: 112.0
Defense: 106.5
Net/48: +5.5

So, in a direct comparison from last season (we can't do a comparison from this season, as Rubio hasn't played in any close games), Rubio isn't even the best PG on his own team when the game is on the line. He has an overall negative impact, and you can't blame his teammates, because Luke Ridenour, playing with those same teammates has an overall positive impact when the game is on the line.

BNM
 
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:lol: luke is the worst crunchtime player in the world except for his one floater against the jazz :lol:
STATS BRO, STATS
I CANT BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT HAHHAHAHHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LUKE RIDNOUR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
also you only put points, you left out what ricky does better than everyone but 2 people in the league and that is distribute
 
DUDES LETS HAVE A PER/JOHN HOLLINGER CIRCLE JERK
WE DONT EVEN HAVE TO WATCH GAMES
CircleJerk1.jpg
 
Rubio has been overhyped as a defender since his days in Spain. I remember watching him play in the Olympics and wondering how anyone could think this kid is a good defender. He plays the passing lanes and can get steals, but that's about it. He's not a good on-the-ball defender.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Rubio has been overhyped as a defender since his days in Spain. I remember watching him play in the Olympics and wondering how anyone could think this kid is a good defender. He plays the passing lanes and can get steals, but that's about it. He's not a good on-the-ball defender.
Click to expand...
DUDE DAMIAN LILLARD IS THE WORST DEFENDER IN THE LEAGUE
 
Boob-No-More said:
Somebody needs to go check out the advanced stats at 82games.com.

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Production:
Own: 14.8
Opponent: 15.2
Net: -0.4

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Production:
Own: 17.8
Opponent: 16.8
Net +1.0

So, Rubio the great defender gets outproduced by his opponent and Lillard out produces his opponent. No surprise there, guys who can't shoot have trouble outproducing anyone (see Sergio Rodriguez, you may have heard of him, he USED to play in the NBA).

You say, Rubio isn't about individual stats? OK, let's look team performance:

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
On Court/Off Court:
Offense: +1.7
Defense: -5.3
Net: +7.0

Not bad, at least Rubio makes a positive contribution overall, to the tune of +7.0 points per 100 possessions, when he's on the court.

But, now let's look at rookie Lillard:

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
On Court/Off Court:
Offense: -2.0
Defense: -13.0
Net: +11.0

Lillard makes a bigger positive contribution, +11.0 points per 100 possessions.

Which explains why rookie Lillard's simple rating (+4.3) is over twice as high as rookie Rubio's (+2.1). Lillard has a much higher total positive impact on his team's performance than Rubio.

As far as Rubio being a top five defender at his position, dream on. Everyone here, including Lillard himself, acknowledges that Lillard needs to improve his defense, but he's actually almost as good on defense already as Rubio (and much better on offense):

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Player 48-Minute Production by Position:
Pts: 14.5
Opponent Pts: 19.8
Net: -5.3 points/48 minutes

PER: 14.8
Opponent PER: 16.4
Net: -1.6

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Player 48-Minute Production by Position:
Pts: 23.9
Opponent Pts: 20.4
Net: +3.5 points/48 minutes

PER: 17.3
Opponent PER: 16.0
Net: +1.3

Both players play the same position in the same division of the same conference. They go head-to-head again the same opposing PGs every game. Rubio, the supposed top 5 defender holds his opponent to 0.6 pts/48 less than Lillard, the horrible defender. Yet, Lillard holds his opponents total production (PER = 16.0) to lower than Rubio does (PER = 16.4). So, explain please, how does this make Rubio a top 5 defender?

And, of course, when it comes to offense, Lillard totally trounces Rubio:

Net pts/48 = +9.4 in Lillard's favor
Net PER = +2.5 in Lillard's favor

But, what about when it REALLY counts, when the game is on the line? Let's look at the clutch statistics for these two and then determine who you'd rather have the ball in their hands when the game is on the line:

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: -9
Offense: 101.5
Defense: 106.7
Net/48: -5.2

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: +25
Offense: 110.1
Defense: 87.8
Net/48: +22.4

Which explains why the Blazers are 4-0 in overtime games this season and won another close game on Lillard's last second 3-pointer last night.

And, where is Rubio's supposed great defense when the game is on the line. Lillard steps up under pressure, at both ends. Rubio wilts under pressure.

Rubio is a decent, but not great player. He's very flashy, but flashy doesn't win games. Until he learns how to shoot, teams will be able to sag off him and exploit this weakness, just like they did once they learned Sergio couldn't shoot.

Lillard, is definitely a much better overall player, especially with the game on the line. Ask any GM or coach in the league which player they'd rather build a team round, and I bet 30 out of 30 would pick Lillard - and that includs David Kahn and Rick Adelman. Kahn, because he's infatuated with all things Portland and Adelman because he's a smart coach who'd rather put the ball in Luke Ridenour's hands than Ricky Rubio's with the game on the line, and for good reason:

Luke Ridenour (2011-12):
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: +11
Offense: 112.0
Defense: 106.5
Net/48: +5.5

So, in a direct comparison from last season (we can't do a comparison from this season, as Rubio hasn't played in any close games), Rubio isn't even the best PG on his own team when the game is on the line. He has an overall negative impact, and you can't blame his teammates, because Luke Ridenour, playing with those same teammates has an overall positive impact when the game is on the line.

BNM
Click to expand...

This.
 
DamesGotTheGame said:
:lol: luke is the worst crunchtime player in the world except for his one floater against the jazz :lol:
STATS BRO, STATS
I CANT BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT HAHHAHAHHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LUKE RIDNOUR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
also you only put points, you left out what ricky does better than everyone but 2 people in the league and that is distribute
Click to expand...

The stats clearly show Ridenour has a positive impact on his team during crunch time and Rubio has a net negative impact hen the game is on the line. Guys who can't hit a shot to save their lives aren't usually know as great clutch payers.

No, learn to read and what the stats mean. I did NOT just include points. I also included PER which incorporates all stats, including assists. And, I also included team metrics like On Court/Off Court stats to show the net overall impact a player has on his team. If Rubio is such a great distributor, his team should be doing much better when he's on the court. The problem is, he's one dimensional. What he does well (distribute) is somewhat negated by what he does poorly (shoot). Because he can pass AND shoot, Lillard has a MUCH better overall positive impact on his team - especially when the game is on the line. The eye ball test says so, and it's more than backed up by the stats.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
The stats clearly show Ridenour has a positive impact on his team during crunch time and Rubio has a net negative impact hen the game is on the line. Guys who can't hit a shot to save their lives aren't usually know as great clutch payers.

No, learn to read and what the stats mean. I did NOT just include points. I also included PER which incorporates all stats, including assists. And, I also included team metrics like On Court/Off Court stats to show the net overall impact a player has on his team. If Rubio is such a great distributor, his team should be doing much better when he's on the court. The problem is, he's one dimensional. What he does well (distribute) is somewhat negated by what he does poorly (shoot). Because he can pass AND shoot, Lillard has a MUCH better overall positive impact on his team - especially when the game is on the line. The eye ball test says so, and it's more than backed up by the stats.

BNM
Click to expand...

You don't understand BNM. You're punching holes in their savior. They've been waiting for MONTHS for this guy to come back, so making him look bad is just unacceptable.
 
DamesGotTheGame said:
how about i give you a stat
ricky as a starter 18-13
the dame lillard 11-12
Click to expand...

Newsflash: This just in... basketball is a team sport.

By your "logic":

Mario Chalmers is 15-6 as a starter.

Deron Williams is 13-10 as a starter.

Rajon Rondo is 12-11 as a starter.

Therefore, Mario Chalmers >>>> than Deron Williams and Rajon Rondo. Why don't you ask Pat Riley if he'd trade Mario Chalmers straight up for Deron Williams or Rajon Rondo. Let us know what he says, after he's done laughing his ass off at you.

BNM
 
BNM, why do you waste your time putting together a well-articulated, well-supported post full of statistics to communicate with an ignorant homer?

There are two things that pure statistics and facts cannot get through: ignorance and homerism. Put those together... it's a deadly combination on the brain (see: DGTG).
 
Guys does anyone else find humor that this T-Puppy fan is seriously reaching on his arguments?
 
Id hate to be a tpup fan. They act like they won the championship when the team is barely going to make the playoffs.
 
Boob-No-More said:
Somebody needs to go check out the advanced stats at 82games.com.

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Production:
Own: 14.8
Opponent: 15.2
Net: -0.4

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Production:
Own: 17.8
Opponent: 16.8
Net +1.0

So, Rubio the great defender gets outproduced by his opponent and Lillard out produces his opponent. No surprise there, guys who can't shoot have trouble outproducing anyone (see Sergio Rodriguez, you may have heard of him, he USED to play in the NBA).

You say, Rubio isn't about individual stats? OK, let's look team performance:

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
On Court/Off Court:
Offense: +1.7
Defense: -5.3
Net: +7.0

Not bad, at least Rubio makes a positive contribution overall, to the tune of +7.0 points per 100 possessions, when he's on the court.

But, now let's look at rookie Lillard:

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
On Court/Off Court:
Offense: -2.0
Defense: -13.0
Net: +11.0

Lillard makes a bigger positive contribution, +11.0 points per 100 possessions.

Which explains why rookie Lillard's simple rating (+4.3) is over twice as high as rookie Rubio's (+2.1). Lillard has a much higher total positive impact on his team's performance than Rubio.

As far as Rubio being a top five defender at his position, dream on. Everyone here, including Lillard himself, acknowledges that Lillard needs to improve his defense, but he's actually almost as good on defense already as Rubio (and much better on offense):

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Player 48-Minute Production by Position:
Pts: 14.5
Opponent Pts: 19.8
Net: -5.3 points/48 minutes

PER: 14.8
Opponent PER: 16.4
Net: -1.6

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Player 48-Minute Production by Position:
Pts: 23.9
Opponent Pts: 20.4
Net: +3.5 points/48 minutes

PER: 17.3
Opponent PER: 16.0
Net: +1.3

Both players play the same position in the same division of the same conference. They go head-to-head again the same opposing PGs every game. Rubio, the supposed top 5 defender holds his opponent to 0.6 pts/48 less than Lillard, the horrible defender. Yet, Lillard holds his opponents total production (PER = 16.0) to lower than Rubio does (PER = 16.4). So, explain please, how does this make Rubio a top 5 defender?

And, of course, when it comes to offense, Lillard totally trounces Rubio:

Net pts/48 = +9.4 in Lillard's favor
Net PER = +2.5 in Lillard's favor

But, what about when it REALLY counts, when the game is on the line? Let's look at the clutch statistics for these two and then determine who you'd rather have the ball in their hands when the game is on the line:

Ricky Rubio Rookie season (41 games)
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: -9
Offense: 101.5
Defense: 106.7
Net/48: -5.2

Damian Lillard Rookie season (23 games)
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: +25
Offense: 110.1
Defense: 87.8
Net/48: +22.4

Which explains why the Blazers are 4-0 in overtime games this season and won another close game on Lillard's last second 3-pointer last night.

And, where is Rubio's supposed great defense when the game is on the line. Lillard steps up under pressure, at both ends. Rubio wilts under pressure.

Rubio is a decent, but not great player. He's very flashy, but flashy doesn't win games. Until he learns how to shoot, teams will be able to sag off him and exploit this weakness, just like they did once they learned Sergio couldn't shoot.

Lillard, is definitely a much better overall player, especially with the game on the line. Ask any GM or coach in the league which player they'd rather build a team round, and I bet 30 out of 30 would pick Lillard - and that includs David Kahn and Rick Adelman. Kahn, because he's infatuated with all things Portland and Adelman because he's a smart coach who'd rather put the ball in Luke Ridenour's hands than Ricky Rubio's with the game on the line, and for good reason:

Luke Ridenour (2011-12):
Clutch Statistics:
Net Points: +11
Offense: 112.0
Defense: 106.5
Net/48: +5.5

So, in a direct comparison from last season (we can't do a comparison from this season, as Rubio hasn't played in any close games), Rubio isn't even the best PG on his own team when the game is on the line. He has an overall negative impact, and you can't blame his teammates, because Luke Ridenour, playing with those same teammates has an overall positive impact when the game is on the line.

BNM
Click to expand...

So nice, gotta bump it twice.
 
DamesGotTheGame said:
DUDE DAMIAN LILLARD IS THE WORST DEFENDER IN THE LEAGUE
Click to expand...

Go back and check the stats:

Ricky Rubio allows his opponents to score 19.8 pts/48 and Damian Lillard's opponents score 20.4 pts/48. Are you really trying to claim that 0.6 pts/48 is the difference between a top 5 defender at his position and THE WORST DEFENDER IN THE LEAGUE? Surely, you're not that stupid, are you?

And in terms of total opponent production (PER) both Lillard (16.0) and Rubio (16.4) are below league average (15.0), but Rubio is worse. How can anyone possibly be worse than THE WORST DEFENDER IN THE LEAGUE?

You're going to have to do better than this. I'm losing interest fast. I think my work here is done, time to move on to something that matters. Hint: it won't involve the Minnesota Timberwolves. They haven't mattered since they gave Kevin Garnett to the Boston Celtics, and they barely mattered before that.

BNM
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Id hate to be a tpup fan. They act like they won the championship when the team is barely going to make the playoffs.
Click to expand...

Nah, Rubio will get hurt again in a month or two and they'll fall out of the playoff picture.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Id hate to be a tpup fan. They act like they won the championship when the team is barely going to make the playoffs.
Click to expand...

Dude, they're 20+ games into the season. It's too early to talk about the T-Pups and the playoffs. It's one thing to do it with a proven team, but they aren't a proven team, so it's far to early to act like they might make it. I mean, they finished last season with something like a 5-21 record in their last 26 games (Fez, help me out). They could easily crumble apart again.
 
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So we got what, 4, 5 threads that are basically all revolving around the tpup troll? Awesome. Doesn't matter how poor his arguments are, and how stupid he is if the whole forum just talks about his threads. Glad we let him stick around. Such great contributions from an obvious troll.
 
Boob-No-More said:
The stats clearly show Ridenour has a positive impact on his team during crunch time and Rubio has a net negative impact hen the game is on the line. Guys who can't hit a shot to save their lives aren't usually know as great clutch payers.

No, learn to read and what the stats mean. I did NOT just include points. I also included PER which incorporates all stats, including assists. And, I also included team metrics like On Court/Off Court stats to show the net overall impact a player has on his team. If Rubio is such a great distributor, his team should be doing much better when he's on the court. The problem is, he's one dimensional. What he does well (distribute) is somewhat negated by what he does poorly (shoot). Because he can pass AND shoot, Lillard has a MUCH better overall positive impact on his team - especially when the game is on the line. The eye ball test says so, and it's more than backed up by the stats.

BNM
Click to expand...
what I care about and notice, as a person that has watched every single timberwolves game the past 5 years except for 5 games, is that he steps up when he needs to. We dont even get to those clutch situations without ricky, thats all i care about, you can bring up your stats, but the stats don't show the "it" factor ricky has. Ask ANYONE in the media or in the lockerroom and they will tell you he has something special, he makes everyone play at a different level. It doesnt show up on the stat sheet but its there. And it was obvious last night

"It's not just because of his talent level, but who he is," Adelman said. "Our guys have watched him work. They've watched him get ready for this game, and they know what type of player he is. He rubs off. He just rubs off."

To watch Rubio is to come dangerously close to a pulled neck muscle. Twitch to one side, to the other, up, down, desperately seeking Ricky. You never want to let him or the ball out of your sight, worried that to do so would be to miss something. To miss something big, something highlight-worthy, something you might want to share with your parents, your friends, with anyone who will listen, really. With Rubio, time is measured in split seconds, each crucial to reconstructing what you've just seen, where the ball has gone that it shouldn't have and how it got there.

He's not perfect, but he's contagious. He's a bundle of possibilities, as he stands there at the top of the key, dribbling the ball at his unmistakable pace with those long, long arms.

The passes draw you in, but the magic lies in what Rubio creates around him. It spreads. No matter how much you try to focus singularly on Rubio, it's impossible. He's enmeshed with his teammates, and even when he wasn't on the court, his effect lingered. The game was flat before he checked in, fans conspicuously quiet, as if waiting patiently might bring them what they wanted sooner. And when he entered, the place exploded, his teammates transformed, and it never went back.

Derrick Williams became aggressive. Players started sinking threes. Andrei Kirilenko began playing like a star. Alexey Shved gained moxie. (Rick Adelman's words, not mine). Everyone was playing like a better version of himself, a confident, refined, easy kind of basketball that makes you hope halftime never comes.
Click to expand...

http://www.foxsportsnorth.com/12/16/12/Rubio-looks-stellar-in-season-premiere/landing_timberwolves.html?blockID=836129&feedID=10354

And the galvanization that Rubio brings to the team will shine through.

"No words can really describe it," Derrick Williams explained after his best game of the season. "You've just got to feel it. It gets our crowd into it, too. It's just a good feeling."

"It feels great," Andrei Kirilenko said after his first regular-season game playing with Rubio. "This guy has eyes in the back [of his head]. It's always nice to have this kind of point guard. You know if you move good and you're cutting, you're always going to be rewarded.

"I think Ricky's a really pure point guard. Loves to play with the ball and create opportunities for his teammates. It's always a privilege to play with those types of guys, especially if you know how to play without the ball. You know if you get open, you're going to get the ball. And I love it. I love to move."

When Kirilenko was asked if he'd ever previously played with a point guard like that, Andrei reminded everybody of his past teammates before praising Rubio.

"I've played with Mark Jackson, John Stockton, and Deron Williams. I think Ricky is one of those guys who, when he sees the opportunity, he goes there. I learned from the best how to get open and not to get hit on the back [of the head with a pass]."

After the game, Rubio's unselfish point-guard nature wouldn't let him talk about this game in terms of anything but his team. He told reporters about the boost that his team gave him and how great it was to watch them win in overtime. Even when pressed about his flashy pass to Stiemsma, Rubio immediately mentioned how he came up short on two lob attempts to Derrick Williams.

"They gave me a great gift with a [victory] in overtime," Rubio said as he praised his teammates. "I think we're going to do big things with this team."

And those big things start with their young point guard.
Click to expand...

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/21411043/the-return-of-ricky-rubio
 
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