Lets talk................

[Rick2583]

With nothing really happening I just thought I'd give you guys a little history lesson which you may or may not already know.

The 50 HR mark has been reached a total of 43 times by 27 different players. On only 11 of these 43 times did a player win the MVP award. Foxx (32&38), Mantle (56), Maris (61), Mays (65), Foster (77), Griffey (97), Sosa (98), Bonds (01), Howard (06) and Rodriquez in (07).

Amazingly Ruth who reached the 50 HR mark 4 times never won the MVP for any of these seasons. In 1920 & 1921 there was no voting BUT......and here's something I can't figure out, In 1927 in his record setting year he received no votes dispite hitting 60 HRs driving in 164 & hitting 356. His team mate Gehrig won with 47 / 175 / 373. And in 1928 AGAIN! he received no votes dispite hitting 54 / 142 / 323. Mickey Cochrane won it that year 10 / 57 / 293. Cochrane also won the award in 1934 with the following #s 2 / 76 / 320. The 2 BTW: was home runs. Oh & did I mention that same year Gehrig hit 49 / 165 / 363. You figure it out.

Finally of these 27 players 8 are in the HOF, Ruth, Foxx, Greenberg, Mantle, Mays, Wilson, Kiner, and Mize. 6 are still currently playing, Howard, A-Rod, Ortiz, P.Fielder, Bautista & Davis. 2 are awaiting entry Griffey & Thome while 3 others will never get in, McGwire, Sosa & Bonds. The remaining 8 players...Maris, Gonzales, Foster, C.Fielder, Jones, Vaughn, Anderson & Belle just don't have the numbers to warrant election consideration. JMO.

Footnote: though there are 3 players who reached the 50 HR mark 4 times, Ruth, Sosa & McGwire. Only Sosa & Mcgwire reached the mark on 4 consecutive seasons.

 

[blgridesagain]

Amazingly Ruth who reached the 50 HR mark 4 times never won the MVP for any of these seasons. In 1920 & 1921 there was no voting BUT......and here's something I can't figure out, In 1927 in his record setting year he received no votes dispite hitting 60 HRs driving in 164 & hitting 356. His team mate Gehrig won with 47 / 175 / 373. And in 1928 AGAIN! he received no votes dispite hitting 54 / 142 / 323. Mickey Cochrane won it that year 10 / 57 / 293. Cochrane also won the award in 1934 with the following #s 2 / 76 / 320. The 2 BTW: was home runs. Oh & did I mention that same year Gehrig hit 49 / 165 / 363. You figure it out.
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Rick, my guess is there was some some type of collusion amoung the shit-head writers who for some reason held a grudge...same thing applied towards Ted Williams when one or two "sportswriters" didn't vote for him when he won the triple crown.

The current biggest dirtiest little secret regarding today's HOF voting is how these sportswriters are trying to keep their monopoly on the HOF voting.
Maybe 40-50-70-80 years ago they were the only game in town....but with the current technology and access to games and stats, they should NOT be the the sole voice when deciding who should or should not be elected into the HOF.

Another annoying habit these sportswriters/voters have is how they refuse to elect deserving players into the HOF in their first year of eligibility as if they (writers) are playing GOD and insist the player shall wait at least another year or many more, in which he may live to see it.

IF A PLAYER IS A HALL OF FAMER FROM THE MOMENT HE RETIRES....HE SHOULD BE ELECTED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTERWARD..

NY Daily News' writer Bill Madden is one of these typical Asswholes.

I still can't believe he and that other stuttering idiot Peter Gammons are "Hall of Fame writers".


yeesh

 

[Rick2583]

I understand that prior to the 70s your MVPs were generally players whose team went to the world series.. Hell between 1933 & 1968 (36 years) the award was given to a world series participant 28 times. but it still doesn't excuse how in 1927 & 1928 (both Yankee WS teams) how Ruth didn't even get ONE (1) MVP vote in the top 25.

As far as Williams you're right, he wasn't very well liked but as I mentioned the awards were generally given then to WS players so dispite much better #s then Dimaggio 20 / 97 / 315 Williams finished 2nd. Honestly I think the bigger robbery regarding Williams happened in 1942 when dispite some amazing #s 36 / 137 / 356 and leading the league in most offensive catagories including average, OBP, Slg, OPS, OPS+ & TBs, he lost out to the Yankees Joe Gordon 18 / 103 / 322 & the Yankees didn't even win the WS that year.

 

[blgridesagain]

I can't understand why Ruth didn't receive a single MVP vote in '27 and '28, it could very well have been some kind of collusion or bias against the Babe. Those dirty basterds.....lol

As for the Williams/Gordon MVP voting- yes, a couple/few writers held a grudge against him and I've heard there was one particular creep who had a personal ax to grind with Ted.
Ted didn't kiss their butts.....and, unlike today, the Yankee teams/players of those years (late 30s -early 50s) were well liked by the writers...especially Joe D (from what I've heard).
Williams certainly could've/should've won another MVP.

 

[yankeesince59]

...a lot of the problems Ted had with the press and fans were of his own doing. Everything I've ever read pretty much points to Williams being a dick head...DiMaggio too.

 

[Rick2583]

...a lot of the problems Ted had with the press and fans were of his own doing. Everything I've ever read pretty much points to Williams being a dick head...DiMaggio too.

You're right I forgot about Joe Ds guarded personality. Though a little better then Williams he wasn't very friendly either.

 

[yankeesince59]

...I remember reading about a story where the Yankee and Boston owners got shitfaced together one night and agreed to swap DiMaggio for Williams, straight up...the deal was scribbled out on a bar napkin...when they awoke the next morning, after sobering up, both got cold feet.

...but just imagine if that deal had gone through...imagine how much better Joe D's numbers would have been playing at Fenway...and how Ted's probably would have also have improved. at YS.

 

[Messiah717]

The always amazing thing about Dimaggio and most of all Ted Williams is that they gave away prime years to serve their country in war. Could you imagine what numbers Williams would've added to his career stats had he played in 43, 44 & 45? He also lost time to the Korean War as well. He would've had over 700 homers and over 3500 hits at the end of his career. Dimaggio was great but he wasn't Ted Williams. Nobody was.

 

[Rick2583]

The always amazing thing about Dimaggio and most of all Ted Williams is that they gave away prime years to serve their country in war. Could you imagine what numbers Williams would've added to his career stats had he played in 43, 44 & 45? He also lost time to the Korean War as well. He would've had over 700 homers and over 3500 hits at the end of his career. Dimaggio was great but he wasn't Ted Williams. Nobody was.

Mays would've had those kind of numbers also. Then throw in the home runs he lost playing in that windy park in Candlestick which held up a lot of HRs.

 

[yankeesince59]

...rick, I saw something the other day that kinda disproved that theory about Mays and Candlestick...and his home/away splits pretty much confirm it.

 

[yankeesince59]

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Considering, you know, that purely on the merits of the existing statistical record -- well, that and the firsthand accounts of his adventures in center field -- he's one of the three or four greatest players who ever played.

That said, I would be happy to give Mays extra credit for all those extra home runs he should have hit. The only problem is that I can't find them.

Ballpark-wise, we can divide Mays' career into five chapters. I know, I know ... only two chapters come easily to mind. Please bear with me for a moment.

Chapter 1 - The Polo Grounds: Famously short down the lines, famously distant to deepest center field, the Polo Grounds was a lovely place for dead-pull hitters, not so much for gap hitters. Mel Ott was a pull hitter, and hit 323 of his 511 career home runs at the Polo Grounds. Mays not particularly pull-happy, or at least he didn't take particular advantage of those short porches in Harlem; in his Polo Grounds seasons, he hit 94 home runs there and 93 on the road.

Chapter 2 - Seals Stadium: While the Giants waited for their new digs on Candlestick Point, they played in old Seals Stadium for two seasons, during which Mays hit 32 homers at home and 31 on the road.

Chapter 3 - Candlestick (I): In 1960, the Giants moved into Candlestick, which was inhospitable to just about every sort of living creature, including right-handed power hitters. It was 335 feet down the left-field line, 397 feet to left-center, and 420 feet to straightaway center. By contrast, Seals Stadium had been roughly 30 feet closer in left-center, 20 feet closer in center. Willie Mays, the Giants' greatest player and the most famous player in the National League, hit only a dozen home runs in his new home (and 17 on the road). We'll never know how many home runs Mays "lost" to the wind and the spacious dimensions, but it might have been another dozen. It might have seemed twice that. And that's what everyone remembers happening, every year.

Chapter 4 - Candlestick (II): But that isn't the way it was. After just one season, the Giants pulled the fences in. Most dramatically in left- and right-center fields, from 397 feet to 365 feet.

365 feet!

In 1960, there were only 80 home runs hit in Candlestick: 46 by the Giants and 34 by their opponents. In 1961, that number jumped more than 100 percent, to 174 home runs. Wind or no wind, Candlestick went from being one of the toughest home-run parks in the National League to one of the easiest, and it seems unlikely, on the face of it, that Willie Mays wouldn't have taken advantage.

He did. In the five seasons before 1961, Mays hit 163 home runs. From 1961 through 1965, Mays hit 226 home runs and led the league three times. He was not a creation of the suddenly cozy Candlestick; of those 226 homers, 108 came in road games. But after 1960 Candlestick sure doesn't seem to have hurt his power numbers.

Mays hit 37 homers in 1966, and wouldn't top 30 again in his career. In his remaining seasons as a Giant, he usually hit slightly more homers at home than on the road.

Chapter 5 - Shea Stadium: Included only for the sake of completeness. Mays joined the Mets in 1972 and hit 14 home runs over two seasons: seven at Shea, seven on the road.

Mays did lose a significant number of home runs because of his military service in 1952 and '53. It's possible that if not for those missed seasons, he would have broken Ruth's record before Aaron did. When he did play, though, he hit 335 home runs in his home ballparks and 325 on the road. Most players probably do enjoy a slightly larger edge, but Mays played in a particularly tough place for power hitters in just one of his 22 seasons.

Those numbers that we see, unadjusted and unexaggerated, are a pretty fair representation of how good Willie Mays really was. And they're plenty good enough.

 

[blgridesagain]

I heard Mays - during an interview years ago and he said he would get the ball up towards right center field at Candlestick and there was kind of a jet stream that would carry it for a HR. Heard him personally say it.

 

[Rick2583]

I heard Mays - during an interview years ago and he said he would get the ball up towards right center field at Candlestick and there was kind of a jet stream that would carry it for a HR. Heard him personally say it.

There was also a swirling wind in the outfield that held up many balls & even made many balls uncatchable.