Libertarianism in the time of Ebola

[bluefrog]

What do you libertarians think about trying to contain an epidemic like the current ebola outbreak?

Who quarantines them? Who pays for it? Who enforces it? What if they don't want to be quarantined? Can you deny liberty without due process? Are travel bans constitutional?

 

[bluefrog]

I'm not a libertarian but I think private entities are more nimble and able to possibly find coming up with treatments and vaccines that are both effective and safe.

As only governments can deny liberty, they should be the ones to force to quarantine and house the infected. I don't think a travel ban is warranted in the case of ebola since it is not a highly infectios disease. Travel bans could be necessary with more infectious diseases, like if ebola goes airbone. These things absolutely have to be clearly defined to avoid overreaction.

 

[MARIS61]

Libertarians would say ebola is your problem if you get it, so don't get it.

 

[MarAzul]

I'm not a libertarian but I think private entities are more nimble and able to possibly find coming up with treatments and vaccines that are both effective and safe.

As only governments can deny liberty, they should be the ones to force to quarantine and house the infected. I don't think a travel ban is warranted in the case of ebola since it is not a highly infectios disease. Travel bans could be necessary with more infectious diseases, like if ebola goes airbone. These things absolutely have to be clearly defined to avoid overreaction.

How many cases do we need to decide we under reacted? I think back to the last century when my father came to this country, he spent 3 weeks in Ellis Island to insure he was free of infections.
You would have thought it was three years listing to him tell the tale back in the day but I am pretty sure it was only three weeks. He wasn't even coming from an infected area.

Not quite sure what the hell says we have to let everyone in unrestricted from anywhere regardless of the diseases they may have been exposed to?? Seem rather stupid putting the US population at risk for Liberal correctness. It think they probably were a more correct a 100 years ago. Let's see, that was the time of the first liberal democrat president, Woodrow Wilson.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

What do you libertarians think about trying to contain an epidemic like the current ebola outbreak?

Who quarantines them? Who pays for it? Who enforces it? What if they don't want to be quarantined? Can you deny liberty without due process? Are travel bans constitutional?

Government quarantine for the infected.

Restrict travel to and from Ebola striken areas even for humanitarian aid.

It's a public health issue. isolate it aggressively.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Libertarians would say ebola is your problem if you get it, so don't get it.

I don't know what your idea of libertarianism is...I think you're thinking of anarchy.

 

[bluefrog]

How many cases do we need to decide we under reacted? I think back to the last century when my father came to this country, he spent 3 weeks in Ellis Island to insure he was free of infections.
You would have thought it was three years listing to him tell the tale back in the day but I am pretty sure it was only three weeks. He wasn't even coming from an infected area.

Not quite sure what the hell says we have to let everyone in unrestricted from anywhere regardless of the diseases they may have been exposed to?? Seem rather stupid putting the US population at risk for Liberal correctness. It think they probably were a more correct a 100 years ago. Let's see, that was the time of the first liberal democrat president, Woodrow Wilson.

I'm not sure what you're proposing.

Should we quarantine all people coming to the US for 3 weeks?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Nuclear weapons will kill the ebola virus.

 

[bluefrog]

Nuclear weapons will kill the ebola virus.

That sounds like a "big government" solution. And besides it might not evern work. Ebola is only "moderately sensitive to radiation" http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php

 

[riverman]

Sailors and soldiers have transplanted more communicable diseases around the globe than any immigration check point has missed for thousands of years. If you screen Ellis Island style these days, you'd have to screen outgoing as well as incoming. I believe the infected regions should be strictly quarantined but you're fooling yourself if you think any organization can catch viruses or incubated infectious diseases without missing many. Surround victims and quarantine is about the only choice. It's dangerous when a hospital is the battle ground

 

[MarAzul]

I'm not sure what you're proposing.

Should we quarantine all people coming to the US for 3 weeks?

Don't allow people from West Africa to enter the country. Place everyone else that returns from there in Quarantine for the appropriate period. This include anyone coming from anywhere that has been in west Africa within the last 6 weeks. Including Healthcare workers and military.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

Ebola is a national threat, the state and federal governments should treat it accordingly. I have no problem with government spending as long as it's spent wisely and stopping a deadly virus is money well spent.

 

[bluefrog]

Ebola is a national threat, the state and federal governments should treat it accordingly. I have no problem with government spending as long as it's spent wisely and stopping a deadly virus is money well spent.

I think all these points raise more questions than answers.

At what point does a disease or illness become a national threat? The flu is more contagious and kills more than ebola has, yet we don't regularly quarantine people with the flu.

Are Libertarians OK with denying liberty without due process in order to stop an outbreak?

I know I wouldn't be OK with someone forcing me to spend 3 weeks in quarantine just because I visited a different part of the world. Also, fear could drive people to lie about possible exposure negating quarantine process altogether.

If I was infected with a deadly disease I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend my remaining days locked up in a hospital surrounded by people clumsily poking at me with bio-suits.

 

[Denny Crane]

What exactly is the government doing about Ebola that the private sector isn't?

Paul Allen has pledged at least $100M to fight Ebola. He's not the government. I think that when a $billionaire gives back to society like this, it's highly commendable.

The CDC and NIH are adopting rules they learned from private sector organizations like Doctors Without Borders, not vice versa.

Libertarianism is not anarchy, but rather a legal philosophy. The gist is "individual liberty up to the point where someone else is being harmed."

In the case of Ebola or other highly infectious and lethal diseases, it is someone else being harmed. The state governments probably should have the ability to quarantine people - it's not the same thing as incarceration. The government should also cover the patients' costs if they are mandating quarantine and they lose time at work, etc.

Before you have the government step in, you better have good reason that the private sector cannot deal with it better. And it can.

 

[MarAzul]

What exactly is the government doing about Ebola that the private sector isn't?

Paul Allen has pledged at least $100M to fight Ebola. He's not the government. I think that when a $billionaire gives back to society like this, it's highly commendable.

The CDC and NIH are adopting rules they learned from private sector organizations like Doctors Without Borders, not vice versa.

Libertarianism is not anarchy, but rather a legal philosophy. The gist is "individual liberty up to the point where someone else is being harmed."

In the case of Ebola or other highly infectious and lethal diseases, it is someone else being harmed. The state governments probably should have the ability to quarantine people - it's not the same thing as incarceration. The government should also cover the patients' costs if they are mandating quarantine and they lose time at work, etc.

Before you have the government step in, you better have good reason that the private sector cannot deal with it better. And it can.

Exactly. The governments only role in this effort should be the enforcement of travel restrictions, enforcement of quarantine and support the cost of quarantine. I suppose you could add, encourage private enterprise to take up the battle. Perhaps a tax incentive.
The government should leave policies of fairness and equity to god.

 

[bluefrog]

What exactly is the government doing about Ebola that the private sector isn't?

Until very recently most of the funding for R&D for Ebola treatments was coming from government (thanks Cheney!).

A company just couldn't sell enough of the cure to be profitable, especially to poor African countries.

 

[Denny Crane]

Until very recently most of the funding for R&D for Ebola treatments was coming from government (thanks Cheney!).

A company just couldn't sell enough of the cure to be profitable, especially to poor African countries.

How much funding?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/ebola-vaccine-race-is-on

Last week Johnson & Johnson also announced it was investing $200m in developing a two-step Ebola vaccine together with Denmark-based biotechnology company Bavarian Nordic.

 

[MARIS61]

What exactly is the government doing about Ebola that the private sector isn't?

Paul Allen has pledged at least $100M to fight Ebola. He's not the government.

Your naivete' knows no bounds.

 

[Denny Crane]

Your naivete' knows no bounds.

Sorry, but I don't believe your theory.

 

[bluefrog]

How much funding?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/ebola-vaccine-race-is-on

Last week Johnson & Johnson also announced it was investing $200m in developing a two-step Ebola vaccine together with Denmark-based biotechnology company Bavarian Nordic.

About $500M

 

[Denny Crane]

About $500M

That's not money spent on Ebola research. It's money spent on epidemiology research of all kinds.

It's looking more like the government medical agencies spend several $billions a year and a lot of it is on really silly stuff like lesbian obesity, massaging rabbits, jazzercize, and the like.

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/10/17/here...unded-instead-of-developing-an-ebola-vaccine/

 

[bluefrog]

That's not money spent on Ebola research. It's money spent on epidemiology research of all kinds.

Did you read the link? You're clearly wrong on this.

 

[Denny Crane]

I read the link. They don't break the spending down so you can tell how much specifically for Enola and not for other infectious diseases as well.

The writer is pulling numbers out his ass. So to speak.

 

[Denny Crane]

I read the link. They don't break the spending down so you can tell how much specifically for Enola and not for other infectious diseases as well.

The writer is pulling numbers out his ass. So to speak.

Let me put it another way... I don't think a google docs spreadsheet with 10 numbers added up in it is a good source for the data. Ya know?

That's what your article links to.

 

[barfo]

I read the link. They don't break the spending down so you can tell how much specifically for Enola and not for other infectious diseases as well.

The writer is pulling numbers out his ass. So to speak.

That's a weird thing to say. The writer's name is Katie, so she's probably a her not a him.
But anyway, she says:

A spokeswoman for the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases provided a breakdown of the agency’s Ebola research since 2003, including vaccine-specific expenses.

So, do you think the author is lying about that, or fudged the numbers she got, or do you think the NIAID spokesman was wrong?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

That's a weird thing to say. The writer's name is Katie, so she's probably a her not a him.
But anyway, she says:



So, do you think the author is lying about that, or fudged the numbers she got, or do you think the NIAID spokesman was wrong?

barfo

I think much of the money spent was dual (or more than dual) purpose. Like for Ebola and Plague and quite a few other infectious diseases. They're not going to build labs and clinics and emergency facilities separate for each of those things. They're going to build one set and treat whatever comes their way from those facilities.

The government is trying to cover its ass by saying it spent more. And democrats are trying to make it look like funding was cut due to sequester.

Meanwhile, we have $300M+ in commitments specifically directed to Ebola cure and treatment from Mr. Allen and J&J. There's probably much more in the private sector than those two.

 

[barfo]

I think much of the money spent was dual (or more than dual) purpose. Like for Ebola and Plague and quite a few other infectious diseases.

Yeah, you think that, but you don't have any evidence to support your position, do you?

Hmm, didn't think so.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Yeah, you think that, but you don't have any evidence to support your position, do you?

Hmm, didn't think so.

barfo

No, the author of that article doesn't have any evidence.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-about-ebola-funding-111820.html#.VFDhpodFNmg

And

http://www.hhs.gov/open/recordsandreports/prevention/index.html
(Doesn't even mention Ebola, LOL)

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.ibtimes.com/ebola-outbre...-funded-more-us-government-big-pharma-1674182

According to government records, U.S. agencies have spent more than $170 million on contracts and grants to companies and medical schools doing research on dangerous hemorrhagic fevers like the Marburg virus and Lassa fever, with another $91 million specifically allocated to Ebola.

(Since 2001)

 

[barfo]

No, the author of that article doesn't have any evidence.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-about-ebola-funding-111820.html#.VFDhpodFNmg

And

http://www.hhs.gov/open/recordsandreports/prevention/index.html
(Doesn't even mention Ebola, LOL)

Your evidence is an op-ed by Bobby Jindal? Give me a break.

And the second thing appears to be one part of our overall spending, not the entirety.

barfo